[Thalia]

This is sort of inspired by the celibacy thread.

How did your ideas about sex change with things like losing your virginity? Different partners? Masturbation? Marriage? Problems? or negative things like abuse or rape? Or maybe just talking with people from different backgrounds may have opened your mind to new ways of thinking.

As a virgin, I just knew I wanted to be safe, with someone I loved, and completely comfortable and wanting the whole thing. I never felt I could ever be pressured into it. I wasn't worried about when I lost it, but I did see it as a rite of passage that would come most likely by the end of my teens.

I think before I was physically intimate with anyone (minus intercourse), sex seemed so out there to me. I couldn't imagine not only being naked with someone, but naked plus all that other stuff!!! But once I started doing stuff like making out, etc. it made sense to me. I was always with people I trusted, and the experience made me much more comfortable with my own body in general. I also didn't feel any huge leap in emotional connection to my boyfriend once we had sex or fooled around, because we were already very emotionally intimate. That's why when I read things that say that having sex will end up crushing you or causing you emotional turmoil, it makes me laugh. Well, maybe sex with false expectations, or with the wrong person, but it wouldn't be the sex per se, but the false expectations, or lack of respect, or coercion or whatever other bad aspect of the relationship led to the the sex that caused the emotional turmoil. I feel like sometimes sex gets blamed for a lot of negative baggage that is really the fault of other issues between people.

In my sexual relationships I have been heartbroken, or crushed, angered, confused, but I have never once thought to myself, "well, if we had been celibate, this wouldn't be so difficult." I see sex as just another form of intimacy with a partner, such as over coming a challenge together, sharing secrets, growing trust, making promises, letting your true personality out. All of those things are just as risky emotionally to me. And they are all just as, if not more so, spiritually fulfilling and sacred.

Sex can be any combination of "special", spiritual, emotional, fun, kinky, recreational, boring, routine, something for your partner when you aren't really into it, for pure self pleasure, reproduction, emotional bonding, learning about your body, stress relief, to feel like an adult, to feel loved, an ego trip, or whatever.

I think of it like food. Sometimes I eat for sustenance, fun, pleasure, or junk, convenience. Sometimes I make a big production out of it. Sometimes it's symbolic, like Thanksgiving. Sometimes it's social. But I don't like to look down on any or most of those reasons, but instead maintain a healthy balance.

 

[Thalia]

all worn out from the celibacy thread?

 

[Skylark]

Yes, my views on sex have evolved over the course of my 23 years. Unlike the "don't talk about it" mood at my parents' house, my friends and I regularly talk about sex and the issues around it. That's now. My friends in middle and high school weren't supposed to talk about it either, so I only caught snippits here and there.

With my parents, the right answer was/is always "Don't have sex before marriage because God says so." And, while I still believe that statement to be true, I'm much more nuanced about it now. It seems to be the general process of growing up that one becomes less black-and-white in one's worldview.

The sentiment at home was such I did not think I could admit out loud to anyone I was really looking forward to sex someday. Maybe this isn't the mood my parents intended to create, and they might be mortified if they ever read this, but that was my perception. Except for the obligatory cut'n'dried "birds and the bees" talk when I was 12, sexuality was nearly entirely ignored. Oh, and you better dress modestly because men and boys have dirty minds and we need to help them out. And don't put yourself in compromising situations.

I did talk to my parents about the lack of talking about sex once last year because I wanted to make things better for my younger sisters. I don't know if they listened in addition to hearing me, but at least I got to respectfully vent about the time when I was 13-14 and pulled the book "The Gift of Sex" off my parents' bookshelf and hid it under my bed so I could read it when no one else was looking. To this day, I clearly remember my mother coming into my room, pulling the book out (how did she know it was there, anyway?!), and telling me I shouldn't read that book until I was married or nearly married. The impression I left with was little girls shouldn't think about such things.

No, being homeschooled did not help matters.

I was a sophomore in college (18) before I found out what oral and anal sex were. That's something else I brought up with my parents when I talked to them about this. My mother's queasy face said nearly as much as her words: "Well, um, that... uh... those things are so... far out there I didn't think to talk about them" is a fair representation of what she said. A few days later she told me some things about her past that help me understand a little why she would be so uncomfortable (which I will not reveal on the Internet because that's her business), but it did not change the overall mood.

I've changed because I now believe it's perfectly acceptable to talk about sex, the issues surrounding it, and overall get a better understanding of how/why people should be careful with it. I still feel uncomfortable answering questions about sex and babies that little kids ask because I don't want to tell them more than their parents want them to know, and it's not my place to interfere with their parenting.

 

[Joe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalia

How did your ideas about sex change with things like losing your virginity? Different partners? Masturbation? Marriage? Problems? or negative things like abuse or rape? Or maybe just talking with people from different backgrounds may have opened your mind to new ways of thinking.

Wow, this is a really big question, and I guess I could write a book about it.

Let me just say that I think it is fair to say that my experience with sexuality has been less wholesome than yours.

Let's take the case of Mark Foley to begin our discussion with. Of course, what he did was wrong and scandalous. But on a deeper level his behavior is typical of how many if not most people deal with sexuality in our society: preach one thing in public, do something entirely different in private. Sexual hypocrisy is the norm. Whited sepulchers surround us.

