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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I joined this forum in hopes of finding more people who are interested in non-speciesist ethics and animal rights from an abolitionist perspective. I am a vegetarian trying to go vegan.
 

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You know Im pretty sure there is also a Abolitionist Approach forum as well. (As long as you are willing to not question Francione or present any alternative philosophical or practical approach to veganism.)
 

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Originally Posted by SkepticalVegan View Post

You know Im pretty sure there is also a Abolitionist Approach forum as well. (As long as you are willing to not question Francione or present any alternative philosophical or practical approach to veganism.)
I've done this on more than one occasion with no ill effects.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I don't have a problem with making incremental improvements. Using the word abolitionist lets people know what the end goal is, though.
 

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Originally Posted by Nobilis of Wind View Post

I don't have a problem with making incremental improvements. Using the word abolitionist lets people know what the end goal is, though.
As 'abolitionism' is defined by Francione and his followers, though, a lot depends on what those incremental improvements are. If they are about incremental vegan advocacy, that's fine, or maybe about incrementally banning whole practices; but incremental improvements in animals' living conditions are decidedly non-abolitionist according to his view.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Yes, I'm in agreement that free-range livestock is a waste of time. What would you suggest I say if not abolitionism, then? I am against the property status of animals. It's pretty clear they took the name from the slavery abolitionists, so I don't think they reserve the right to the word. However, if I can express myself more clearly, what should I say?
 

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Originally Posted by Nobilis of Wind View Post

Yes, I'm in agreement that free-range livestock is a waste of time. What would you suggest I say if not abolitionism, then? I am against the property status of animals. It's pretty clear they took the name from the slavery abolitionists, so I don't think they reserve the right to the word. However, if I can express myself more clearly, what should I say?
Anyone is free to use whatever word they want to, I'm just saying Francione and his followers were the ones who, I think, introduced the term 'abolitionism' into AR discourse and favor a specific definition.

Personally, I don't call myself anything, except "AR advocate" in some circumstances. I usually express my viewpoint in various ways, depending on the context, so I could mention opposing the property status like you did, or being opposed to animal exploitation, or objectification etc.

But going back to your question in the OP, this forum has a lot of vegans, and maybe a handful of active members might be abolitionist in Francione's sense; a much greater number of them are abolitionist in the minimal sense of just wanting animal exploitation to be abolished (this is the group where I belong to too). And then some others are not for animal rights at all but only for animal welfare, and so debate ensues.

Other forums, such as AA, are exclusively for people who already support animal rights in a strong sense, but personally I like debating with people with clearly different views from my own, so that's why I've stayed here.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobilis of Wind View Post

I joined this forum in hopes of finding more people who are interested in non-speciesist ethics and animal rights from an abolitionist perspective. I am a vegetarian trying to go vegan.
Welcome!
What part are you struggling with? Is it cheese or eggs or what? How can we help?
 

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OK, so it sounds like it's about convenience more than anything else.

For going out to eat, try to think outside the box. First, start trying cuisines that are new to you. Most cultures have at least one food item that is made traditionally vegan. Some have many vegan dishes. And some cuisines have many dishes that are easily converted into vegan dishes. So start by stepping outside your comfort zone a bit and exploring new cuisines. Whenever in doubt about what something is, just ask.

Also... many restaurants have vegan options even if they dont put them on the menu... sometimes even if they don't realize it! So the first step is to always ask your food server if they have anything vegan. You may need to clarify what vegan means and say "no meat, no dairy, no eggs" or even "no fish, no chicken" but often there is something they can make you. If you're struggling with getting your food server to understand, ask if there's anyone else who can help (another server or the chef).

Lastly about going out to eat: learn to scan a menu for ingredients rather than dishes. Once you can figure out what they have in the kitchen, it can be easier to ask for something to be made special for you. For example, you might see baked potatoes as a side for steaks and you might see pasta with meat sauce and you might see steamed broccoli as a side... then you could ask for some plain pasta with a bit of olive oil, garlic, and broccoli... or you could ask for a baked potato with broccoli on top.

As far as cooking at home goes, set yourself up for success. Find a couple easy recipes that work for you. Here is a good blog for doing that: http://theveganstoner.com/
You can buy stuff that's not available locally online. Here's one option: http://www.veganessentials.com/

Hope you can find other help/friends/support/etc. here at VB
 

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Originally Posted by Nobilis of Wind View Post

I'm specifically hoping to find people who are against feeding their animals meat and against desexing.
I think you will find that difficult. I am the only person I know who is against desexing. While I would really like to see a world in which no animals are bred for human companionship at all, meanwhile, some of the animals we have have to be fed meat, as they are obligate carnivores and can't do without it. It's a real moral dilemma.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
It's a moral dilemma for the animals. It's simple for humans. Don't decide some animals are more important than others by buying meat and being more directly responsible for the deaths of animals than simply not having a carnivorous pet.
 

