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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
debate forum on Honey and vegans who dont eat it, and those people that do, yet dont use other animal products. not to offend anyone by saying that!...<br><br><br><br>
Well then, what are your views on honey, hypocrits, and the like??
 

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Thanks.<br><br><br><br><a href="http://www.vegansociety.com/html/faq/faq.htm#faq11" target="_blank">http://www.vegansociety.com/html/faq/faq.htm#faq11</a><br><br>
Q.11: How did the word vegan come about?<br><br>
A: The word vegan is made up from the beginning and end of the word vegetarian and was coined in the UK in 1944 when the Vegan Society was founded. The derivation of the word symbolises that veganism is at the root of vegetarianism and the logical conclusion of the vegetarian journey in pursuit of good health without the suffering or death of any animal.<br><br><br><br><a href="http://www.vegansociety.com/html/faq/faq.htm#faq1" target="_blank">http://www.vegansociety.com/html/faq/faq.htm#faq1</a><br><br>
Q.1: What is a vegan?<br><br>
A: Vegans, like other vegetarians, do not eat the bodies of animals. In addition, vegans do not consume milk, eggs or honey. More broadly, veganism is a way of life which seeks to avoid exploitation of or cruelty to animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. Most vegans do not wear leather, wool or silk.<br><br>
They invented the word, thats the defenition.<br><br>
Period.<br><br><br><br>
Some will say its all about reduction and that is partly true.<br><br>
In the world we live in, it becomes more and more easily to avoid animal product.<br><br><br><br>
For me that means the minimum requirements for being Vegan are getting higher.<br><br><br><br>
A Vegan does not eat honey, no doubt about it.
 

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I don't eat honey, it belongs to the bees.<br><br><br><br>
I have been known to eat syrup on toast occasionally though, and I expect it tastes much the same as honey.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><i>Originally posted by kpickell</i><br><br><b>I don't eat honey. But I don't see why someone who eats honey can't label themself vegan.</b></div>
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One problem is those (true) vegans who don't eat honey can be offered/served products with honey in them, that they would not want to consume. Vegans have a hard enough time as it is without semi-vegans etc. complicating things.
 

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Do you have a problem with a vegan that eats cheese sometimes ?<br><br>
Is a vegetarian that says he likes a barbequed steak once in a while a vegetarian?<br><br><br><br>
What do you think the minium requirments for "vegan" are ?
 

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I'm not concerned with "earning" an official label. I am more concerned with following my own beliefs. So what another veg*n thinks of me is not of concern to me.<br><br><br><br>
As far as honey- I am not sure how I feel about it ethically (and I do know about all of the stuff they do), but I lean towards being against it bc it is a form of animal husbandry, and I am not 100% sure it doesn't cause pain or suffering to the bees.<br><br><br><br>
But I've never liked honey anyway. So I wouldn't use it no matter what I thought, but if there is a little honey in a granola bar or something, I don't care. If it's not enough to see smell or taste, it's not worth worrying about in my mind. Of course, next time I may buy the kind without honey.
 

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There is a really good book out there that decribes what being vegan is. It's called "Being Vegan - Living with Conscience, Conviction, and Compassion" by Joanne Stepaniak. It really cleared the matter up for me. I wanted to eat honey, but after reading this book, I decided to give it up. If I ate honey, I wouldn't call myself vegan, I would be a pure vegetarian instead.<br><br><br><br>
Vegan is much, much more than your diet. It's a whole philosophy, and because of these beliefs, affects all our choices, the animals, and our world. This is one of the most important reasons I became vegan, to do my part to make a difference.<br><br><br><br>
I suggest reading that book.<br><br><br><br>
Just wanted to add, that the book also emphasized that it is virtually impossible to live an animal-cruelty-free lifestyle, even movies you go to have film made out of animal. At first I thought it would be impossible to be vegan, but then she reassured that just do your best, be realistic, don't stress out over the small stuff you have no control over, the goal is to lead a gentle, compassionate life towards all living things, including yourself.<br><br><br><br>
But calling yourself vegan when eating honey is tainting the word, much like in the past "vegetarian" got all confusing as people started including eggs, dairy, fish, chicken, etc...
 