George Michael has a song that asserts

Quote:

Sex is natural

Sex is Good

I wish I could agree with the simplicity of that assertion, but it seems to me that things are hardly that simple. It seems to me that Freud had it better when he posited Eros or libido as a "life force" that was balanced (if not overmatched) by Thanatos, a destructive force or "death instinct."

The reality of sexuality, it seems to me, is that it is an aspect of the human personality. And the human personality is often afflicted with mental and psychiatric disorders. Sexuality often manifests itself as subject to such disorders--emerging diseased, distorted and perverted.

I think I mentioned before that I have a copy of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM-IV) of the American Psychiatric Association near my desk, along with my dictionaries and other reference books. I think the DSM is essential to understanding human behavior and human sexuality.

I am reminded of the final scene in the original 1968 version of the film Planet of the Apes. Taylor (Charlton Heston) discovers the Statue of Liberty buried up to its neck in the sand, and cries out: "It's a Madhouse! A Madhouse!"

I think he is really talking about our society, and not just the situation portrayed in the film.

If I were to write a book on the topic of this thread, I think its title would be: Eros in the Madhouse.

 

[Jessica Alana]

I don't think I could answer this without getting another mod warning. lol.

 

[nigel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessica Alana

I don't think I could answer this without getting another mod warning. lol.

And I wouldn't be able to make a clever response without a mod warning.

 

[Jessica Alana]

 

[~Wonder]

"Um, I did it all for the nookie" is what I'll write on the wedding thank you notes. As a voluntary virgin, I can't speak from my own experiences, but I've absorbed much wisdom from people I know. Call me idealistic/traditional/secksay, but I still believe that sex within the confines of marriage is the only way it should be. But I have no qualms discussing the topic.

~Wonder

 

[Seusomon]

I guess the big change (and it's been gradual - I'll be 45 in a couple weeks) is that my sexuality has become more integrated with my whole life, less a compartment with its own separate drives and issues.

My parents were excellent about giving me all the necessary clinical information (science books and things), but gave me no model of healthy sexuality in the context of a loving relationship. (My father was abusive.) As a teenage boy, I had an incredible sexual desire but no clue how to get from point A (being an introverted nerd) to point B (having a sexual relationship).

For awhile, it felt like stumbling on random opportunities and running with them.

As I've lived life, and reflected on it, I've come to appreciate all the other things that sex overlaps with - sensuality, intimacy, bonding, spirituality, sense of identity, comfort, and love of course. My present relationship is the best I've ever known, and I think that is partly because of the way our sex life blends so seamlessly into our emotional and spiritual connections. We're always making love, even if it looks like we're talking on the phone or sharing a meal.

And I should say that in response to the original question, I've never been one who had specific attitudes about sex, in terms of beliefs, rules, opinions, and all that. I certainly never bought into any heavy moral/religious stuff about it. To me, it is (and always has been) just an incredibly pleasurable activity and a fundamental of human life. It needs to be approached with some care and respect, because of the way it overlaps with people's emotional relationships and hopes and fears - but all that is something you can't address very productively with rules or grand opinions about this or that; each person and each relationship is different, and you have to learn as you go.

 

[Bill P]

For me, to physically share my sexual desires with another person is the ultimate exposure of my vulnerabilities. As a teenager and into my early 20's that scared me to death. Subsequently I remained a virgin until I was almost 22. I would love to say that was out of some moral stance, but honestly I was too afraid of sex and the emotional conseuences. Then, I met a woman that I felt complete trust and comfort with. Of course, when you meet someone like that, you marry them. We have been together for 21 years now. I am 43 and the only person I have had sex with is my wife. I have to be honest and say that sometimes I wonder what it would have been like, or even would be like to have a different sex partner. When It comes right down to it though. I know my wife is the still the only person I would trust enough to share that part of myself with.

 

[Chrysalis]

Well, as a teenager I believed that sex before marriage was okay, but that sex was something sacred and you should only do it with the right person. I wanted to "save" myself for the right person, and held onto my virginity until I was 20.

Then my viewpoint changed. I didn't lose my virginity in the way that I planned to, nor in a way that many people would understand, but it felt right to me and I didn't regret it afterwards. I then saw sex as something that had been overrated. Sure, I wouldn't do it with just anyone but I had no intention of waiting another 20 years for sex again. I've had several partners over the past two years, some of them people I didn't know very well intially. I doubt that I would do some of those things again, but I regret nothing. I feel that I have learned a lot from those experiences (by the way, I am 22 now).

My viewpoint today is that if you can live with your own actions, it is okay to do whatever you want sexually. The only exception is sleeping with someone's wife/husband/SO (unless all three of you consent to it). As for me personally, I experienced meaningful sex with my last relationship and ever since, I've been trying to wait for the right person. I just can't bring myself to do it any other way, although there are moments of weakness I admit. So basically I have come full circle in my feelings, I just have a better understanding of why. And now my feelings toward sex are more to do with personal preference than with rightiousness or morality.

