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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Any one coming to post here in this thread must believe beyond any shadow of a doubt in the holy pseudo-scientific trinty of Free Energy, Chi (Ki, Prana, Life force energy etc.) and Astral Projection. If you don't have 100% faith in the holy trinity, then then you might find this boaring, and I would prefer to talk to like minded peopl.<br><br>
Firstly, let me introduce my self. I'm 25, New Zealand born Dane, currently living in China with my Chinese wife, and casually teaching english, however we're both leaving to Demark soon, where we'll stay for a bit before returning to NZ. I'm vigorously active in Tai Chi Chuan and meditation, plus I have a keen interest in science and technology, so I tend to look at things in an all inclusive, holistic way. And of cause, I'm a vegan.<br><br>
I'm searching for like minded individuals, who don't HAVE TO be vegan, to start a Sustainable, High-Tech, Holistic, Scientific, freegan, Vegan Commune with, involving the scientific and holistic method (which may involve esoteric and "spiritual" knowledge) applied to social concern.<br><br><br>
The community may be a little crued to start with, for example we might initially live in tents and houses made of mud, but we'll incorporate what ever more high tech methods we have at our disposal at the same time. At first, whatever we can get away with doing the low-tech way we do the low-tech way, and we incorporate the high tech way where ever we can initially afford to. Also, it might initially involve a bit of "freeganism", whereby teams of individuals will going around "scavenging" and aquiring what ever bits of used technology, machinery and tools they can get their hands on. In short I'd like to steer away from the monetary and conventional economic system as much as possible, as I don't believe it's a good idea to use it too much in trying to start a community which is free from it.<br><br>
My basic idea for running the whole thing is to have a team of specialists, i.e. by gathering a leading team with technical leadership skills, on the basis of specialized knowledge and performance, rather than democratic election of those without the knowledge or skill necessary. This team not only consisting of "Physical scientists" but also psychologists, sociologists etc. and also holistic, esoteric and spiritual specialists. However, methods which exploit living creatures for the purpose of scientific research, will all obviously be omitted.<br><br>
I suppose, you could think of it as a kind of Anarchy (when I say "anarchy" I'm not referring to the interpritation which implies political disorder or lawlessness within a society, rather a society without a publicly enforced government or violently enforced political authority), with the exception of a team of specialists apointed say via a system of meritocracy, who are merely there to advise us where ever we might need it, make suggestions, and perhaps help correct things in case they really got out of hand.<br><br><br><br>
This is just my basic idea for now, it's always open to individual input, nothing is really fixed or concrete, only that it must be sustainable and involve the scientific and holistic methods applied to social concern, as I mentioned. However I feel I should mostly only accept input from people who are genuinly interested and/or want to be part of it.
 

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I think it might be a good idea to try something less ambitious and less concrete / fleshed out in the first instance, and then maybe you can build on that experience later. And I think you would have better luck with a plan that was more open to input from people who join.
 

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I don't know about you guys but I liked chapter 3 the best.
 

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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/grin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":D">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Nishani</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3083658"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I don't know about you guys but I liked chapter 3 the best.</div>
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<br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/laugh.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":lol:"><br><br><br><br>
And Welcome Vegan_Ninja!
 