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A vegan that eats cheese sometimes? No problem if they eat soy cheese. Otherwise they are a lacto-ovo vegetarian.<br><br>
A vegetarian who eats steak once in a while is an omnivore.<br><br><br><br>
When vegans run around accepting cheese and others see this, then it can make it difficult for those like myself who actually stick to our beliefs.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><i>Originally posted by Thalia</i><br><br><b>I am not 100% sure it doesn't cause pain or suffering to the bees.<br><br></b></div>
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If seen more links with info on honey on VB, but this is a reasonable start.<br><br><a href="http://www.vegansociety.com/html/info/info24.html" target="_blank">http://www.vegansociety.com/html/info/info24.html</a>
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><i>Originally posted by 1vegan</i><br><br><b>If seen more links with info on honey on VB, but this is a reasonable start.<br><br><a href="http://www.vegansociety.com/html/info/info24.html" target="_blank">http://www.vegansociety.com/html/info/info24.html</a></b></div>
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What I mean by that is that I am not 100% convinced that bees are or aren't able to <i>experience</i> pain or suffering. I am more than open to learning about this from a neurological standpoint.
 

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Bees are often accidentally killed in order to obtain their honey. Some beekeepers burn their hives at the end of the season. I would think that causes the bees pain and suffering. Young bees no longer have their natural food source to eat. It's not right that we manipulate and end their lives to consume their livelihood.
 

