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Do all vegan debates lead to the question of collateral damage?


Honey is made by bees for bees, like cow's milk is made for cows by cows. I don't like the idea of stealing it from them.

Also I don't like the idea of insects being killed when I dig up my potatoes, but it's in a different league. To me it is.

gotta go, my pasta is ready
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by spud

Also I don't like the idea of insects being killed when I dig up my potatoes, but it's in a different league. To me it is.
Ok, but let's say that somehow we can KNOW exactly how many creatures are harmed. Now if more creatures are killed when you dig up potatoes than when you "steal" honey, would you still take potatoes over honey? (of course this isn't about honey vs. potatoes, but I'm sure you understand the question)

Also, don't you think that taking away something they made is better than killing them? (and yes, maybe the bees die, but that also isn't the point of this question)
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Tommy Gun

Ok, but let's say that somehow we can KNOW exactly how many creatures are harmed. Now if more creatures are killed when you dig up potatoes than when you "steal" honey, would you still take potatoes over honey? (of course this isn't about honey vs. potatoes, but I'm sure you understand the question)

I would take honey over potatoes. Like Matt Ball of vegan outreach said, if by some strange twist, eating a hamburger would greatly progress the movement to reduce animal suffering, he would do it. I would, too.
 

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i disagree that if, by some strange twist, eating hamburger or using honey would help reduce animals suffering, it should be done. Why do i think this? because it flows from the concept that animals are here for our use, once you show support for this concept you condemn animals to be servents of humans thus furthering their suffering more so than you would otherwise.

one of the main concepts of being vegan is that animals are not here for the use of humans, manipulating bees for honey and taking that honey goes against that concept and you are supporting the notion that it is ok to manipulate and use animals for our benefit.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Tommy Gun

Ok, but let's say that somehow we can KNOW exactly how many creatures are harmed. Now if more creatures are killed when you dig up potatoes than when you "steal" honey, would you still take potatoes over honey? (of course this isn't about honey vs. potatoes, but I'm sure you understand the question)

Also, don't you think that taking away something they made is better than killing them? (and yes, maybe the bees die, but that also isn't the point of this question)
If I was starving on a desert island, blah blah, I expect I'd eat honey in your example rather than potatoes. But I'm not. I'm in the 21st century with free will and I know I don't need honey. Not only do I not believe that it has magical health giving properties as some advertisers like to infer, but I think it encourages the concept that bees, animals, people, are there to be exploited by anyone in a position of superior strength or cunning. And I disagree with that totally.

Do I think that being robbed is better than being murdered? Yes I do. I can't speak for a bee, they probably have different ideals in life than me. Some seem prepared to die to protect their honey. Why should I pay someone to take away the bee's honey and give it to me? Just because I can doesn't mean that it's a nice thing to do. I wouldn't like it done to me, so I know I don't want to do it to them.
 

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Bees are stolen from and murdered, some bees are killed during the honey gathering process. And some beekeepers kill there entire hive at the end of the season so that they won't have to take care of them during the winter when they are not producing. And the ones who give them the sugar water syrup are not providing them the nutrients that they get from the honey that they work so hard to store for the winter months.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Tommy Gun

Ok, but let's say that somehow we can KNOW exactly how many creatures are harmed. Now if more creatures are killed when you dig up potatoes than when you "steal" honey, would you still take potatoes over honey? (of course this isn't about honey vs. potatoes, but I'm sure you understand the question)

Also, don't you think that taking away something they made is better than killing them? (and yes, maybe the bees die, but that also isn't the point of this question)
I want to add that my answer was purely in a hypothetical situation in which my only choice of food is potatoes vs. honey. And universe help me if that were ever the case, especially since I loathe honey to begin with. Yuck!
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by spud

Why should I pay someone to take away the bee's honey and give it to me? Just because I can doesn't mean that it's a nice thing to do. I wouldn't like it done to me, so I know I don't want to do it to them.
...but is it nice to kill things by paying someone to get you potatoes? (this is very odd constantly using potatoes and honey...)

Anyway, of course if you like syrup or something better, by all means go for it! Although you can never be sure that you're not hurting something. This discussion has turned out much better than I expected.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Thalia

I don't think anyone here would say that, and if anyone here thinks that, they are sorely mistaken.
Ok, let me rephrase. You can't always be sure you're not hurting anything. Just existing you're probably killing microscopic beings that live on your body. Anyway, I'm sure you know what I meant in the context of my post. Unless you actually GO there and WATCH them make [product] you don't *know* what's really happening.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Tommy Gun

...but is it nice to kill things by paying someone to get you potatoes? (this is very odd constantly using potatoes and honey...)

Anyway, of course if you like syrup or something better, by all means go for it! Although you can never be sure that you're not hurting something. This discussion has turned out much better than I expected.
I'd rather insects and little animals weren't killed in my vegetable harvest, but I'm not farming them, they are regretable collateral damage. In the veggies I grow and pick myself, I avoid it as much as I can.

And what I like is influenced by more than taste and convenience.

Old proverb: Thieves never prosper


I do my best not to hurt things, but like today, I often fail. I rescued a spider from the toilet pan and put it outside the back door. A hen ran up and ate it. I swear no one would ever eat another egg if they saw what hens eat. They could go on a japanese sicko programme and win first prize for eating.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Tommy Gun

Ok, let me rephrase. You can't always be sure you're not hurting anything. Just existing you're probably killing microscopic beings that live on your body. Anyway, I'm sure you know what I meant in the context of my post. Unless you actually GO there and WATCH them make [product] you don't *know* what's really happening.
You are absolutely right. Nothing can live without causing some harm to something else. Vegans try to keep the amount of suffering their lives cause to a minimum, and I hope that they don't have any illusions that mass harvesting is harmless to sentient beings.

Of course it is worth mentioning that it takes the harvesting of a lot of plants to feed animals that are used for livestock, and only a fraction of that plant material is translated into animal material.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Thalia

Of course it is worth mentioning that it takes the harvesting of a lot of plants to feed animals that are used for livestock, and only a fraction of that plant material is translated into animal material.
Oh absolutely. It drives me crazy when people (like maddox, if you know who I'm talking about) put up articles or rants about how veg*ns kill creatures by eating plants, but completely ignore the fact that eating animals is killing THOSE animals, PLUS wasting plants, PLUS killing the same creatures they're accusing us of killing!
 
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