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Anyone is free to use whatever word they want to, I'm just saying Francione and his followers were the ones who, I think, introduced the term 'abolitionism' into AR discourse and favor a specific definition.
You could say they more popularized it as terms for a very narrow interpretation of a particular philosophical approach. But Francione wasn't the first one to call himself an abolitionist, PETA and the ALF also use the term and it would apply to many other rights-based activists.
I look at the over-all rights based approach as "little" a" abolitionism, while Francione's particular brand is as "big A"

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It's simple for humans. Don't decide some animals are more important than others by buying meat and being more directly responsible for the deaths of animals than simply not having a carnivorous pet.
This might work if you could wave a magic wand and make every domestic animal disappear. But the situation you describe is simply one where people should refuse to rescue animals from shelters because they would then might be obligated to feed them meat. If by this you mean that its better that the shelter euthanize such animals, well you might actually have an argument, but it would very much be a utilitarian one (which as a utilitarian not even I would agree with).

I understand how being opposed to de-sexing logically follows from a dentalogical approach. But we should really consider what is more important to us (or rather other sentient life), rote obedience to abstract principles and duties or the actual real-world effects of our individual actions? De-sexing is a low-risk procedure and in addition to helping reduce domestic animal populations in number, also has various positive health benefits and oftentimes statistically increase average lifespans and reduce incidence of diseases that cause suffering.

So a question for SomebodyElse & Nobilis of Wind, given your position on de-sexing, what is your position on vaccinating animals?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Vaccinations do not mutilate animals. If the animal understood what the purpose of them is, then they would almost certainly get them.

I actually am saying do not rescue obligate carnivore animals unless you plan on feeding them a vegan diet or letting them hunt for their own food. I'm also against kennels as they currently are. I am saying that animals should be left alone except when they have become a threat to someone. I do not believe ends justify means, and desexing is mutilating animals who have not threatened anyone. Kenneling animals who have not threatened anyone is also coercion which would not be tolerated if done to humans, so it is speciesist.
 

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Originally Posted by Nobilis of Wind View Post

It's a moral dilemma for the animals. It's simple for humans. Don't decide some animals are more important than others by buying meat and being more directly responsible for the deaths of animals than simply not having a carnivorous pet.
No, you misunderstand. There is no moral dilemma for animals. They are amoral. It is a dilemma of human practice. The animals are screwed no matter what we decide to do.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I don't subscribe to Kant's view of moral agency. I think it's speciesist to say that the actions of animals are outside the realm of morals. Is it based on anything besides the fact that they don't speak to us or wear clothes like us?
 

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Vaccinations do not mutilate animals.
could you define what you mean by "mutilate" and why it is a central ethical point (or is there a deeper reason why mutilation is wrong...like suffering)

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If the animal understood what the purpose of them is, then they would almost certainly get them.
The same could be said for sterilization, plenty of people get medical procures done (even at higher personal risk) for sterilization as well. Heck, even a dominate dog, if it understood the intended psychological effects of ear pinning, might opt for the procedure to look more "tough". (not that Im advocating cosmetic ear pinning)

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Kenneling animals who have not threatened anyone is also coercion which would not be tolerated if done to humans, so it is speciesist.
I think the betrays a naive view of what speciesism and anti-speciesism means. Its not about equal treatment, or else a dog's right to vote would be on the table, rather its about equal consideration of interests. The key here is that different individual both within and between species have differing interests and cognitive capacities.
While animal control programs were originally set up largely for the purpose of rabies and disease control, they have since shifted their focus to a dual purpose of promoting public safety and animal welfare. Domestic animals are not kenneled as a form of coercion, but rather as public safety measure and partly to protect their own interests. The incidence of debilitating diseases are much higher in stray animals and the average life span is much lower.
I got plenty of problems with the current animal shelter system, but so far most alternatives leave a greater number of animals worse off in the long run.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Not many people sign up to be spayed or neutered.

Public safety should only be an issue when an animal has become a threat. Putting all strays in animal shelters is preemptive coercion. The fact that I'm an anarchist might help you understand my position.
 
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