 

[Jessica Alana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Wonder

Call me idealistic/traditional/secksay,

~Wonder

~Wonder, just call me.

 

[Thalia]

Is there anyone here who has felt or known someone who has ambivalent, or negative, or guilty feelings about sex with a person you respect, but feel ok having sex with someone who is "bad" (i.e. madonna whore complex)? The female version of this might be women who can only be sexually attractive to "bad boys" so to speak, and find men who are kind and respectful unappealling sexually.

There are some people who have difficulting thinking of sex as something you do with someone as opposed to to someone. That sex is inherently an act of a victim and a victimizer. Along with this is a notion (which could be thought of as misogynist) that women don't really enjoy sex, but that they only do it to get something, to hold over men, or because they have low-self esteem. Likewise, there are women who also have their own version of this anti-genuine-female-sexuality and who have similar views- either making sex into something that is a gift to the male, something to be kept from them as long as possible, or to manipulate them with.

It just seems to me there are a lot of bizarre and unhealthy gender role concepts that go a long with sex. I've had experience with these people. I told someone I considered myself as a sex-positive feminist and that I did not have a problem if a woman wants to whore it up or whatever, and he interpreted that to mean that I felt women should use sex positively- as a weapon against men. I only meant that I feel women should feel free to have positive feelings towards sex and feel free to express themselves as the feel fit.

I also see this when discussing issues of teen sex. It's always assumed that the guys are evil and disrespectful and the girls are just stupid fluff balls with low-self esteem and zero interest in sex. Do young girls get pressured into sex- hell yeah, all the time. But there are plenty of female teens who enjoy it. I did it as a teen. I loved it, had no regrets, and I never felt like a whore. I guess female sexuality (especially of young females) makes people very squemish, and it really bugs me.

 

[Jessica Alana]

I keep on with the force, don't-- don't stop 'til I get enough.

It's not what they call you, it's what you answer to.

 

[~Wonder]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessica Alana

~Wonder, just call me.

It's 976-JESS, right?

~Wonder

 

[synergy]

Interesting thread. I like sex, and I think that my attitude towards sex has remained relatively stable thus far. I know I learned about sex from books, school, magazines, friends and my parents at an early age, and I started experimenting sexually (with girlfriends) at a very young age... Maybe 12 or so. I lost my virginity at 16 to a guy I wasn't in love with, although we were dating at the time. I wanted it that way. I thought it would be much easier with someone I liked and felt comfortable with, but wouldn't be devastated if we broke up. I'm still glad I made that choice.

I've always held the opinion that sex has many different facets. It can be fun, it can be perfunctory and/or it can be a very spiritual, amazing thing.

It depends on your mood and the person you are with.

I think of sex as sacred, but I have had sex merely for fun/pleasure with other consenting individuals ( I don't say adults to include the times when we were teenagers).

 

[Jessica Alana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Wonder

It's 976-JESS, right?

~Wonder

I'm saving myself for you!

C'mon baby, you know it ain't like that.

...ok.. yes it is. 6 pm - 12 am Mon-Fri.

 

[elibrown]

*WARNING: tmi alert*

From about ages 13 to 16, I had decided to remain abstinent until marriage for religious reasons. Some time in high school, I removed religion from my life altogether but had come so far with not having sex that it just seemed silly to give it away at that point. There were way too many reasons NOT to have sex than there were to do it, so I didn't worry about it.

However, after my religious phase, I was doing "other stuff", you know, besides penetration. One way my perception of sex has changed a lot is that now, I do consider what I was doing to be sex, when I didn't before. I called myself a virgin. I sort of got off on telling everyone I was a virgin and being proud of it.

But after I got married and had "real" sex, I realized that it was incredibly stupid for me to have been all high and mighty about my "virginity" all that time. I grew up a lot. Like my mother in law made a joke right after we got married about finally knowing what Tommy looked like naked, and I was like, "Are you kidding me? We've been getting each other off for years." Also my mom tried to give me all this advice about oral sex and other stuff, and I didn't understand why she thought I had never done anything before. It was little hints like this, stupid questions and redundant advice, that made me realize I hadn't been a virgin for years. In reality, all that time I was claiming to be a virgin, my sex life was more active, adventurous, and healthier than most of the girls I knew. Just because I never had anything inside my vagina didn't mean I was a virgin.

So yeah. I have almost always had a very good sex life and still do. Just the fact that I even consider it a sex life is what's changed.

 

[IamJen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elibrown

But after I got married and had "real" sex, I realized that it was incredibly stupid for me to have been all high and mighty about my "virginity" all that time. I grew up a lot. Like my mother in law made a joke right after we got married about finally knowing what Tommy looked like naked, and I was like, "Are you kidding me? We've been getting each other off for years."

Okay, this is the scariest part of what you typed to me.

 

[~Wonder]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessica Alana

I'm saving myself for you!

C'mon baby, you know it ain't like that.

...ok.. yes it is. 6 pm - 12 am Mon-Fri.

Damn, you're closed. You need to get better hours. I wonder if 976-CREEZY is open? Nah, it's not worth the long distance charges. I guess I'll save myself for you too.

~Wonder