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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
<a href="http://www.savenaturalhealth.eu/" target="_blank">http://www.savenaturalhealth.eu/</a><br><br>
I imagine a lot of you have gotten this on the Facebook already, but just in case you haven't, it is pretty important. Basically, herbal remedies are under attack by EU legislation which will prevent their sale, everything from garlic tablets and Rosemary to more esoteric Indian medicines. Perhaps you think they don't work, perhaps you don't like them yourself, but this is not fair legislation; it limits people's right to personal choice, and is poised to make Big Pharma a LOT of money. This isn't even ideological; it's just economic.<br><br>
And bear in mind, this isn't the Daily Mail's stereotypical hippie woman sipping soil and bark tea and claiming it cures cancer and allows her to fire lasers from her eyes, this is practical stuff, like Raspberry leaf for helping women into labour, which people many of us know actually attest to.
 

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From what I understand, the legislation will require any 'medicines' to prove they work on what they claim to in order to be sold. I don't see anything wrong with that. Maybe I am mistaken though, I haven't bothered to thoroughly research it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Earthling</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2874009"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
From what I understand, the legislation will require any 'medicines' to prove they work on what they claim to in order to be sold. I don't see anything wrong with that. Maybe I am mistaken though, I haven't bothered to thoroughly research it.</div>
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It's pretty wishy washy about what qualifies as efficacy actually, and basically puts the power in the hands of Big Pharma. Not that that is the issue to my mind. It's just more pointless legislature telling people what they can and can't do for no real reason.
 

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<--- From the USA<br><br>
I'm confused. Can the herbal companies just slap a label on the bottle like in our country that says "This product is not intended to diagnose, cure, treat, or prevent any disease?" They also state "Consult your medical practitioner before using this product."<br><br>
Or even a label that says "For entertainment purposes only?"<br><br>
It works pretty well for us over here.<br><br>
They're not even allowed to put anything on the label that states what its commonly used for. For example... The raspberry leaf tea would probably have a label that says "For Reproductive Support" and its up to you to know how what you're supposed to do with it.<br><br>
Outlawing the sale of herbals just seems extreme. And how are you to regulate people buying stuff online? You're only asking for people to be sold bad product that can hurt them, you're taking money away from your own economy, and how can you deny actual medical evidence that certain herbals can and do relieve the suffering/symptoms of certain disorders?
 

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This is my thinking, Hazelnut. It wouldn't bad raspberry leaf being sold, it would just prevent the seller making claims about it helping women in childbirth unless they can prove that it actually does.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kappa</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2874047"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
It's pretty wishy washy about what qualifies as efficacy actually, and basically puts the power in the hands of Big Pharma. Not that that is the issue to my mind. It's just more pointless legislature telling people what they can and can't do for no real reason.</div>
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I see a reason. It's dangerous for people to rely on medications that don't have any real medicinal effects. Placebos don't work for everything.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Earthling</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2874321"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I see a reason. It's dangerous for people to rely on medications that don't have any real medicinal effects. Placebos don't work for everything.</div>
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People can munch Smarties if they believe it cures cancer for all I care though. It might be dangerous, but it is not as if we're not taught to rely on Pharma's medications first and foremost already. Turning to alternative medication, they are quite aware of what they're doing, and they shouldn't be limited in that by legislation that they have no control over.<br>
Hazelnut makes a good point in that people will just turn to the internet. Although I don't see too much harm coming from that, there's always the chance skeazy internet salesman will package any old herb with no understanding of what it is, and send people laxatives or something. For a more extreme example, look at how women in areas where abortion is legislated against order abortifacents online and how dangerous that can be!
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kappa</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2874047"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
It's pretty wishy washy about what qualifies as efficacy actually, and basically puts the power in the hands of Big Pharma. Not that that is the issue to my mind. It's just more pointless legislature telling people what they can and can't do for no real reason.</div>
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Actually the directive is all about quality control and claims of efficiency. TCM and Ayurvedic herbal remedies have been found adulterated with pharmaceuticals and heavy metals, so much that there are warnings to avoid all of them.<br><a href="http://home.caregroup.org/clinical/altmed/interactions/Herb_Groups/Adulteration_an.htm" target="_blank">http://home.caregroup.org/clinical/a...eration_an.htm</a><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12190885" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12190885</a><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15665751" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15665751</a><br><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62671-2004Sep4.html" target="_blank">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Sep4.html</a><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16011453" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16011453</a><br><br>
As for claims of cure, I don't care if some substance is claimed to cure the common cold - that simply being a relatively benign self-limiting disease - but I start becoming very angry when charlatans claim their formula can cure serious conditions like cancer and HIV/AIDS and have no scientific evidence to back that claim up. I know that people with life-threatening incurable conditions can be desperate to try anything, and this is what these unscrupulous quacks capitalize on. IMHO treatments that are claimed to cure these conditions should be regulated very tightly, as this issue is not any longer about consumer choice - no alternative remedy or treatment has ever been proven to be efficient for cancer or HIV/AIDS - but of consumer protection.<br><br>
Here is the actual text of the directive: <a href="http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:136:0085:0090:en:pDF" target="_blank">http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...85:0090:en:pDF</a><br><br>
So it's not such a boogeyman that the propaganda video makes it look like.<br><br>
As shown above, there is a very real reason for this directive.
 

