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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><b>Manitoba will soon be the first province in Canada to ensure none of the clothes it buys are produced in sweatshops.</b> The move follows five-years of lobbying on the issue by a number of groups and individuals, including the Manitoba Federation of Labour. Resolutions on the topic have been passed at three Manitoba NDP Conventions in the last five years.<br><br><br><br>
The new policy is expected to go into effect sometime this fall. As most labour activists know, sweatshop is a term used to describe garment factories paying extremely low wages, without much heed, if any, to workplace safety. Often, child labourers are employed in them. These factories are usually, but not always, located in Third World Countries.<br><br>
The Manitoba government spends an average of $1.6 million a year on clothing, including uniforms for security guards, prison guards and natural resource officers, as well as on clothing for inmates at provincial jails, and safety clothing such as work gloves and lab coats.</div>
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<br><br><br><a href="http://www.mfl.mb.ca/news15.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.mfl.mb.ca/news15.shtml</a><br><br><br><br>
The City of Vancouver has a similar policy:<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">The Canadian Labour Congress has described "no sweat" as follows: "Retailers and manufacturers are increasingly outsourcing the manufacture of their apparel products, searching the globe for the lowest waged production facilities and the most lax enforcement of labour regulations; and this race to the bottom is negatively affecting the jobs and bargaining power of Canadian organized garment workers and encouraging the spread of sweatshop practices in Canada; and <b>employers purchase a significant amount of apparel products, including staff uniforms, and could therefore help eliminate sweatshop abuses by requiring that those products are made under humane working conditions, preferably in union shops.</b> "<br><br><br><br><br><br><b>Fair Trade principles address the purchase of agricultural products, primarily coffee, tea, cocoa and sugar grown in Latin America, Africa and Asia.</b> Transfair Canada states that "Canadian importers and distributors must follow certain criteria: pay a set minimum price that covers the costs of production, advance payments or extend credit to producers to help avoid debt while financing next year's production, agree to longer term trading relationships that provide producers with added security to plan for the future and promote sustainable production practices." Sustainable practices would include "shade grown" coffee plants grown with organic farming methods.</div>
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<br><br><br><a href="https://www.vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20040622/a17.htm" target="_blank">https://www.vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cc...040622/a17.htm</a><br><br><br><br>
and:<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">At the University of Toronto, Students Against Sweatshops-Canada succeeded in negotiating a code of conduct for clothes manufactured that bear the name of the storied institution. <b>Since 1999, companies producing clothes for the University of Toronto (U of T) have to ensure that every garment is produced under humane working conditions and agree to independent monitoring of factory conditions.</b></div>
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<br><br><br><br><br><a href="http://www.oxfam.ca/what-we-do/campaigns/no-sweat/ethical-purchasing-policies-gain-support" target="_blank">http://www.oxfam.ca/what-we-do/campa...s-gain-support</a><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
So two questions:<br><br><br><br>
1. Do human rights enter into your understanding of veganism? Why or why not?<br><br><br><br>
2. Do you know of universities, cities, or provinces/states in other countries that are becoming sweatshop free and/or are purchasing fair-trade?<br><br><br><br>
Eta: <b>I'm changing question one to:</b><br><br><br><br>
1. If you have chosen to become vegan for ethical reasons do you also try to avoid products that would involve human exploitation?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Mr. Sun</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
1. Do human rights enter into your understanding of veganism? Why or why not?<br></div>
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I've argued that treating 'vegan' as some kind of a synonym for 'ethical' -- which I think we get closer to if we incorporate all kinds of social causes under the heading of veganism -- will be damaging/misleading because the word would still maintain its previous connotation of 'free of animal products', so that the meanings of "ethical" and "free of animal products" might become to be treated interchangeably (which I don't think should be done, due to the harms that can be caused by production of vegan goods). But on the other hand, making 'veganism' include various social causes would precisely imply -- by adding various requirements for something to be vegan ("free of sweatshop labor", "environmentally sound", etc.) -- that 'free of animal products' is not sufficient for something to be ethical. So I dunno.<br><br><br><br>
What I do know is that I include human rights into <i>animal rights</i>, although the main ideas of animal rights are too limited (being concerned with basic rights to life, freedom of suffering and freedom etc.) to say much about various human problems, so I guess I see it more as a crucial extension of animal rights, rather than an inclusion.<br><br><br><br>
^That was probably a bit confusing <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Mr. Sun</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
1. Do human rights enter into your understanding of veganism? Why or why not?</div>
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I'm with Sevenseas. At least I think I am, if I understood what was written.<br><br><br><br>
The way I see it is that I believe in animal rights (by animal I am including humans in that). Veganism is only one aspect or way to approach my believe in animal rights. Vegan being free of animal products. So in pursuing animal rights, I became a vegan. Veganism in and of itself, does not require rights to ever be brought up.<br><br><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Mr. Sun</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
2. Do you know of universities, cities, or provinces/states in other countries that are becoming sweatshop free and/or are purchasing fair-trade?</div>
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No. Sorry.
