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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Vegan/Vegtarian Land
Any vegans and vegetarians want to put some money together and buy a piece of land that we can each do whatever with?

I think it would be nice to get a group together and jointly buy a piece of land that we can each retreat to once in a while or permanently. I think it would be great if we just kept it natural, lived in tents/mud houses etc. Maybe we could form some sort of tribe?
Just thoughts, I have no fixed ideas about it, I'd rather just get a big group of people together and somehow make everyone the president, equal say etc. and just let everyones thoughts and opinions jell together and create something we all agree on. Just another thought, I think we should use some kind of Anarchy principle to "run" it, when I say "anarchy" I typically mean to refer to a society without a publicly enforced government, violently enforced political authority, chief, leader, party, leading team etc. Not the usage of the term intended to imply political disorder or lawlessness within a society.
There, we would just naturally let people form into groups concerned with different things, and just totally let it work it's self out, without trying to control or direct anyone.
By being vegan/vegetarian we've probably already vertually eliminated much of the root thought pattern which results in greed/violence etc. So personally I don't see the need for a centralised control/directing group.

Again not really any fixed ideas, but it would be nice if I can find people who generally think along the same train of though, if I can't then we can work something else out.

If you're keen, please join me and let's discuss it on linkedin.com, search for "VegNation"
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrisMTL View Post

So we just ditch our lives and invest all our life savings in tents and lentils?
He has previously stated in his original thread that he wants to start a cult.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegan_Ninja View Post

Would any one be keen to team up and form a nomadic high-techish tribe?


First we could start out in the bush somewhere, where we're not going to bother anyone,
This part sounds comfortingly familiar. If you have a cool location, PM me. I'll bring the DJ's and rent-a-tribe.


Quote:
The community may be a little crued to start with, for example we might initially live in tents and houses made of mud, but we'll incorporate what ever more high tech methods we have at our disposal at the same time. At first, whatever we can get away with doing the low-tech way we do the low-tech way, and we incorporate the high tech way where ever we can initially afford to. Also, it might initially involve a bit of "freeganism", whereby teams of individuals go around scavenging and acquiring what ever bits of used technology, machinery tools etc. they can get their hands on.
Forget this bit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
You are mostly pseudoskeptics, many things you label "seudo scientific" can all be proven to you if you just open your mind and spend some time developing these abilities so you can see it for your selves. Pseudoskepticism that is - arguments which use scientific-sounding language to disparage or refute given beliefs, theories, or claims, but which in fact fail to follow the precepts of conventional scientific skepticism. Scientific skepticism is agnostic to new ideas, making no claims about them but waiting for them to satisfy a burden of proof before granting them validity. Pseudoskepticism, by contrast, involves "negative hypotheses" - theoretical assertions that some belief, theory, or claim is factually wrong - without satisfying the burden of proof that such negative theoretical assertions would require.

And you've used a similar thought pattern to try and label me a cultist.
 

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Are you a real person OP?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Pseudo-skeptics like you do the following, let me use the reality of an afterlife as an example:

(1) Claim that science already knows everything, and since it doesn't include the reality of an afterlife, it can't exist. This is referred to as scientism.

(2) Claim that the assumptions underlying consciousness and death are empirical facts that science has already proven.

(3) Have already decided that an afterlife is impossible, even though evidence has not ruled it out, and they are not interested in participating in a debate anyway.

(4) Make claims such as "Consciousness cannot survive death" and they base it on scientific expertise they don't have.

(5) Are skeptical only about near-death experiences instead of applying their skepticism equally to normal and paranormal claims, and even to their own skepticism.

(6) Respond to claims that were not made, such as: "Since near-death experiences have a brain chemical connection, there is no afterlife."

(7) Argue that an afterlife contradicts established theories of nature, and because all other alternative explanations of near-death experiences have been exhausted, claims of the existence of an afterlife are fraud.

(8) Firmly believe that an afterlife is impossible regardless of any evidence.
(9) Refuse to see the entire body of circumstantial evidence supporting the existence of an afterlife by claiming that near-death experiences are just a hallucination.

