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<p class="p1">You know rights, those things that allow humans freedom while other non-human animals behind bars, chained and sacraficed... <b>Is this fair?</b></p>
<p class="p2"> </p>
<p class="p1"><b>Check out this interesting blog on the subject</b>: "When the topic of rights is brought up, we automatically think of human rights and more than likely, our own. Or maybe we think back to when the rights of humans were based on their skin color or appearance. And while that’s great that we acknowledge the rights that our species has as a whole, we are still missing the bigger picture. What about the rights of non-human animals? Don’t animals suffer in a similar way to the way slaves suffered back from the 1300s until the 1800s? Yet still forms of slavery exist today and they are not only enslaving humans but a majority of animals!"</p>
<p class="p1"><b> </b></p>
<p class="p1">To read the full blog go <a href="http://www.empathyforanimals.org/human-rights-vs-animal-rights.html" target="_blank">here</a>.</p>
<p class="p2"> </p>
<p class="p1">Hope you like it! :)</p>
 

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I ♥ Vegan Guys ◕‿◕
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<p>I always say to people, there is no reason you can't care about both humans and animals. That seems to get them to hush up. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Even with people who still think humans are more important, I say, yeah, that's understandable, but in, so , you can still care about animals and want their overall well being. Also, as a quote somewhere said. What can meat eaters possible be doing for humans that warrants the murder of sentient beings. We have already established that we can feed more people on a veg diet. (though I don't think some are willing to admit that message)</p>
 
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Impeach the gangster
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<p>We are so closely related to the animals that hurting them is like harming ourselves.</p>
 

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There are important differences between "human rights" and "animal rights" issues. Though in both cases you can ask questions like "Is it okay to do X to Y", questions about freedom don't translate well. The pigs on a pig farm can't be given their freedom back, its been genetically stripped from them.<br><br>
As a side note, its amusing that people think they enjoy more freedoms today than "slaves" in the past.
 

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Impeach the gangster
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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>logic</strong> <a href="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217801"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
There are important differences between "human rights" and "animal rights" issues. Though in both cases you can ask questions like "Is it okay to do X to Y", questions about freedom don't translate well. The pigs on a pig farm can't be given their freedom back, its been genetically stripped from them.</div>
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<p> </p>
<p>Pigs can be given their freedom back. Nothing is forever. There's no fundamental difference between animal rights and human rights, except from the point of view of a bigot, who uses technicalities to justify his discriminations.</p>
<p> </p>
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
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<div>As a side note, its amusing that people think they enjoy more freedoms today than "slaves" in the past.</div>
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<p> </p>
<p>Very philosophical, but I'm of the opinion that nihilism is for the lazy, and is part of the problem.</p>
 

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<div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217801" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>logic</strong> <a href="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217801"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif"></a><br><br>
~snip~ The pigs on a pig farm can't be given their freedom back, its been genetically stripped from them. ~snip~</div>
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Yes they can.<br><hr class="bbcode_rule">
<a href="http://blog.mlive.com/flintjournal/outdoors/2007/11/domestic_pigs_quickly_revert_t.html" target="_blank">http://blog.mlive.com/flintjournal/outdoors/2007/11/domestic_pigs_quickly_revert_t.html</a><br><br>
"...Some are domestic hogs or hybrid breeds. There have even been reports of Vietnamese pot bellies and other pets gone feral."Any pig that gets out can revert back in a matter of months to a state where it can exist in the wild," said Brown. "It will get hairy, grow tusks and get aggressive. They're so good at adapting, and with their scavenging nature, they can get by pretty much anywhere....""<br>
_____________<br>
And<br>
_________<br>
<a href="http://www.dec.ny.gov/pubs/85018.html" target="_blank">http://www.dec.ny.gov/pubs/85018.html</a>
<hr class="bbcode_rule">
And this:<br>
<a href="https://ferrebeekeeper.wordpress.com/2010/11/12/feral-pigs/" target="_blank">https://ferrebeekeeper.wordpress.com/2010/11/12/feral-pigs/</a><br>
..."The former is big and pink and tailor- crafted by human to be easily controlled and scrumptious on the table.  However, domestic pigs keep the smarts of their wild kin.  They are the cleverest creature in the barnyard except for the farmer (usually) and that’s saying something considering how cunning goats are.<br><br>
Thanks to their intelligence and their strength, farm pigs sometimes get away from us. Within only a few generations, domestic pigs return to their wild type—bristly, furtive, and angry. <br><br>
There are feral pigs just about everywhere humankind has been except for the frigid polar regions.  The creatures spread across the entire Pacific Ocean on the canoes of intrepid sea-farers and on isolated islands they have sometimes outlasted their hearty tenders: even in the modern world there are islands with pigs but no humans.<br><br>
Domestic Pig<br><br>
As invaders, feral pigs are immensely successful.  They flourish in Australia, North and South America, Asia, Africa, and on innumerable islands.  Swine are omnivorous grazers.  Their tremendous sense of smell, along with their strength, smarts, and speed, allows them to run roughshod over unprepared ecosystems..."
 