 

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Humans are animals and thus fall under any animal rights/welfare agenda I may have. I do as much for humans as I do for the non-human animals.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Mr. Sun</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
1. Do human rights enter into your understanding of veganism? Why or why not?</div>
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no. I am obviously in favour of human rights, so I hope that I can eloquently express what I am about to say and not have anyone take this the wrong way. I don't really have much faith in my ability not to be confusing.<br><br>
I believe that animals should not be used for food/testing/work in a human society because they are not human and therefore their desires etc are different. Animals should be free to live out their lives away from the human system in which they are always the underdog. Although I believe in human rights, I believe that humans should be allowed to live out their lives WITHIN our human system (even if they are hermits, they are still subject to our laws etc). If I were to believe in 'human rights' the same way I believe in 'animal rights' I would find it unethical to buy the products of manual labour by humans, etc. (wow I am using 'etc' a lot in this post). If we were to think about 'animal rights' and 'human rights' in the same way, then buying goods produced by humans in good conditions with good pay would seem to be supporting 'human welfare' rather than 'human rights'. This is why I find the whole thing problematica, and I think it boils down to the fact that even the most extreme-thinking animal rightists know that the rights of animals granted by a human society should not be the same as the rights of humans.<br><br>
I'm not sure I phrased any of that well. I hope one of the 'thinkers' of this forum like sevenseas or mr sun doesn't try to write a response, because I won't understand a word <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p"><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">2. Do you know of universities, cities, or provinces/states in other countries that are becoming sweatshop free and/or are purchasing fair-trade?</div>
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My (sixth form) college (England) is trying to move towards fair trade food/coffee/tea in the cafeteria, and I think many round here are.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>isowish</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
I'm not sure I phrased any of that well. I hope one of the 'thinkers' of this forum like sevenseas or mr sun doesn't try to write a response, because I won't understand a word <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p"></div>
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Translucent existence -- homonymous, disenfranchised fallibilism -- gerontological industrialization? Esophageal absorption, gastrointestinal modality!! Logocentrist demarcation, propulsion performatives.<br><br><br><br><br><br>
On a serious note, humans get paid for their manual labour and they do it out of their free will, being able to choose from a variety of ways to earn a living. It should be a mutually beneficial relationship, whereas animal exploitation is always clearly exploitation, even if the animals get veterinary care and a roof over their heads. When it <i>is</i> the case that humans are in a very uneven exploitative relationship, like in sweatshops, then of course that shouldn't be supported.<br><br><br><br>
(^If you're a commie, you see the above in a different way, of course. But let's assume one isn't a commie.)