(10) Debunk near-death experiences by associating them with something else such as: "If we suppose that an afterlife exists, then we might just as well suppose werewolves exist."

(11) Resort to personal attacks, such as, "These people are nuts!" instead of focusing on the issue at hand. This last insult on me "Are you a real person OP? " is a perfect example of that... Dooshbag
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegan_Ninja View Post

Pseudo-skeptics like you do the following, let me use the reality of an afterlife as an example:

(1) Claim that science already knows everything, and since it doesn't include the reality of an afterlife, it can't exist. This is referred to as scientism.

(2) Claim that the assumptions underlying consciousness and death are empirical facts that science has already proven.

(3) Have already decided that an afterlife is impossible, even though evidence has not ruled it out, and they are not interested in participating in a debate anyway.

(4) Make claims such as "Consciousness cannot survive death" and they base it on scientific expertise they don't have.

(5) Are skeptical only about near-death experiences instead of applying their skepticism equally to normal and paranormal claims, and even to their own skepticism.

(6) Respond to claims that were not made, such as: "Since near-death experiences have a brain chemical connection, there is no afterlife."

(7) Argue that an afterlife contradicts established theories of nature, and because all other alternative explanations of near-death experiences have been exhausted, claims of the existence of an afterlife are fraud.

(8) Firmly believe that an afterlife is impossible regardless of any evidence.
(9) Refuse to see the entire body of circumstantial evidence supporting the existence of an afterlife by claiming that near-death experiences are just a hallucination.

(10) Debunk near-death experiences by associating them with something else such as: "If we suppose that an afterlife exists, then we might just as well suppose werewolves exist."

(11) Resort to personal attacks, such as, "These people are nuts!" instead of focusing on the issue at hand. This last insult on me "Are you a real person OP? " is a perfect example of that
lost it right there.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by River View Post

He has previously stated in his original thread that he wants to start a cult.
By definition of what a cult is what VN has proposed, in the strictest terms, actualy isn't.

Closer to 'commune' if anything.

Personaly I don't think it's very well thought out. A not very well thought idea is NOT a problem for as long as the process of thinking the idea through continues.

Most certainly an idea in progress is more worthy than no ideas going on whatsoever.

Short of that: VN, whether you are a total fruit-bat or a genius in the making is not clear yet. Which ever it may be I like you
 

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Okay, wait. What does this have at all to do with science and the afterlife?

EDIT: In the original thread, there is a post by him that basically says "That has nothing to do with my cult. By the way, it's not a cult."
 

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Speaking from experience politics will be the end of the system you are looking to set up! like me you should learn from my mistakes. First of all YOU will need to buy the land you need with YOUR OWN money and not try and percentage it out to other people and then you can make ALL of the major decisions, like the land you purchase and the rules and governmental policy's that you will use. so by making all of the major decisions your way there will be no real politics to get in the way when it finally comes to opening your doors to the people, and if they don't like the rules that you have set down then you can tell them stiff sh*t!

I myself all ready own the land that I will be using for my system. I will have a few main rules that will not be altered in any way like
* to each according to there needs, from each according to there abilities.
*there will be no meat allowed on the premises,
*no hallucinogenic substances and
*no alcohol.

Once I have made all of the major decisions that need to be made to get it all on it's feet and up and running the governmental system will change slightly so that the masses of the people have ALL of the power using the great Islamic socialist Jamahiriya political system or a direct democracy where the people govern the people!

But the main thing you will need to do is follow the KISS principle(Keep It Simple Stupid) and don't try and go high tech like zeitgeist and keep it small I.e. no bigger than about 6 families or about 30 people. Go back it a simpler way of life, grow your own food using organic principals, generate your own power, and strive for a self sufficient and a sustainable life style.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
There's no need to try and go as high-tech as ZG, but if I can get more of "me" then people will be open to looking into using what ever usefull and overlooked technology is available. For example perpetual megnetic motors, (they work), ok you need to build a lot of them or a really big one to generate a significant amount of current, but I can easily get the permanent magnets and parts needed to build them from scraps, so if I can get more of "me" involed, then we'll have a team which goes around collecting whatever usefull disgarded scraps they can get their hands on.

