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I found this and thought I would share.<br><br><a href="http://www.mesacc.edu/~yount/text/engel.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.mesacc.edu/~yount/text/engel.pdf</a><br><br>
The arguments are pretty good I think. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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A well read omni would have counters to those arguments, but some of them carry weight.<br>
-The erosion issue is NOT something I would point out to them because plant agriculture is the #1 source of soil erosion, you could go back and forth with the issue of grain feed vs free range but I doubt you would get anywhere with that one. The reason plant agriculture is more damaging then anamal is because conventional agriculture destroys the root system of a field making it more vulnerable to erosion while free range cattle does not.<br>
-Yes there are some fine vegan athletes they are almost all in speed or endurance based sports, they could argue that in strength based sports omnis outperform vegans by a large margin and they are correct. You don't see any world record setting power lifters or UFC champions on a vegan diet. Call that one a wash.<br>
-The health debate favors vegans by a nice margin, but many simply don't care. Never huts to bring it up though.<br>
-While alot of people honestly don't want to know about the anamal suffering there are plenty more that simply don't know about what happens in factory farms, for all they know their steak was raised in a pasture and died a painless death like how it used to be done. That is a good argument if you have something on hand to show them as an example. I would have never believed it until I saw Earthlings.<br>
I debated all of these points and more with vegans before trying it for myself.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kachok</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3011821"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
A well read omni would have counters to those arguments, but some of them carry weight.<br>
-The erosion issue is NOT something I would point out to them because plant agriculture is the #1 source of soil erosion.</div>
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And a meat eating population requires around 10 times the amount of plant agriculture that a vegan popualtion needs to sustain it.<br><br>
Something to do with animals eating plants that is.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Clueless Git</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3011950"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
And a meat eating population requires around 10 times the amount of plant agriculture that a vegan popualtion needs to sustain it.<br><br>
Something to do with animals eating plants that is.</div>
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That depends on if you are talking about factory farms or free range. Free range require no plowing, chemical fertalizers, pesticides, posions, or traps. I worked on a free range cattle ranch, they never feed them any kind of grains even during the winter. That is a debate you will not win with meat eaters because too many think that those free range anamals are the rule not the factory farm, and in certain parts of the country they are right.
 

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How to argue against stubborn omnivores:<br><br>
premise 1: one fork in one hand<br>
premise 2: another fork in the other hand<br>
premise 3: find the omni's knee area<br>
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conclusion: strike!
 