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<div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217832" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>LedBoots</strong> <a href="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217832"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif"></a><br><br>
"...Some are domestic hogs or hybrid breeds. There have even been reports of <b>Vietnamese pot bellies and other pets</b> gone feral."Any pig that gets out can revert back in a matter of months to a state where it can exist in the wild," said Brown.</div>
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See the bold text and note that I said "pigs on a pig farm"....I wasn't talking about pet pigs.<br><br>
The pigs raised for meat have been pretty dramatically transformed and what you're citing is in agreement with what I've said. You can't take a pig from a pig farm and reintroduce it into the wild and trying to breed back wild features isn't saving the pigs on the pig farm. They have, like I said, been genetically enslaved and there is no helping that. I would add as well that most pigs on pig farms suffer from retardation or psychological issues due to the conditions in the farm, so reintroduction even if their genes were amenable to such wouldn't be possible for those particular animals anyways.
 

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<div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217806" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Capstan</strong> <a href="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217806"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif"></a><br><br>
Pigs can be given their freedom back. Nothing is forever.</div>
</div>
How do you give a pig on a pig farm his/her freedom back? The fact that you can over many generations selectively breed the pigs (funny idea of freedom) back into an animal that can in principle survive in the wild...isn't giving freedom to any pig that finds himself/herself in a factory farm today.<br><div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217806" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Capstan</strong> <a href="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217806"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif"></a><br><br>
Very philosophical, but I'm of the opinion that nihilism is for the lazy, and is part of the problem.</div>
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Well....I am pretty lazy. But I didn't have nihilism, or philosophy for that matter, in mind....instead anthropology/sociology. How exactly you define "slavery" in connection to human culture isn't all that straightforward and when you start to look at the details you find something interesting.....yesterdays "slaves" aren't too different than today's supposedly free "wage laborers". But that is a much different topic....
 

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<div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217869" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>logic</strong> <a href="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217869"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif"></a><br><br><div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217832" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>LedBoots</strong> <a href="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217832"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif"></a><br><br>
"...Some are domestic hogs or hybrid breeds. There have even been reports of <b>Vietnamese pot bellies and other pets</b> gone feral."Any pig that gets out can revert back in a matter of months to a state where it can exist in the wild," said Brown.</div>
</div>
See the bold text and note that I said "pigs on a pig farm"....I wasn't talking about pet pigs.<br><br>
The pigs raised for meat have been pretty dramatically transformed and what you're citing is in agreement with what I've said. You can't take a pig from a pig farm and reintroduce it into the wild and trying to breed back wild features isn't saving the pigs on the pig farm. They have, like I said, been genetically enslaved and there is no helping that. I would add as well that most pigs on pig farms suffer from retardation or psychological issues due to the conditions in the farm, so reintroduction even if their genes were amenable to such wouldn't be possible for those particular animals anyways.</div>
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You just chose the part of my post that went along with your beliefs. Did you not see this part?<br><br>
"..Uncooked and on the hoof, the pig is amazing…and also alarming. The familiar Eurasian swine has two manifestations: domesticated (Sus scrofa domestica) and wild (Sus scrofa).  The former is big and pink and tailor crafted by human to be easily controlled and scrumptious on the table.  However, domestic pigs keep the smarts of their wild kin.  They are the cleverest creature in the barnyard except for the farmer (usually) and that’s saying something considering how cunning goats are.<br><br>
Thanks to their intelligence and their strength, farm pigs sometimes get away from us. Within only a few generations, domestic pigs return to their wild type—bristly, furtive, and angry. "
 

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<div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217801" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>logic</strong> <a href="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217801"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif"></a><br><br>
There are important differences between "human rights" and "animal rights" issues. Though in both cases you can ask questions like "Is it okay to do X to Y", questions about freedom don't translate well. The pigs on a pig farm can't be given their freedom back, its been genetically stripped from them.<br><br>
As a side note, its amusing that people think they enjoy more freedoms today than "slaves" in the past.</div>
</div>
<br>
It's not a matter of "rights" it's a matter of equal consideration for interests to all animals. In that respect, there is no difference between issues.<br><br><br>
I always think it's silly when vegans or omnis say, "Animal rights". We're not going to give a horse the right to vote or own property, what we mean is "I will considering your interests as I would consider another human's interests".
 

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<p>I'd say animals have rights that are based on their interests.</p>
 

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<div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217881" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>LedBoots</strong> <a href="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217881"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif"></a><br><br>
You just chose the part of my post that went along with your beliefs. Did you not see this part?</div>
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Yes, I saw that part and its not particularly accurate.... its not even clear what they are saying. You can't undone thousands of years of selective breeding in a few generations. But you are just citing a random blog post.... Not all pig breeds are the same and as I pointed out I was only talking about the breeds that people happen to raise for meat. But here there are differences, the breeds used by factory farms are going to differ than what you see on small family farms. Also, as mentioned, regardless of the underlying genetics pigs on factory farms are going to suffer from retardation, etc...making the idea of a great escape outlandish.<br><br>
Regardless, there is no way to save the pigs that find themselves in factory farms. They are retarded and highly altered and trying to reverse their selective breeding makes little sense given that there are still wild pigs.
 