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Their are several problems with herbal remedies and alternative medicine: one of the main issues is that when you purchase a drug, you are getting a certain amount of the substance in a controlled amount. Herbal supplements vary in strength, depending on the brand and how old the plant was when harvested. So nobody knows exactly how much of the 'working' chemical you are getting. This is potentially dangerous ( except when it is homeopathic remedies, which of course have no working chemical in at all)<br><br>
They don't have to be tested, they can just claim that they work for certain illnesses, diseases and conditions. Nobody else in the health industry is allowed this freedom - if a food manufacturer starts to claim that their product has certain health benefits, they have to prove it - or remove the claim.<br><br>
Herbs are NOT a safe and natural alternative. The ones that work have potential side effects - and if they have side effects, they need to be regulated. But consumers are led to believe that natural = safe.<br><br>
A lot of herbal remedies will have been tested by 'big pharma' and haven't passed the efficacy tests. Therefore they are not allowed to produce them, because they can't produce any evidence. So why should herbal medicine suppliers not have to provide any evidence of their claims? It is unfair to have one rule for one, and one rule for another.<br><br><br>
For many years there has been a conspiracy theory about how 'big pharma' won't test herbal remedies because they won't make money selling a natural remedy (hello? aspirin anyone?) ; and how the poor herbal remedy suppliers can't afford tests. This is patently nonsense. There is a lot of money in producing and selling herbal remedies (especially when they don't have to spend money on testing them). If they could prove that their products actually worked, then they would make <i>a lot</i> more money because they would sell a lot more product.<br><br>
All in all, I think it is a good decision. It is one thing to talk about freedom of choice - but most consumers don't have the necessary knowledge to separate scientific facts from fiction. So therefore we have two choices - educate the general public, so they will spurn herbal remedies based on the lack of evidence of efficacy; or regulate them so consumers are not wasting their money.<br><br>
My choice would be No 1 - education - but we are past that now. Therefore regulation is the answer. If herbal medicine producers really believe that their products work, then they can get the necessary testing done. I appreciate it costs a lot of money - but just some basic tests would be enough to get investors interested enough to supply that money.
 

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Hmmmm... Not sure how I feel about this..<br><br>
Won't affect me anyway.. I make all my herbal remedies myself anyway...
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>angie54321</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2880157"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
except when it is homeopathic remedies, which of course have no working chemical in at all</div>
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Is that true? I have a friend who swears by homeopathic stuff. It doesn't do a damn thing for me, and this would explain why.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>sequoia</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2880716"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Is that true? I have a friend who swears by homeopathic stuff. It doesn't do a damn thing for me, and this would explain why.</div>
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They are sugar pills. The active ingredient has been diluted so many times it exists in such a small quantity that it is non existent.<br><br>
There is a saying: if you have a cold do nothing and it will be gone in a week. Or take a homeopathic remedy and it will be gone in seven days. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/wink3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=";)"><br><br>
You might find this enlightening: <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/nov/16/sciencenews.g2" target="_blank">http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...sciencenews.g2</a><br><br>
If you enjoy that, you will enjoy his site: <a href="http://www.badscience.net" target="_blank">www.badscience.net</a><br>
He is pretty fair when it comes to medicine and other remedies - he never gives 'big pharma' an easy ride, either.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>angie54321</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2880947"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
They are sugar pills. The active ingredient has been diluted so many times it exists in such a small quantity that it is non existent.</div>
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12C is the last homeopathic dilution that has a working chance of having <i>a single molecule</i> of the substance left. Most "remedies" are 30C, though they can go as high as 300C.
 

