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Arrrg! Me mateys.
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It had all makings of a perfect outing for a vegan, homeschooling family like ours. The trip to the local tofu factory promised to be fun and educational, with plenty of photo-ops and information that would make for great blogging when it was over. But it wasnt fun. And while it was an education and gave us plenty to write about, what we learned and what we must now report are not what we had in mind when we recently plunked down $40 for an hour long tour of Hodo Soy Beanery in West Oakland.

The first things to greet us when we walked through the doors of Hodo Soy Beanery were some of the cruelest devices in use by humans in their effort to kill the non-humans who share our planet: sticky glue traps. These contraptions are designed to ensnare their terrified victims and then kill them slowly.
http://www.allamericanvegan.com/tofu-shouldnt-hurt/
 

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Your post about the glue traps reminded me of a trip to our local hardware store a few weeks ago. You will love this, guaranteed!

I was paying for some things and a second lady behind the counter was bundling up some things and putting them into a larger box and I heard her say something like, "no more implements of sadistic torture in this store", which admittedly is a pretty weird thing for a store manager to be saying considering that we weren't in a sex shop! So I looked at her and said, "what was that?". Then she told me that they'd been having a mouse problem in the store so they'd called a pest control company who'd set a bunch of these glue traps out. Well, when they got to work in the morning, one of the first things they notice is a poor little mouse trapped on one of these horrible things. She said they'd spent an hour trying to free the little guy and finally been able to let him go out in the parking lot (I shudder to think in what kind of condition but that's not the point of the story). And at that point, she went back inside and pulled all the glue traps that they had in the store, including the ones on the shelves which she was packing up to return to the mfg and she had phoned the mouse killers and told them no more of those in her store. I thought that was pretty great.

Mind you, they didn't get rid of all traps, so maybe it was more a case of not wanting to deal with live and visible suffering but it's perfectly comfortable to face a dead mouse. Actually as I'm reading this back, I can see where one might think it's a good thing, but at the same time, it would be nice to see so much more (like all traps gone). I guess sometimes you gotta just take the little that you can get. hmmmm, my smile's gone
 

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The factory had a choice-use approved traps or be shut down by the Health Department.

I guess none of you on the tour have ever run a business-because businesses are faced with choice like that all the time-it's called the Real World.

I used to use simple snap traps since I don't agree with Live Release-the bastards just come back inside.

The Best Bait of all was marijuana seeds-but that was in the days when marijuana actually had seeds-back in another century.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Barilko View Post

The factory had a choice-use approved traps or be shut down by the Health Department.

I guess none of you on the tour have ever run a business-because businesses are faced with choice like that all the time-it's called the Real World.

I used to use simple snap traps since I don't agree with Live Release-the bastards just come back inside.

The Best Bait of all was marijuana seeds-but that was in the days when marijuana actually had seeds-back in another century.
Some people are opposed to traps, regardless of "Real World" factors.
 

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Originally Posted by KrisMTL View Post

Some people are opposed to traps, regardless of "Real World" factors.
Opposition is one thing Kris ..

The ability to do anything about it is quite another.

Bill Barkilo, is unfortunately, right.

In the real world the vast majority people intentionaly buy products that are clearly produced by industrial scale cruelty alone.

They are reluctant to pay premiums for ethical and cruelty free product but keen to pay premiums for extra cruelty intense products like lobster, veal and pate foi de grois.

A business being shut down for pussying about with something as 'peripheral' as pest control would not cause one single ripple in the pond.
 

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Originally Posted by KrisMTL View Post

Some people are opposed to traps, regardless of "Real World" factors.
somewhat pointless opposition if you're disregarding the real world isn't it?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Barilko View Post

The factory had a choice-use approved traps or be shut down by the Health Department.

I guess none of you on the tour have ever run a business-because businesses are faced with choice like that all the time-it's called the Real World.
Unfortunately. There are probably more "humane" traps available that kill quickly that the company could use, glue traps are some of the worst. (I don't think killing could ever be humane, but there's no point in denying that there are prolonged deaths and quick deaths and generally I'm gonna advocate the latter if the option of 'no death' isn't available) No doubt the less torturous ones are more expensive. It's highly unlikely that a large company of any kind would use catch and release methods.

Humans are messy, careless creatures that encourage animals that we consider pests and then kill the pests to protect humans' messy, careless interests.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Barilko View Post

The factory had a choice-use approved traps or be shut down by the Health Department.