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I think that stating that (all) vegans cannot/do not consume honey oversimplifies the matter.<br><br><br><br>
Consider:<br><br><br><br><a href="http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan" target="_blank">http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan</a><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><span style="font-size:small;">A Vegan is a person that strives to remove all animal products from their lives. A vegan product is one that is free of all animal ingredients. ...<br><br><br><br>
Animal products include all forms of meat, poultry, fish, eggs, dairy products, fur, leather, wool, silk, and byproducts such as gelatin, rennet, whey, and the like. The Vegan Society and <b>most</b> [Emphasis added] vegans include insect products such as honey in <b><span style="text-decoration:underline;">their</span> definition</b>[Emphasis added] as well. There is some debate on the finer points of what constitutes an animal product; some vegans avoid cane sugar that has been filtered with bone char and some won't drink beers and wines clarified with egg whites or isinglass (even though they are not present in the final product). Further, some vegans won't eat food cooked in pans if they have ever been used to cook meat, while other vegans are content to simply remove meat, fish, eggs, and milk from their diets.<br><br><br><br>
...<br><br><br><br>
Today, however, there are some distinctions between different vegans based primarily on their motivation for following a vegan lifestyle.<br><br><br><br>
"Dietary vegans" avoid animal products in their food <b>although some are less than strict about "minor" ingredients such as honey.</b>[Emphasis added]</span><br></div>
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Overall, I think of my goal as reducing suffering, so whatever rules I follow, I doubt that quibbling about what is or isn't vegan does any good to reducing suffering. I am glad at any reduction in support of suffering a person engages in, whatever they call themself.<br><br><br><br>
From vegan outreach, who believed in a results based approach<br><br><a href="http://www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack/qa.html#insects" target="_blank">http://www.veganoutreach.org/starter...a.html#insects</a><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">What about honey / insects killed by pesticides or during harvest?<br><br>
What is a vegan? The general definition of a vegan is "someone who does not use animal products." And one reason to avoid these products is to prevent pain and suffering. But it is not clear which organisms are considered animals, nor which organisms can experience pain and suffering.<br><br><br><br>
The behavior of animals is probably the criterion most people use to base their opinions on whether animals feel pain. Most people agree that cats, dogs, and other mammals feel pain. In fact, when some people say 'animal,' they mean 'mammal'. Even the Merriam-Webster Dictionary lists mammal' as a synonym for 'animal.'<br><br><br><br>
It is not as easy for everyone to agree if birds, reptiles, fish, and invertebrates feel pain. On the other hand, many people seriously claim that plants feel pain. Therefore, defining 'animal' by what people generally believe is not going to be productive.<br><br><br><br>
An alternative way to define 'animal' is to use a scientific definition. But even a scientific definition of 'animal' has problems:<br><br><br><br>
Constructing a good definition of animals is not as easy as it might first appear. There are exceptions to nearly every criterion for distinguishing an animal from other life forms.<br><br><br><br>
Biology, 3rd Ed, Campbell, 1993<br><br><br><br>
If vegans are going to follow a technical or scientific definition of the word 'animal,' then sponges (Porifera) are included. Though considered animals, sponges lack true tissues and have no nervous system. They cannot feel pain or suffer any more than plants. So what would be the point of including sponges in a vegan definition of 'animal'?<br><br><br><br>
Instead of trying to define 'animal,' we should simply try to avoid products that cause suffering and harm to nonhuman organisms by figuring out as best we can which feel pain.<br><br><br><br>
It is possible to understand what goes on in certain portions of the human brain, and then compare the human brain to the brains of animals that are closely related to the animals from which humans have evolved. In so doing, all vertebrates (i.e., fish, amphibians, reptiles, mammals, and birds) appear to have what is necessary to feel certain types of pain. Vertebrates are also the animals involved in most of the practices to which vegans object.<br><br><br><br>
Invertebrates (such as insects, mollusks, crustaceans, and silkworms) are different because their evolutionary history diverged from ours long before the evolution of fish, the oldest vertebrates. In fact, we are more closely related to starfish (invertebrates with no brain) than to cephalopods (squid and octopi), who have the largest brains of all the invertebrates. Since their nervous systems developed along a different path, it is very hard to know what they do and do not feel.<br><br><br><br>
Bivalves (a class of mollusk; including oysters, clams, mussels, and scallops) are much more complex than sponges. They don't have a brain, but rather very basic nerve ganglia (bunches of nerves). It is doubtful that their nervous systems are developed enough to be conscious of pain. Because they have nervous tissue, there is an argument to be made for avoiding products that may have harmed bivalves.<br><br><br><br>
Insects (including bees) do have brains. But their brains are not highly developed, and they are likely not large enough to facilitate the consciousness of pain.<br><br><br><br>
So is honey vegan? Our best answer is "We don't know." If one is concerned about doing harm to insects, it's not clear that the production of honey involves any more pain for insects than the production of most vegetables or alternative sweeteners, since the harvesting and transportation of all crops involves some insect deaths.<br><br><br><br>
How should vegans treat this issue publicly? We tend to think that making an issue about honey allows people to marginalize vegans as being in favor of insect rights.' Most people won't yet face the pain and suffering involved in meat. Equating meat with honey probably makes the vegan case nonsensical to the average person.<br><br><br><br>
Saying that honey is a significant ethical issue brings in a range of other issues that people can easily dismiss veganism, reducto ad absurdum. Can't eat honey? Can't kill cockroaches? Can't swat mosquitoes? Squashing flies with your car is the same as eating veal?<br><br><br><br>
At this point in history, the obvious and undeniable issues should receive our focus. We should probably cut people some slack when it comes to insects, even if we ourselves see value in the avoidance of harming them.<br><br><br><br>
And this brings us back to the original question of what is a 'vegan'? Perhaps instead of defining a vegan as "someone who does not use animal products," we should define a vegan as "someone who reasonably avoids products that cause suffering to nonhumans."<br><br><br><br>
This might upset some people who feel that without a dogmatic approach (i.e., a governing body making rules for everyone else), veganism will become meaningless as people will be rationalizing all sorts of behavior. But as the situation stands now, veganism's dogmatic overtones not only<br><br><br><br>
drive people away, but make them not even consider giving up many animal products. If we allowed people to call themselves 'vegan' and let them decide what is reasonable, we could then try to convince them using reason, rather than dogma. How can we scare people away by telling them to do what they think is most reasonable? We think the animals would be much better off with this approach both in the short and long run.</div>
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
hi again....I basically agree with Thalia. I personally do not know if they feel pain, though many descriptions of what has been done to the insects are rather disturbing. Yet still...I want relatively cheap whole grain bread- have you seen any without honey?<br><br><br><br>
Do you propose a new word for honey eating vegans? With the vegans I have met, one asked me if I ate honey- understanding it is a varying thing, and my science teacher does'nt even KNOW what a vegan is. *frown* And, one of my best friends knows a vegan, who also talks about how some eat honey, n some dont.
 

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I'm not vegan but I still try to avoid honey. It's easy enough so why not? I don't know how/why some vegans avoid meat, eggs, and dairy (and in some cases even refined sugar) but can't seem to cut out the honey.<br><br><br><br>
Personally I've never met (or even heard of) a vegan that eats honey. And yet this topic is brought up time and time again. Do we have any here?
 