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Homoeopathic is a pile of crock. It doesn't work.<br><br>
But homoeopathic is NOT herbal remedies. They're different things also people often confuse the two.<br><br>
What I'm talking about herbal remedies is things like honey, lemon, ginger and cinnamon tea when I have a cold... I have that and paracetamol. For me, it works better than all the cold and flu medicine (like lemsip for example..) I know paracetamol is the main ingredient in the vast majority of cold and flu medicine.. What I'm talking about is the other ingredients in the medicines.. I get better results from my tea and paracetamol than I do from taking the paracetamol-containing lemsip.. Does that make sense?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Annia</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2881141"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Homoeopathic is a pile of crock. It doesn't work.<br><br>
But homoeopathic is NOT herbal remedies. They're different things also people often confuse the two.<br><br>
What I'm talking about herbal remedies is things like honey, lemon, ginger and cinnamon tea when I have a cold... I have that and paracetamol. For me, it works better than all the cold and flu medicine (like lemsip for example..) I know paracetamol is the main ingredient in the vast majority of cold and flu medicine.. What I'm talking about is the other ingredients in the medicines.. I get better results from my tea and paracetamol than I do from taking the paracetamol-containing lemsip.. Does that make sense?</div>
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It probably depends on the cold: I know most cold remedies contain paracetamol + antihistimines or decongestants - if you get a runny nose, or lots of mucus with your colds, medical remedies will work on those.<br><br>
I take a cold remedy (I do get a runny nose!) and also Vitamin C and Zinc tablets: not to 'cure' the cold, but to help my body fight it off faster. Veg*ns tend to have lower levels of zinc than omni's, and vitamin c needs topping up daily anyway.<br><br>
I find it interesting that some herbs and plants are being found to have curative properties: but these need to be properly tested and regulated if found to work. I am concerned that some people may overdose on herbal remedies, using the 'natural = safe' hypothesis - I'm not certain, but I don't think it is possible to overdose on lemon, ginger, honey, and cinnamon <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/wink3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=";)">
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>angie54321</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2881168"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I find it interesting that some herbs and plants are being found to have curative properties: but these need to be properly tested and regulated if found to work. I am concerned that some people may overdose on herbal remedies, using the 'natural = safe' hypothesis - I'm not certain, but I don't think it is possible to overdose on lemon, ginger, honey, and cinnamon <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/wink3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=";)"></div>
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No point in legislating because plenty of people abuse medical remedies even with that regulation. And while I don't have the time or inclination to write a huge response to everyone defending legislation, I think I've made my point that people have freedom of choice. They can educate themselves, it's not up to mummy and daddy to fix everything for them. I certainly don't put anything in my body without first knowing what it's going to do, and anyone that does has what's coming to them. Harsh? Perhaps... Realistic? I think so. It's like use-by-dates - people rely on being told what is good for them rather than relying on their own senses and education. We are perfectly capable of telling when <i>x</i> looks/seems a bit off, but we're being trained to doubt ourselves.<br>
Additionally, I do agree with everyone that quacks making money off herbal remedies is stupid. Herbal remedies are generally folk medicines, and shouldn't be commercial, but part of our oral/written tradition.
 