Really, I have to say I need more of "me", not stupid dummies that are just going hold us all back by being like "but perpetual motion isn't real", etc. etc. Insted of having done their homework before hand. I don't have time for these people.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegan_Ninja View Post

There's no need to try and go as high-tech as ZG, but if I can get more of "me" then people will be open to looking into using what ever usefull and overlooked technology is available. For example perpetual megnetic motors, (they work), ok you need to build a lot of them or a really big one to generate a significant amount of current, but I can easily get the permanent magnets and parts needed to build them from scraps, so if I can get more of "me" involed, then we'll have a team which goes around collecting whatever usefull disgarded scraps they can get their hands on.

Really, I have to say I need more of "me", not stupid dummies that are just going hold us all back by being like "but perpetual motion isn't real", etc. etc. Insted of having done their homework before hand. I don't have time for these people.
You don't need to convince me that magnetic motors work, my dad made one in the
80's to provide power for the hippy commune he was a member of at the time, he made it out of an old bicycle wheel, my dads magnetic motor provided all of the power that the commune needed by using an old ride-on-lawn-mower torque converter and a car alternator.

The last thing you want is a bunch of people who has done their homework before hand when you are just starting out! because it is very unlikely that they have all done the same homework you have and everyone is going to want to do it there way because they have done there own homework.

You need to have a Dictatorship to start with to get everything all up and running properly. I know a lot of people here just cringed when I said the D word but you show me a good parent that isn't a dictator towards there kids until they(the parents) are certain that there kids are able to go out into the big bad world and take care of themselves.
And the only way for you to get total control is for you to pay for everything in the start with your own money! And once everything is up and running it will be easy for you to find like-minded people to join you, because if they don't like you and your set up they can go elsewhere, because after all you are only looking for about 30 people.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegman View Post

You don't need to convince me that magnetic motors work, my dad made one in the
80's to provide power for the hippy commune he was a member of at the time, he made it out of an old bicycle wheel, my dads magnetic motor provided all of the power that the commune needed by using an old ride-on-lawn-mower talk converter and a car alternator.

The last thing you want is a bunch of people who has done their homework before hand when you are just starting out! because it is very unlikely that they have all done the same homework you have and everyone is going to want to do it there way because they have done there own homework.

You need to have a Dictatorship to start with to get everything all up and running properly. I know a lot of people here just cringed when I said the D word but you show me a good parent that isn't a dictator towards there kids until they(the parents) are cretin that there kids are able to go out into the big bad world and take care of themselves.
And the only way for you to get total control is for you to pay for everything in the start with your own money! And once everything is up and running it will be easy for you to find like-minded people to join you, because if they don't like you and your set up they can go elsewhere, because after all you are only looking for about 30 people.
Thank you Vegman! I sure I'm glad to be getting a decent reply from someone that at least know magnetic motors are real.

When I say I want everyone to have done there homework, all I really mean is that they should at the very least know that things like magnetic motors are an option, if not it will be extremely difficult if not impossible for me to get other significant points accros to them.
They might not necessarily have to be well informed about such things, but if they know they're an option, then bonus points for them. Long story short, if someone wasn't vegeterian but knew about magnetic motors, then they're good enough. Energy is a crucially important matter, and my team needs to have coherence in at least that they all know about these options.

Probably your right, semi-dictatorship at first, but I'd altermately aim for Anarchisim. When I use the term "anarchy", I typically mean to refer to a society without a publicly enforced government or violently enforced political authority, not the usage of the term intended to imply political disorder or lawlessness within a society.

How do things get done in a group like this? Well, as an example take a look at how Anonymous works. They use a big advanced message board where people simply advertise which direction they wish to head in or what they wish to accomplish, thus decision making happens on the individual level, and when a critical mass is reached for a particular concern area (advertisement), they get together and do it. It's simple.
Ok, there might be some hustle and bustle at first, but after a while when people become accustomed to this method of achieving full or partial uniformity to accomplish a task, the community will grow wiser and stronger together, and become quicker at arriving at good decisions.