I guess none of you on the tour have ever run a business-because businesses are faced with choice like that all the time-it's called the Real World.

I used to use simple snap traps since I don't agree with Live Release-the bastards just come back inside.

The Best Bait of all was marijuana seeds-but that was in the days when marijuana actually had seeds-back in another century.
In the last house we lived in we had a mouse infestation in the early spring. It was a 100 year old house built on a stone foundation and every winter, a mouse or two would find their way in through the multitude of little cracks. So I caught everyone of the little mousies (11 in all) in a bucket trap and took them way up to the back of the woods behind our place in a spot where the snow had already melted. I even left food at the drop site so that they'd have something to start their new life on.

You know, if you take them far away, it's highly unlikely that those mice will return. I'm sure that I've never heard of 'homing mice'. If you're getting more, I'd bet that it's more likely that more just come in because you know what they say, "nature abhors a vacuum' and you didn't correct any of the other conditions that make it a nice place to live. It's far kinder to trap and release, you just go a little further than the bottom step to let them go. After all, those little cuties can't help being born mice. Please give them a break.

Just as an aside, you aren't a vegan are you? Just curious but if you'd rather not say, that's fine.
 

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I'm sure if the tofu company provided a copy of a billing relating to 'rodent-proofing' the building accompanied by NO evidence of mouse infestation, the Health Department would be more than pleased. The guy who owns the company is just not interested in thinking outside the box and he thinks that vegans are so shallow and stupid that we would accept his excuses.
 

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Originally Posted by Dieselsmom View Post

In the last house we lived in we had a mouse infestation in the early spring. It was a 100 year old house built on a stone foundation and every winter, a mouse or two would find their way in through the multitude of little cracks.
Mine was over 75 yo @ the time and located in the middle of the city-nowhere for mice to go but down the toilet after I caught them.

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Originally Posted by Dieselsmom View Post

Just as an aside, you aren't a vegan are you?
No I'm not
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieselsmom View Post

I'm sure if the tofu company provided a copy of a billing relating to 'rodent-proofing' the building accompanied by NO evidence of mouse infestation, the Health Department would be more than pleased. The guy who owns the company is just not interested in thinking outside the box and he thinks that vegans are so shallow and stupid that we would accept his excuses.
Again your lack of Real World experience trips you up-that's not how it works not even close.

Health Departments don't accept dubious certificates from third parties they inspect the premises personally until they are satisfied there is no evidence of infestation.

One tiny mouse turd will bring the whole deck of cards crashing down-companies must be diligent and use Health Dept accepted pest control methods.

The lives of few mice don't count for sh!t beside someone's livelihood-did you not know that?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieselsmom View Post

... you know what they say, "nature abhors a vacuum' and you didn't correct any of the other conditions that make it a nice place to live. It's far kinder to trap and release, you just go a little further than the bottom step to let them go.
And in there lies one major wisdom and one major contradiction.

The contradiction; Nature does indeed abhor a vacuum. Unfortunately natures abhorence of a vacuum means there are few, if any, vaccuums to release natures little vacuum fillers into.

Natures way of preventing already filled vaccuums from becoming pressure pots (starvation basicaly) is crueler than a fast death at human hands though.

The wisdom, a I see it, is that prevention (in this case, if you need a vacuum then don't allow mother (blurdy women! :p: ) nature access to it in the first place) is better than cure.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Barilko View Post

Mine was over 75 yo @ the time and located in the middle of the city-nowhere for mice to go but down the toilet after I caught them.
A city without parks!

Where was this hell on Earth that you lived in Bill?

Actualy you were technicaly correct. The parks, most likely, already have their full naturaly sustainable quotas of rodents.

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No I'm not
One of veganisms uses, Bill, is that going a little further involves thinking a little further.

Few but a vegan would have spotted your little 'City without parks' porky-pie.

As I say you were technicaly correct but only by accident and not by intent.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Barilko View Post

The factory had a choice-use approved traps or be shut down by the Health Department.