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<div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217885" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>River</strong> <a href="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217885"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif"></a><br><br>
I always think it's silly when vegans or omnis say, "Animal rights". We're not going to give a horse the right to vote or own property, what we mean is "I will considering your interests as I would consider another human's interests".</div>
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How exactly do you determine the interests of non-human animals? A lot of people have pets which are often locked away in small apartments (e.g., cats), did they ever consult the cat on this situation? Is this situation in the best interest of the cat....or is it just in the interests of the cat "owner"? How do you resolve this? In fact, what exactly does it mean to have a pet? Some sort of ownership, but what does it mean to own another animal? Did the animal ever sign a bill of sale forging his/her rights?
 

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<p>human rights are a subset of animal rights<br><br>
also,</p>
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
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<div>I'd say animals have rights that are based on their interests.</div>
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<p> bingo</p>
 

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<p>I am an ethical vegan but I think a rejection of speciesism is simply unrealistic. We need resources and land. We will compete for those with animals. If we need to build residential buildings we will build it on land previously occupied by animals. But we would not build it on land occupied by humans without some sort of compensation. We need wood and minerals and food. We will kick animals from their home and take their land and resources. If there was no artificial B12 we would consume animal products yet if some humans could produce it we would not be willing to consume human products. I think there are many cases which show that we would give much more consideration to humans than animals and we would probably not survive if we did give animals the same consideration, or we would be really mean to humans.</p>
<p>Yes I think we should show compassion to animals but I don’t think we can afford to not be speciesists (I guess it depends on the definition of speciesism).</p>
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Cato</strong> <a href="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217986"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><p>I am an ethical vegan but I think a rejection of speciesism is simply unrealistic. We need resources and land. We will compete for those with animals. If we need to build residential buildings we will build it on land previously occupied by animals. But we would not build it on land occupied by humans without some sort of compensation. We need wood and minerals and food. We will kick animals from their home and take their land and resources. If there was no artificial B12 we would consume animal products yet if some humans could produce it we would not be willing to consume human products. I think there are many cases which show that we would give much more consideration to humans than animals and we would probably not survive if we did give animals the same consideration, or we would be really mean to humans.</p>
<p>Yes I think we should show compassion to animals but I don’t think we can afford to not be speciesists (I guess it depends on the definition of speciesism).</p>
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<p>I think the overwhelming majority of cases involving kicking animals from their home to take their land and resources is unjustified without question since it is clearly not usually done for any sort of "necessity" by any reasonable definition of the term like when we tear down forests to create grazing land for food animals or land for animal feed or when we overpopulate and over-consume and make all these matters worse. In most cases, we do not even seriously consider the interests of other animals, we just arrogantly assume the right to exploit others and their values as resources for us.</p>
 

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<p>We need resources. If we want wood tables or doors or homes or paper we must cut down trees. Perhaps we should use something else instead of wood. Where is that other thing going to come from? We need metals, so we build mines. More often than not there were sentient beings using the land. We need oil and coal so we take the land and use it for our interests. We need farmland so we take it, or took it before. We need roads so we build on the wilderness. If our population is increasing we could simply increase the density of the buildings instead of building on new land. We can first tolerate two persons sharing a room and then three, ..., and then 8, ..., and then 16, ... Where does it end? At some point it will be so inconvenient that we would not tolerate it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>We can often reduce the amount of land we take from animals by tolerating greater inconvenience but we can never eliminate it.</p>
<p> </p>
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Ajswara</strong> <a href="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217990"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><p>I think the overwhelming majority of cases involving kicking animals from their home to take their land and resources is unjustified without question since it is clearly not usually done for any sort of "necessity" by any reasonable definition of the term like when we tear down forests to create grazing land for food animals or land for animal feed or when we overpopulate and over-consume and make all these matters worse. In most cases, we do not even seriously consider the interests of other animals, we just arrogantly assume the right to exploit others and their values as resources for us.</p>
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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>River</strong> <a href="/t/139872/human-rights-vs-animal-rights#post_3217885"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
It's not a matter of "rights" it's a matter of equal consideration for interests to all animals. In that respect, there is no difference between issues.<br><br><br>
I always think it's silly when vegans or omnis say, "Animal rights". We're not going to give a horse the right to vote or own property, what we mean is "I will considering your interests as I would consider another human's interests".</div>
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<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I do so love semantics!<br><br>
I think the word "rights" <strong>is</strong> appropriate for what we mean. <br><br>
A 'right' in our modern context, is ethics made solid/into legislation.<br><br>
You're correct, in that we wouldn't give a horse the right to vote or own property. We don't give those rights to children in our society either. Are children without rights?</p>
<p><br>
No. They just have a different set of rights, that in many ways mirror adult's rights, but they're not the same. I think it's possible to come up with such a set for animals.<br>
 </p>
 
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