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Sevenseas</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Translucent existence -- homonymous, disenfranchised fallibilism -- gerontological industrialization? Esophageal absorption, gastrointestinal modality!! Logocentrist demarcation, propulsion performatives.</div>
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<br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/brood.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":brood:"> it's like being at school! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/sweatdrop.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":sweat:"><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">On a serious note, humans get paid for their manual labour and they do it out of their free will, being able to choose from a variety of ways to earn a living. It should be a mutually beneficial relationship, whereas animal exploitation is always clearly exploitation, even if the animals get veterinary care and a roof over their heads. When it <i>is</i> the case that humans are in a very uneven exploitative relationship, like in sweatshops, then of course that shouldn't be supported.<br><br><br><br>
(^If you're a commie, you see the above in a different way, of course. But let's assume one isn't a commie.)</div>
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I do see the difference between a mutually benificial relationship and exploitation, of course. But plenty of animal welfarists would argue that some animal/human relationships are mutually benificial, and plenty of people would argue that many humans don't REALLY have much choice when it comes to work. I just think that the lines are difficult to draw between exploitive work/mutually benificial relationships are difficult to draw. Which doesn't mean that I think that we shouldn't work towards better conditions for workers.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>isowish</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
But plenty of animal welfarists would argue that some animal/human relationships are mutually benificial, and plenty of people would argue that many humans don't REALLY have much choice when it comes to work. I just think that the lines are difficult to draw between exploitive work/mutually benificial relationships are difficult to draw.</div>
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Yeah well I think of animals, in some ways, as the equivalent of (young) children. If people argue that animals can be used for labor because it's a symbiotic relationship, I would ask whether using young children in the same way would be acceptable and why or why not.<br><br><br><br>
But anyway, I basically agree with your point, as in a previous post I said that a big part of human rights is rather an extension of animal rights than a part of it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Sevenseas</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Translucent existence -- homonymous, disenfranchised fallibilism -- gerontological industrialization? Esophageal absorption, gastrointestinal modality!! Logocentrist demarcation, propulsion performatives.</div>
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Well Sevenseas, you got me to laugh out loud once again. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br><br><br>
I guess my OP wasn't very clear really. I guess I was just wondering if regard for humans was anyway involved in one's thinking on veganism. Bringing "rights" into the question makes it more complicated. For me veganism is about reducing the exploitation of all animals and that includes humans. I just do what I can knowing that I can never be perfectly harmless in my life's choices.<br><br><br><br>
So I guess I'm like Kiz. I'm too tired to try to decifer what Sevenseas originally said in this thread so I'm not sure if I agree with him or not.<br><br><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/huh.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":confused:">
 

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I can say that veganism was a portal through which I stepped and gained a greater appreciation for everything: animals, people, the planet... I'm more active now than ever. Not sure if that answers your OP in any valuable way.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Mr. Sun</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
So I guess I'm like Kiz. I'm too tired to try to decifer what Sevenseas originally said in this thread so I'm not sure if I agree with him or not.</div>
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Well I was saying that human rights enter into my understanding of animal rights, and mentioned arguments for and against including human rights in veganism.
 

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Why would veganism include rights at all?<br><br><br><br>
By looking up vegan in the dictionary or online, the rough definition is something like "one who neither consumes nor uses animal products."<br><br><br><br>
If this is the general usage of the word, then people can become and be a "vegan" for a variety of reasons, health, environmental, or rights (and probably others).<br><br><br><br>
If this is the general usage of the word, why should it be changed to include anything about morals or rights? If I understood what Sevenseas originally wrote, it was comments for and against tying vegan to ethical. Which I think I'm against that connection, because I did not invent or popularize the word. It is merely a label I applied to myself because I fit the definition.<br><br><br><br>
By changing vegan to be ethical, it can lead to confusion, for example the labels on foods. People equating "vegan" with "good for everyone involved." Much like "vegetarians" who also eat fish and/or chicken.<br><br><br><br>
So again, I guess I am for animal rights (including human rights). One way to start acknowledging those rights was for me to become vegan. Vegan being a class of people who stopped using and animal products for a variety of reasons, including rights, health, and/or environmental.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Mr. Sun</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
1. Do human rights enter into your understanding of veganism? Why or why not?<br><br><br></div>
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<br><br><br><b>ANIMAL LIBERATION - HUMAN LIBERATION</b><br><br><br><br>
Doesn't that all sum it up in four neat words?<br><br><br><br>
At our last AR stand up in town, at the occasion of the International Day for Animal Rights, we collected signatures (amongst others) for a Swiss initiative (a unique Swiss political instrument concerned with our system of Direct Democracy) to introduce a new law in Switzerland to ban the export of weapons of war.<br><br><br><br>