This ideal may include elements of Technocracy and an RBE (resource based economy), but certainly not limited to or gorverned by it in any way. Zeitgeist claims the best way is to base the decision making on maximum sustainability and the most advanced scientific findings they preseantly know. However I disagree with this theory, if we leave everything up to what we assume is maximum sustainability and the latest scientific findings (do they even so much as consider magnetic motors? No! They lable it hoaxes and pseudo-science, here's your proof you see), we are underminding one core aspect of our human ability to make decions, that is our intuition, the fact that humans are naturally psychic, each to some digree, and decision making using the critical mass anarchy method just described, could potentially yield much more effictive decsions, if coupled with the Technocratic method. Too many technocrats totally desmiss our intuitive ability to make decisions, labelling it "pseudo-sciecnce". So, it's not true science, you see.

I made big long appeal and entered into a huge debate regarding my idea for what I called "holistic technocracy" (basically what I just described) in the EOS (European Organisation for Sustainability) forum. However due to the orthodox and conservative nature of their train of thought, they all disagreed with me, labelling me an eccentric hippy. So here I am back at squar one, hopefully in a more appropriate and open minded forum this time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
As well as an electronic message board, we'd need an advanced electronic discussion arena, and some other high-tech softwear (which already exists) allowing everyone to vote (using transperant voting softwear) for all sorts of descisions, group ventures, create new concern areas etc. together creating a sophisticated group interaction network, allowing specific uniformities to eventually be reached to accomplish various tasks.

Some might say, of cause as you mentioned "keep it simple, no computers, it's trying to be too advanced like zeitgeist". Actually, I don't think so, computers are no big deal (ok, maybe I should supply the land, but there's no way in hell I'm going to buy a laptop for every one, they can bring their own damn computer), all we do is, everyone one simply brings a laptop along with them to the commune and we form a computer network or "intranet", linking everyone together.

It will not be easy to start with, everyone may need to spend say 2 hours a day reading updates, sharing ideals, joining other concern areas, voting etc. And discsion making will be very slow, as it will take time for concern areas to be though up and advertised by people, and time for people to join them, for a critical mass to develop, and more time to reach uniformity in various concern areas. Simply put, the system would effectively make everyone the president, and thus give everyone the burdens and responsability of a president, however I'd say it's better everyone individually expend some effort, and become well informed and educated, rather than leaving this all up to one group or leader at the top, the pressures of which could easily make them snap at any time and start going corrupt.

There will be internal conflict, however rather than trying to patch it up, we will embrace it as a sign that we are making progress. Any system which uses rules and laws to try and control or influence the behaviour in society is simply patchwork for a train of thought which is by and large inherently flawed. When someone breaks the rules, they are punished, get pissed off, and the cycle continues. If productive conflict and crime is allowed to take place on ther other hand, it provides a way out of this viscious cycle, and a means for everyone to advance together.

Anarchism, rather than trying to limit conflict and creat patch work, allows for a society in which productive conflict can take place, which ultimately allows everyone to grow wiser and move on together. Most of the conflict that will take place on the message boards and descussion arena, will be productive.

Outside of that, in the society it's self, any fights that break out will be allowed to happen, however if they do one or several concern areas will surely form concerning policing matters. Civilian "police" that is, not led by a higher controling authority.
However this civilian police force might start going corrupt, and then other concern areas will arise concerning this corruption, and then more productive internal conflicts and fights will break out. But, that's actually a good thing.

Anyway, most of this won't concern a small commune of 30-40 people directly, but this is how it would work if it progressed to say a small city.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegman View Post

But the main thing you will need to do is follow the KISS principle(Keep It Simple Stupid)
Archlinux Powaaaa !!!

Now we're speaking high tech, oh yeah !

P.S. : i disagree with anyone calling you an eccentric hippie, hippies wouldn't create any kind of police force, and would prefer live discussions face to face than computers.

All this computer voting makes me wanna have fun with backtrack and your votes lol.
 
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