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Sounds interesting. I could see myself spending some time to check small commune societies united by ideology once I leave uni in a gap year or so.<br>
Don't know if I'm too keen on the "spiritual sciences" part.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Vegan_Ninja</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3083432"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
We will select a leading team with technical leadership skills, on the basis of specialized knowledge and performance, rather than democratic election of those without the knowledge or skill necessary</div>
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Are you not expecting your citizens to have sufficient intelligence/integrity to vote for the best qualified people?<br><br>
I mean no offence in the asking of that. Just struck me as curious, was all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Yes, I understand, and thank you all for your input, I've changed the basic direction of it, to make it more open for others input. How does it look?<br><br><br>
And thank you for welcoming me!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
No offence taking, by all means point any weakness/limitation/falt my model may have, and criticize it to your hearts content.<br><br>
Hmmm., yes that's a good point. Initially I thought some transparent system of meritocracy would work well, since everyone might not be that highly educated in the beginning, however it would be the top priority of the community to educate every to the highest standard possible so they can make the best judgments as to who should be on the team. The way you put it though, it's making me re-consider this (I'd like to say it's making us reconsider this, but I don't have a group as of yet).<br><br>
Yes I would expect the (not my) citizens to have sufficient intelligence/integrity to vote for the best qualified and most enlightend people.<br><br>
The system of meritocracy I'm sugesting, should also allow any regular citizen who has or gains some sort of relevant merit to become part of the leading team. Sometimes voting however, can become an egoistic thing, sometimes just resulting in those who ostensibly appear cool and clever, who can walk the walk and talk the talk getting in, which I'm sure you've seen happen in traditional politics a hundred times. This is why I'm suggesting a form of meritocracy, which is based on those who actually have achieved something and helped people (regardless of what they appear like on the outside) being considered.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Clueless Git</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3084011"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Is spiritual science an oxymoron?</div>
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Yep. The belief that they are not is either a misunderstanding of science, or of common methodology in spirituality.<br><br>
Vegan_Ninja:<br><br>
Science is a methodology, not a class of information. If you do not apply that methodology to something, it is not science. If you do apply it, then it is science (and needn't be qualified beyond that as a different category).<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>vepurusg</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3080032"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Science is not a series of 'facts' or any mere body of information, but a methodology of reducing (and ideally eliminating) subjective bias based on preconceptions from observation of our world. It is the opposite of a guess; it is the elimination of the influence of guesses on our perception of facts.<br><br>
It is founded only on logic, and the premises that:<br><br>
1. There is a true reality (if there isn't, there's no point in believing anything nor any harm in it, so this is a safe assumption)<br><br>
2. People believe different things, which sometimes conflict logically (thus not all beliefs are true)-- an evident conclusion of that being that humans have biases that can influence perception in a number of ways (if it is not a bias which can be controlled for, but instead the influence of some kind of 'divinity', then we have no free will and as such our actions are irrelevant anyway- making this another safe assumption)<br><br>
Given those premises, in order to have the best chance at believing what is true, we use scientific methodology to control for those biases.<br><br>
Scientific methodology can be applied to anything (even things considered supernatural- it can even give us insight into things like witchcraft, magic, and theology), but where it is not applied, all we are left with are assumptions- and following only those assumptions without caring what is actually true is fundamentally closed minded.</div>
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Typical spirituality is founded on Gnosis, which is a supposed direct link to absolute knowledge of the universe obtained without the use of logic or evidence. It is an assumption or bias taken to an extreme- the exact opposite of science.<br><br>
Spirituality can be understood through science, but spiritual methodology has nothing to offer to science (beyond hypothesis- it must step back after that point and not interfere in order that science be done to determine more objective truth) because in accepting any part of the methodology itself (such as Gnosis), science would become irrelevant- it would lose its objectivity completely and become pseudoscience.<br><br>
You can study spirituality, but if you want to do so objectively, you use objective scientific methods to do so and the result is science. One does not need, and in fact can not abide, the input of spiritual masters in this process (beyond their input to formulate the hypothesis).<br><br>
Spirituality is important to study, but if you want science, you have to take it for what it is, and not contradict and muddy its foundations- in doing so what you would end up with would not be science by any stretch.<br><br>
I hope that makes sense.<br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Indian Summer</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3083480"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I think it might be a good idea to try something less ambitious and less concrete / fleshed out in the first instance, and then maybe you can build on that experience later. And I think you would have better luck with a plan that was more open to input from people who join.</div>
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^ This.<br><br>
Particularly, I would say that foundation on an untested economic model is itself a rather bad call. I understand why, but it's not likely to result in functional success within the system.<br><br>
Capital is essential, and short of incredible luck, that only comes where there's money to be made for those investing it. Your plan hinges too heavily on volunteer work without explaining what possible motivations people would have to volunteer- and the living standards you explain (while they may be very basic in your opinion) are, in themselves, very difficult and expensive to achieve.<br><br><br>
The democracy/meritocracy bit is a bit more complicated, so I'll leave that without comment for now.<br><br><br>
Anyway, welcome to the forum! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br>
.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Clueless Git</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3084011"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Is spiritual science an oxymoron?</div>
</div>
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I should think so.
 

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'Lo again Ninja <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br>
I think you hit the nail right on the head by naming ego and those who 'talk the talk' as the problem with any form of selecting leaders.<br><br>
Those who's ego's crave positions of power (no matter how minor) will instinctively adapt to manipulate any system of getting elected.<br><br>
The real rub there being that it is the ego's of others that such people instinctively manipulate.<br><br>
Or, in short, wherever you have people with ego you will have a problem in setting up a truly merit based system free from manipulation.<br><br><br>
If there is a way around that it will probably only be found through some bizarre form of 'do the right thing and to hell with the consequences' type lateral thinking.<br><br><br>
One thing that does occur to me is that people without ego may not actualy have a problem with your original idea for election.<br><br>
Problem with that is that if the election commitee has ego then, you're back to square one again.<br><br><br><br>
Just bouncing ideas and random thoughts around here ..
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
like Vep. I'm. Not sure we are on the same page here in regards to what I'm calling "spiritual science". Have u ever had an obe? Have u ever seen an asral being?
 

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Then why don't you enlighten us as to what you mean by "spiritual science".
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Hey Vep. Were on the wrong page here about "spiritual science". What I'm talking about is not "pseudo-science but merely Fringe science, which is on the brink of what conventional science understands/accepts. To put it more specifically, what civilian scientists understand/accept, within the realm of the military they take these things very seriously, just because something might seem weird, they will at the very least persue it if it could allow them to say ascertain enemy activity non-locally at a distance. Having said that, it's a fact that psychics have been used in the military since the early 50s.<br><br>
Perhaps I'm still a little mislead here though. What I just referred to is still just on the energy level, or the realm of Qi (Chi), for example, remote viewing, astral projectio, telekinesis, Qigong abilities, Qigong applied to martial arts etc.<br>
"Spiritual" referres to the realm of the absolute, which basically we can think of as the ultimate Tao and our devine true nature, and the process through which we get there IS possibly the most devine science in it's own right. This science includes karma, course and effect.<br><br>
I'm sorry but if you really really disagree with this, and it's totally wrong etc. to you, then I don't think you're of like mind enough to worry about this
 

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<b><span style="color:#808000;">MOD POST</span></b><br><br>
Two threads on the same topic merged. I didn't want to delete either of the original posts, because they don't seem to be identical.
 
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