When people asked us why we were collecting these signatures because it had nothing to do with animals, we explained rapidly that animals also suffer through wars, but that the main reason was that human animals and non human animals are ALL in the same boat together on this planet, and our mutual freedom walk hand in hand.<br><br><br><br>
I need to point out that in French there are TWO words for the one English word "veganism". "Végétalisme" is used to describe only the dietary aspect, and "véganisme" is used to include also animal rights. So people will say "je suis végétalien(ne)" (I am vegeTALIEN) for food stuff; and "Je suis végan(e)" to describe their whole philosophical and political and ethical views, which include obviously the dietary factor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>epski</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I can say that veganism was a portal through which I stepped and gained a greater appreciation for everything: animals, people, the planet... I'm more active now than ever. Not sure if that answers your OP in any valuable way.</div>
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Yes. That's a good answer. That's what I was wondering: does one becoming vegan also make on consider an issue like sweatshop labour.<br><br><br><br>
I love the example you give Diana. And what a wonderful way to phrase it:<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">When people asked us why we were collecting these signatures because it had nothing to do with animals, we explained rapidly that animals also suffer through wars, but that the main reason was that human animals and non human animals are ALL in the same boat together on this planet, and our mutual freedom walk hand in hand.</div>
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It seems to me that some people say that we should focus on human concerns and not animal concerns. It seems to be that vegans should be seeking to eliminate everything from their lifestyle that would involve exploitation of all animals, including humans. The vegan way seems more complete and fits with my way of thinking.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>nogardsram</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
If this is the general usage of the word, why should it be changed to include anything about morals or rights?</div>
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I've changed the first question in the OP.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Mr. Sun</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
It seems to be that vegans should be seeking to eliminate everything from their lifestyle that would involve exploitation of all animals, including humans.</div>
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If you use the word "all animals", you don't need to say "including humans". Humans are animals. There are three "kingdoms" on the planet earth (that we know of - there are perhaps creatures invisible to us but I wouldn't know this). Animal, vegetable and mineral. I, for instance, belong to the Animal kingdom. Although I do know some humans who I suspect belong to the vegetable kingdom... <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/juggle.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":juggle:">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Mr. Sun</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Yes. That's a good answer. That's what I was wondering: does one becoming vegan also make on consider an issue like sweatshop labour.<br><br><br></div>
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Monsieur Soleil:<br><br><br><br>
It made me rethink SO many things. My relationship to the consumer society; to my friends; to my family; to my cat. (I don't even LIKE to call my cat "my" cat anymore... but old habits die hard. But each time I say "my cat", I remind myself that he is NOT MINE!!!!!!!!!!!)<br><br><br><br>
As I am a convinced non-speceist, I also had to rethink my attitude towards men, women, kids, and the elderly.<br><br><br><br>
Veganism is definitely MUCH more than just what you eat, or what you wear. It is a way of looking at the world through different lenses.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I use "including humans" only because I think the traditional definition of ethical veganism was focused on non-human animals.<br><br><br><br>
I really believe that veganism has also made me rethink so much of my lifestyle. I don't think I ever really regarded human exploitation until I got more and more into vegetarianism and then veganism. And now I'm thinking more and more about all aspects of harming others and how to mitigate that while building positive, life-affirming connections to all of life.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Mr. Sun</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
1. If you have chosen to become vegan for ethical reasons do you also try to avoid products that would involve human exploitation?<br></div>
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2. Do you know of universities, cities, or provinces/states in other countries that are becoming sweatshop free and/or are purchasing fair-trade?<br><br>
[/QUOTE]<br><br><br><br>
1. Yes.<br><br><br><br>
2. The veg*n coffeehouse in which I work purchases only organic and fair trade coffee/espresso. Whole Foods has a similar policy no?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Mr. Sun</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
Eta: <b>I'm changing question one to:</b><br><br><br><br>
1. If you have chosen to become vegan for ethical reasons do you also try to avoid products that would involve human exploitation?</div>
</div>
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Ahh, I guess I misunderstood your original question.<br><br><br><br>
Anyways, I'm not sure this applies to me, since I did not originally become a vegan for ethical reasons (in terms of rights). I did it mostly for environmental and health reasons. Ethical was a small part of that aspect and I was still grappling with the concept of rights for non-human animals at the time.<br><br><br><br>
However, the ethical aspect is important to me now. I do try to avoid products which involve human exploitation, since my main concern now is animal rights in general, but still environmentalism.<br><br><br><br>
So I came at it from a different perspective, but I think I still reached perhaps a similar point of view about human exploitation.
 
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