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Excellent, I always get confronted by my friends who eat meat... not in a nasty way, but it would be nice to build up my back-chat a bit <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kachok</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3011966"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
That depends on if you are talking about factory farms or free range. Free range require no plowing, chemical fertalizers, pesticides, posions, or traps. I worked on a free range cattle ranch, they never feed them any kind of grains even during the winter. That is a debate you will not win with meat eaters because too many think that those free range anamals are the rule not the factory farm, and in certain parts of the country they are right.</div>
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Oh, I actually read the entire essay from where this was summarized from, and the author made it clear that he intends his arguments mostly against the general population that relies heavily on factory-farmed meat.<br><br>
And as for the vegan athletes, I think he just wanted to make a point that you won't necessarily be physically weak without meat, which is a common misconception that non-veg*ns have. I don't think he was trying to make a claim that vegans are physically superior or anything. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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Yeah like I said in some parts of the country. If you ever live in Texas for example you are not likely to ever see I factory farm for beef, I never did and I lived there for many years, but you will see millions of acres of free range cattle land. That is big buisness in the Lone Star State. They even have a specialy adapted breed to thrive free range in the arid west Texas regions. You might know them as longhorns.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kachok</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3011966"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
That depends on if you are talking about factory farms or free range. Free range require no plowing, chemical fertalizers, pesticides, posions, or traps. I worked on a free range cattle ranch, they never feed them any kind of grains even during the winter. That is a debate you will not win with meat eaters because too many think that those free range anamals are the rule not the factory farm, and in certain parts of the country they are right.</div>
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From 2006 (<a href="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1200759,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...200759,00.html</a>):<br><br>
"Pure pasture-raised beef still represents less than 1% of the nation's supply."<br><br>
Unless one is buying beef specifically labled as grass fed, the chances are very slim that that is what one is getting.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Yeah like I said in some parts of the country. If you ever live in Texas for example you are not likely to ever see I factory farm for beef, I never did and I lived there for many years, but you will see millions of acres of free range cattle land. That is big buisness in the Lone Star State. They even have a specialy adapted breed to thrive free range in the arid west Texas regions. You might know them as longhorns.</div>
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Texas does have factory farms and does have industrial feed lots for cattle. Just because they may not be visible from the side of the highway, like pastures are doesn't mean they aren't there. I lived in Texas 12 years, BTW. Many cows are pasture fed some of the time and fed in feed lots at other times. They may be mistaken for being fully free range.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kachok</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3011821"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
-Yes there are some fine vegan athletes they are almost all in speed or endurance based sports, they could argue that in strength based sports omnis outperform vegans by a large margin and they are correct. You don't see any world record setting power lifters or UFC champions on a vegan diet. Call that one a wash.</div>
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From (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_Danzig" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_Danzig</a>):<br><br>
"While Danzig is known as an impressive <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grappler" target="_blank">grappler</a>, having scored 12 of his victories by <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grappling_hold" target="_blank">submission</a>; he has proven himself to be an adept striker, most notably with his KO victory over Joe Stevenson and his TKO victory over former lightweight champion <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takumi_Nakayama" target="_blank">Takumi Nakayama</a>.<br>
After defeating <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royce_Gracie" target="_blank">Royce Gracie</a> black belt Buddy Clinton on August 4, 2006, Danzig increased his winning streak to 12 in a row with a unanimous decision victory over Miletich fighter John Mahlow on September 29 in Calgary, Alberta Canada.<br>
[...]<br>
Accomplishments<br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ultimate_Fighter_6" target="_blank">Ultimate Fighter 6 Winner</a><br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_KOTC_champions#Lightweight_Championship" target="_blank">King of the Cage Lightweight World Championship</a> (1 Time)<br>
4 successful title defenses"<br><br>
No reason a vegan can't be competitive in UFC.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">While alot of people honestly don't want to know about the anamal suffering there are plenty more that simply don't know about what happens in factory farms, for all they know their steak was raised in a pasture and died a painless death like how it used to be done. That is a good argument if you have something on hand to show them as an example. I would have never believed it until I saw Earthlings..</div>
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Agreed.
 

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I fought MMA for 5 years I am very informed on UFC. While Danzig is a good fighter he is far from championship material. He has only won 4 of his past 11 fights. I like him personaly and I like his style but he has never been know to overpower his opponents on the ground like a Matt Hughes or GSP. You will likley never see a pure vegan dominate any weight class in any strength based sport like you see in speed and endurance based sports. Yes there are vegan body builders but that is not strength based as any MMA practitioner will tell you. I have personal fought a steroid pumped body builder in a MMA match and overpowerd him with ease. Power lifting is an even better example because it relies more on raw strength then MMA or any other sport.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kachok</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3012377"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Yeah like I said in some parts of the country. If you ever live in Texas for example you are not likely to ever see I factory farm for beef, I never did and I lived there for many years, but you will see millions of acres of free range cattle land. That is big buisness in the Lone Star State. They even have a specialy adapted breed to thrive free range in the arid west Texas regions. You might know them as longhorns.</div>
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I don't know what Texas ag is like, but here you don't see factory farm beef either. The steers/hfrs get sent to feedlots elsewhere for fattening up after they have been raised on grass over the summer... so even if you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't happening.
 