I guess none of you on the tour have ever run a business-because businesses are faced with choice like that all the time-it's called the Real World.
Except that the factory doesn't have to use glue traps - they can opt for snap traps, or any other quick killing trap method. Glue traps are banned in many other countries and they don't seem to have a problem using viable alternatives - the only reason glue traps are used is simple: money. They're probably the most cost effective trap on the market. It doesn't matter how cruel or unsanitary the trap is, anyway to cut costs it seems. The health department will bring their own pest control guys in, the individual tech will deploy said traps but some don't even use glue traps because of ethical reasons, as well as the fact that they're not as effective as some people think. The CDC don't recommend using them and I can see why - glue traps keep the animal alive, so it could pull off and escape. Or gnaw parts of its body off leaving blood everywhere and since it was on the trap on a long time, smearing its accumulated pee and poop all over the place.

What I'm saying is that glue traps are outdated, unhygienic and could possibly cause even more health issues. Any health department who recommends them need an updating on policy - these things are best left in the past, there are better ways of killing pests. But of course, they don't care, because it's all about saving $$$, instead of doing the right thing for both the animals and consumers. They are barbaric and should be illegal.
 

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Originally Posted by Clueless Git View Post

Opposition is one thing Kris ..

The ability to do anything about it is quite another.
Opposition leads to awareness... awareness leads to action. Word of mouth is a powerful thing - show people how horrible glue traps are, the rest will take care of itself. I believe that most people who use glue traps are simply ignorant of how cruel they are. Those who aren't, are simply indifferent. However, there are more people who care because glue traps have been prohibited in my state to an extent. Meaning that only pest controllers can use them, with strict guidelines - it is illegal for the general public to use them, or stores to sell them. This is a good first step to banning them outright. But it all starts from protesting their use, or through experience alone - I've known people who have used them in the past, only to find the results of their actions which led to them using other traps and encouraging other people to do the same. You do not need to be an ARA or a vegetarian to be opposed to such brutish practices. Eventually glue traps will be outlawed, it is only a matter of time - they are a relatively new trap and have been banned already in parts of Australia, several European countries and where they are not banned, there have been discussions about regulating them. Many individual stores and chains are not stocking them, so it's a start.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clueless Git View Post

A city without parks!Where was this hell on Earth that you lived in Bill?
Kitsilano BC-I still live here just two blocks from the old house that was so infested-this is my street.







Quote:
Originally Posted by Clueless Git View Post

Actually you were technicaly correct. The parks, most likely, already have their full naturaly sustainable quotas of rodents.
Not to mention cats-sorry to interject more nasty Real World thinking into your reverie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clueless Git View Post

One of veganisms uses, Bill, is that going a little further involves thinking a little further.
Wingnuttery noted-your rarified atmosphere appeals to few and counts for little-it was ever thus.
 

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Originally Posted by Bill Barilko View Post

Again your lack of Real World experience trips you up-that's not how it works not even close.

Health Departments don't accept dubious certificates from third parties they inspect the premises personally until they are satisfied there is no evidence of infestation.

One tiny mouse turd will bring the whole deck of cards crashing down-companies must be diligent and use Health Dept accepted pest control methods.

The lives of few mice don't count for sh!t beside someone's livelihood-did you not know that?
Any chance you could dial it down a bit considering that a good number of the people here are vegans and looking for the kindest solution in any instance? I think your judgement calls on the 'rest of us' are a little harsh.

I never suggested that the Health Department wouldn't do an inspection and should simply accept a copy of the billing from a company that 'seals' buildings. What I did say is that providing the copy would be proof that they had indeed done something and it would be supported by the inspection. And what exactly suggests that a company that seals buildings would provide a dubious certificate? Or is that just your effort to bolster your position?

And considering that thousands of farmers milking cows and raising beef and all the others are reliant on an industry that kills animals and if the numbers of vegans and vegetarians grows some of them will be impacted to some degree, why are you even a vegetarian? I mean the lives of a few thousand cows aren't worth **** compared to someones livelihood right? At least according to you.
 

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MOD POST

The off-topic bickering and personal attacks have been removed. Please stay on topic, and be respectful.
 

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I had a mouse problem; apparently it has been a problem in my building. I cleaned my entire apartment, top to bottom, and sealed all food stuffs in airtight containers. I searched every nook and cranny for possible entrance points and blocked them. As a further preventative measure, I sprayed peppermint oil at the entrances (blocks the scent of food). I continue to be extremely careful about leaving food out, etc, etc. Haven't had a problem since. I realize that ridding a one bedroom suite is at a much smaller scale than what the tofu factory needed to do, but it I can't imagine that it is impossible to do so.
 
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