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I'm a fairly recent vegan. This honey issue almost made me not want to call myself a vegan. I seriously recommend reading that book I listed above, she does a really good job clearing questions up. Before reading that book, I was going to be a honey-eating vegan. Now I know that's not fair to use the word.<br><br><br><br>
Now, I will try my best to avoid honey. I will not buy honey, will not cook with honey, and have found suitable substitutes (syrup, liquid agave, stevia). I will check ingredients listing for it. If anyone brings it up, I will state my position on honey. I bought a breadmaker and am making my own fresh whole grain bread now. I will call myself vegan in full conscience, as I believe in all its ethics and philosophies and try my hardest to live it.<br><br><br><br>
Although I will not beat myself up if I accidentally eat something that contained honey (that I had no way of knowing). This is hard for me, as I'm still learning what foods and ingredients to avoid.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><i>Originally posted by Kurmudgeon</i><br><br><b>One problem is those (true) vegans who don't eat honey can be offered/served products with honey in them, that they would not want to consume. Vegans have a hard enough time as it is without semi-vegans etc. complicating things.</b></div>
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I think as far as food labeling itself as 100% vegan, it definitely should not have honey, since so many people are concerned about this.<br><br><br><br>
Definitely, people each do what they feel right doing, and any reduction in suffering as a result of those choices is welcome. But as far as vegans comparing themselves to others, "Are you a <i>true</i> vegan?" getting upset about other vegans' food choices detracts from the issue of reducing suffering. This also happens when some people get in a tizzy bc someone uses margarie once in a while with whey in it, or bread with a chemical biproduct in it and calls themself vegan. I don't see this approach winning any converts. That's why when asked what I "am", I describe my diet, not myself. I don't want to have a badge or belong to an elite club. Like Joe said in another thread, "Label our food, not each other."
 

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The original question was regarding "vegans", thus my posts expressed my beliefs that vegans should avoid honey.<br><br><br><br>
I think very highly of all of you, regardless if you are vegan, vegetarian, or a person who eats veggies. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br><br><br>
My husband calls himself vegetarian and will eat honey. I'm not upset about his choices, and am just glad he is doing his part to reduce the suffering of those without a voice.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><i>Originally posted by dotnetdiva</i><br><br><b>There is a really good book out there that decribes what being vegan is. It's called "Being Vegan - Living with Conscience, Conviction, and Compassion" by Joanne Stepaniak. It really cleared the matter up for me. I wanted to eat honey, but after reading this book, I decided to give it up. If I ate honey, I wouldn't call myself vegan, I would be a pure vegetarian instead.<br><br>
...<br><br>
I suggest reading that book.<br><br></b></div>
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I happen to like Joanne Stepaniak. I think she is a very dedicated person. And I hesitate to criticize her, since it seems there are so many other people who are eager to attack and condemn her.<br><br><br><br>
But I do have one issue with Joanne, and I think it is relevant to bring it up here. I suppose you could call the issue her "writing style."<br><br><br><br>
Joanne tends to write in a totally dogmatic style. If there is a problem or issue within the veg*n community, and if members of the veg*n community have proposed answers A, B, C, and D to the problem, and if Joanne believes that answer D is correct, she tends to write:<br><br><br><br><b>The answer to the problem is D.</b><br><br><br><br>
She rarely or almost never writes:<br><br><br><br><b>Although some members of the veg*n community advocate A, B, and C, I believe that the best answer to the problem is D.</b><br><br><br><br>
Joanne tends to leave out the "ifs, ands, or buts." You almost never see in her writings an "although ..." or a "but see ..." or any other device or mode of writing style that other authors commonly use to acknowledge dissenting points of view. And you won't find references to these dissenting authors or points of view in her footnotes, bibliographies, etc. I sometimes wonder whether she is unacquainted with these other authors, or whether she simply chooses to ignore them in her writings.<br><br><br><br>
Joanne is also often less than clear--when she discusses language and linguistic usage--whether she is explaining how language is actually used, or whether she is advocating about how she feels that language <b>should</b> be used, and if the latter, whether anyone else agrees with her and uses language in the way she proposes. Put another way, it is easy for someone to come away after reading Joanne's writings and speak "Stepaniak-ese" rather than English.
 
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