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No I don't mean judging everything by face value, I mean I know (or used to) several cattle farmers, and even worked on one of those farms. All the way from birth to the butcher I never saw any of the torture that I saw I saw on Earthlings, but that was many years ago, and the southern climate is more suitable for year round cattle grazing. We simply do not get much in the way of freezing temps in the deep south. I would assume things would be much different further north.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kachok</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3011821"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
-Yes there are some fine vegan athletes they are almost all in speed or endurance based sports, they could argue that in strength based sports omnis outperform vegans by a large margin and they are correct. You don't see any world record setting power lifters or UFC champions on a vegan diet. Call that one a wash.</div>
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Not really.<br><br><a href="http://www.mikemahler.com/articles/macdanzig.html" target="_blank">http://www.mikemahler.com/articles/macdanzig.html</a><br><br><a href="http://www.thediscerningbrute.com/2011/08/11/germanys-strongest-man-is-a-vegetarian/" target="_blank">http://www.thediscerningbrute.com/20...-a-vegetarian/</a><br><br>
And veganbobybuilding.com will show you plenty of other examples.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kachok</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3012602"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I fought MMA for 5 years I am very informed on UFC. While Danzig is a good fighter he is far from championship material. He has only won 4 of his past 11 fights. I like him personaly and I like his style but he has never been know to overpower his opponents on the ground like a Matt Hughes or GSP. You will likley never see a pure vegan dominate any weight class in any strength based sport like you see in speed and endurance based sports. Yes there are vegan body builders but that is not strength based as any MMA practitioner will tell you. I have personal fought a steroid pumped body builder in a MMA match and overpowerd him with ease. Power lifting is an even better example because it relies more on raw strength then MMA or any other sport.</div>
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How does Mac Danzig's inability to win a championship prove it is because he is on a vegan diet? Your argument is that no vegan athlete dominates in strength sports is a proof that the vegan diet can't deliver is a pretty big leap, since domination in those sports is also tied to genetic disposition. What I mean is maybe the right vegan hasn't come along, not that the diet is the limiting factor.
 

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Just pointing out a trend, think about the number of amazing vegan runners, cyclists, and triathletes there are and then notice the utter lack of top tier powerlifters amongst other strength focus sports. In the absence of a detailed study I would say that is as good a theory as any. Remember there are two distinct types of muscle tissue it is entirely possable that different diets effect them differently.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kachok</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3012602"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I fought MMA for 5 years I am very informed on UFC. While Danzig is a good fighter he is far from championship material. He has only won 4 of his past 11 fights. I like him personaly and I like his style but he has never been know to overpower his opponents on the ground like a Matt Hughes or GSP.</div>
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You are setting the bar way too high by pointing out he's not a UFC champion or that he doesn't have the power of two of the most dominant fighters in MMA history (Hughes and GSP). He's a 5 time KOTC champion and Ultimate Fighter winner, i.e. better than the vast majority of omni fighters and proof enough for me that veganism shouldn't hold anyone back in MMA as long as they eat smart.<br><br>
In terms of raw probability, one should not expect there to be a vegan UFC champion even if their diet is equally suitable, just because the percentage of fighters who are vegan has got to be so small.
 

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Don't get me wrong I won't take anything away from Danzig, he is ALOT better then I ever was. Last I checked he is the 25th ranked lightweight in the world, not top tier but a solid player by any standards. While not known for remarkable strength he is highly praised for his stamana and intelligence in the cage.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kachok</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3012602"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I fought MMA for 5 years I am very informed on UFC. While Danzig is a good fighter he is far from championship material. He has only won 4 of his past 11 fights. I like him personaly and I like his style but he has never been know to overpower his opponents on the ground like a Matt Hughes or GSP. You will likley never see a pure vegan dominate any weight class in any strength based sport like you see in speed and endurance based sports. Yes there are vegan body builders but that is not strength based as any MMA practitioner will tell you. I have personal fought a steroid pumped body builder in a MMA match and overpowerd him with ease. Power lifting is an even better example because it relies more on raw strength then MMA or any other sport.</div>
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Jake Shields is a lifelong vegetarian and now vegan who was just 1 round away from beating GSP this year <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/wink3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=";)"><br>
Also Nick Diaz is one of the best fighters in the world, though he may only be a vegetarian.
 

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Sheilds just bacame vegan a few months ago, he has not won either of the fights he has been in since going vegan, though I doubt his diet has much to do with that, he is a Gracie Jiu-Jitsu master which relies heavly on leverage for ground control and submissions rather then overpowering your opponent. He has only 3 TKOs and 0 KOs in his career, but 10 submissions all but one of which were chokes.<br>
Diaz is on a nice win streak but he has been playing around in the shallow end of the pool for five years now, he is returning to the UFC to fight the big time players in two weeks, I cannot wait to see him go head to head with BJ Penn who is a very well rounded fighter.
 
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