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The same thing has happened in Canada. I went to get hoodia the other day, and the herbalist informed me they can't carry it anymore. I never thought I'd be looking for a 'black market' to buy on! "psssst!...you!...wanna buy some kelp capsules?"
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>angie54321</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2880947"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
They are sugar pills. The active ingredient has been diluted so many times it exists in such a small quantity that it is non existent.<br><br>
There is a saying: if you have a cold do nothing and it will be gone in a week. Or take a homeopathic remedy and it will be gone in seven days. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/wink3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=";)"><br><br>
You might find this enlightening: <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/nov/16/sciencenews.g2" target="_blank">http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...sciencenews.g2</a><br><br>
If you enjoy that, you will enjoy his site: <a href="http://www.badscience.net" target="_blank">www.badscience.net</a><br>
He is pretty fair when it comes to medicine and other remedies - he never gives 'big pharma' an easy ride, either.</div>
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Thank you! I even asked her, "Why does this taste like pure sugar? And why isn't my headache gone?" Now I know <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/grin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":D">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>sequoia</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2880716"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Is that true? I have a friend who swears by homeopathic stuff. It doesn't do a damn thing for me, and this would explain why.</div>
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Heh yeah, homeopathy is bollocks.<br><br>
If people who believe in it want to keep taking herbal remedies after this legislation passes, they can. It's not like you won't be able to buy the herbs any more, they just won't be able to be sold with unproven claims of health benefits. Which is a good thing.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Earthling</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2881331"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Heh yeah, homeopathy is bollocks.<br><br>
If people who believe in it want to keep taking herbal remedies after this legislation passes, they can. It's not like you won't be able to buy the herbs any more, they just won't be able to be sold with unproven claims of health benefits. Which is a good thing.</div>
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Pssstttt.... Homeopathy is not the same thing as herbal remedies. Homeopathy has nothing to do with Herbalism. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>angie54321</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2881168"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
It probably depends on the cold: I know most cold remedies contain paracetamol + antihistimines or decongestants - if you get a runny nose, or lots of mucus with your colds, medical remedies will work on those.<br><br>
I take a cold remedy (I do get a runny nose!) and also Vitamin C and Zinc tablets: not to 'cure' the cold, but to help my body fight it off faster. Veg*ns tend to have lower levels of zinc than omni's, and vitamin c needs topping up daily anyway.<br><br>
I find it interesting that some herbs and plants are being found to have curative properties: but these need to be properly tested and regulated if found to work. I am concerned that some people may overdose on herbal remedies, using the 'natural = safe' hypothesis - I'm not certain, but I don't think it is possible to overdose on lemon, ginger, honey, and cinnamon <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/wink3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=";)"></div>
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I've swear I've had every type of cold there is. The tea still works better.<br><br>
I can kinda get where you're coming from with the testing but then again if you know what you're doing you'll be fine. Most of the things I do are things that have been used for hundreds of years. Old wives remedies etc. I don't need to have some scientist to do tests to tell me that what take has certain properties.. I know they do because they work. It's like saying that people shouldn't use vinegar to clean their windows because it hasn't been tested and proven to work scientifically like the bottles of the window cleaner stuff you can get in the shop has been.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">I know they do because they work. It's like saying that people shouldn't use vinegar to clean their windows because it hasn't been tested and proven to work scientifically like the bottles of the window cleaner stuff you can get in the shop has been.</div>
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Sure, but if you're going to sell vinegar as a cleaning product, you should be able to prove it does work. Since it actually does, it wont be a big deal.<br><br>
The way I see it, is it's wrong to mislead the public into buying a product. If the new legislation requires herbal remedies to actually do what it says on the box - I don't really see what there is to debate about. It doesn't mean you can't sell herbal remedies, it just stops companies exploiting people.<br><br>
The people who use herbal remedies on this board seem to know a lot about it, but a lot of people (including me!) simply don't and could well buy a product that really wont work if it says it will because they don't have the knowledge to distinguish fact from fiction - and why should they? We can't all know the ins and outs of every product we buy, which is why we need legistlation to stop companies misleading us.<br><br>
If anything, I'd be more likley to buy herbal remedies if they had to prove they did what they claimed - as someone who knows nothing about it, I wouldn't buy one because I'd have no idea if it was a load of mumbo jumbo or not. If I knew the claims were valid, I'd be happy to buy it.
 
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