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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
so, I set up a thread on another forum that lets people ask me questions about veganism...<br><br><br><br>
it has turned into flaming and people attacking me and my beliefs.<br><br><br><br>
can someone help me combat some of the following quotes?<br><br>
I have be mainly citing The China Study and also some personal opinions:<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">You do realize that there is a big difference between some guy living in a hut in China and an American living in a city driving a big car and working down at the car factory, right?<br><br><br><br>
Again, I agree Americans eat way too much meat. But the difference between someone who eats red meat in moderation and the typical vegan is minimal.<br><br><br><br>
You keep comparing yourself to some fat Boss Hogg type chowing down on burgers and puffing cigs. That is the hallmark of the sort of shoddy science these "New Age healers" peddle.</div>
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<br><br><br><i>in reponse to meat protein not being good for you</i><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">This is empty rhetoric.<br><br><br><br>
The guy is basically trying to make the argument that the fact that we can easily process animal flesh means it is bad for us because we will eat too much and get fat.<br><br><br><br>
Give me a break.</div>
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<br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Quincy, nutrition is one of those sciences that has been invaded by the new age crowd and thus lost much of its rigorous scientific nature. There is a reason so many physicians and others with physiology related phd's consider the subject particularly prone to quackery and approach it with such skepticism.<br><br><br><br>
You're just gullible, the perfect personality type for a cult.</div>
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I'm going to try my best to get to these now, but some insight and advice would be greatly appreciated!!!!
 

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One, these comments frustrate me. oy<br><br><br><br>
but I'm gonna try to help. The thing is, it will just go back and forth forever. BUT you might get just one person to check a GoVeg website and it might change their mind.<br><br><br><br>
"Again, I agree Americans eat way too much meat. But the difference between someone who eats red meat in moderation and the typical vegan is minimal."<br><br><br><br>
>>>not really. here you should paste in the facts about how many resources a vegan saves by not eating a "minimal" amount of meat. Also, do they know what a vegan is? It isn't just meat, it's ALL animal products. Ask them if they believe in global warming? If everyone thought "well I won't make much a difference anyway" would anything get done?<br><br><br><br><br><br>
"This is empty rhetoric.<br><br><br><br>
The guy is basically trying to make the argument that the fact that we can easily process animal flesh means it is bad for us because we will eat too much and get fat.<br><br><br><br>
Give me a break."<br><br><br><br>
What is their argument? "Gimme a break?" Is that their point? no use arguing with this person. They're just refusing and denying, without any thinking.<br><br><br><br>
"Quincy, nutrition is one of those sciences that has been invaded by the new age crowd and thus lost much of its rigorous scientific nature. There is a reason so many physicians and others with physiology related phd's consider the subject particularly prone to quackery and approach it with such skepticism.<br><br><br><br>
You're just gullible, the perfect personality type for a cult."<br><br><br><br>
Ahhh insults are always nice, aren't they? what proof does he/she have that it has lost scientific interest?! That's ridiculous!! What world does this person live in? People are and probably always will be obsessed with their bodies and their nutrition. And hey, if there's money in researching it, you can bet your behind it will be researched. BTW, Aren't all scientists skeptics? Skepticism is their job.<br><br>
Also, this person copped out by labeling all the people who don't believe that "milk does the body good" or that we NEED and were born to eat meat- as one large group. How convenient.<br><br>
Lastly? Their whole point is that all people who have "invaded" (I would prefer to use the term "questioned"), are kooks. So their whole argument is just an attempt at an insult. Does this mean they believe kooks are wong and animal prodcuts are fine for the environment? That it's natural? That it's healthy for you? They answered nothing.<br><br><br><br>
This is a half assed sort response from me (it's been a long day). But there are plenty of websites and research out there. And list some people who were veggies but def not considered "nutjobs." I always like Darwin and Einstein (well, maybe he was a bit kooky, but did it matter?).<br><br>
And anyway, all the people I admire, and many of the people who are revered in our history, were considered nuts in their time, weren't they? Hell, just a few years back people were calling Gore a nutjob because of his passion for the global warming cause....<br><br><br><br>
well. I tried. G'luck! Try not to be disheartened (that's the hardest part).
 

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I would just tell them that bashing is not what you set the thread up for and if they didn't want an honest answer then they should have asked another omni who would give them a wrong answer only so they can hear what they want to hear.<br><br><br><br>
Jackasses.
 

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I admire you for doing this. You have to figure that some of the nasty responses are from people who translate guilt into anger or "kill the messenger."<br><br><br><br>
Just my take...I would partially concede the point that in some respects, there is a continuum between eating bacon cheeseburgers every day and being vegan, and not all meat-eaters can be lumped together. I say partially because:<br><br><br><br>
- Some studies (published, peer-reviewed) show that even moderate amounts of meat, or certain types of meat - as little as one or two ounces a day - significantly increase the risk of certain cancers. (I can provide more detail on request.)<br><br><br><br>
- From a moral standpoint, eating meat "in moderation" is like killing in moderation, enslaving in moderaton, inflicting prolonged suffering in moderation. The difference between eating animal products and not eating them has a profound impact on the animals involved.<br><br><br><br>
I say rather than devote energy to inventing rationalizations for cruelty and unnecessary killing, why not just do the right thing and and refrain as much as practically possible from inflicting avoidable harm? It's not only moral, it's mentally a lot easier.
 

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For the first one, tell them that raising farm animals is very bad for environment because a large majority of plants grown as food in the US as fed to farm animals. The several tons of wheat that an animal will eat in a lifetime is all wasted on several hundred kilograms of meat. This means more land is used to grow plants, and more energy is used to raise the plants and animals. If people didn't eat meat, the surplus of wheat can feed starving nations. Eating meat "in moderation" won't change the amount of food these animals consume.<br><br><br><br>
-For the second one, post a link to <a href="http://www.notmilk.com" target="_blank">www.notmilk.com</a>. It explains many reasons why meat protein is bad.<br><br>
Also tell them that the human body can easily metabolize man poisons. But just because the poison is easily metabolized does not mean it is good for you.<br><br><br><br>
For that third one, that one accuses you of being a "new ager" and gullible, accuse them of being gulluible because they are falling for money-driven corporate propaganda. The reason why people like Robert Cohen (the maker of NotMILK) treat the claims of the dairy industry as being prone with quakery and approach it with skepticism is because the dairy industry are a bunch of money-hungry liars and they will do all sort of things to decieve people, so they can get a profit.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Seb_0810</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
For the first one, tell them that raising farm animals is very bad for environment because a large majority of plants grown as food in the US as fed to farm animals. The several tons of wheat that an animal will eat in a lifetime is all wasted on several hundred kilograms of meat. This means more land is used to grow plants, and more energy is used to raise the plants and animals. If people didn't eat meat, the surplus of wheat can feed starving nations. Eating meat "in moderation" won't change the amount of food these animals consume.<br><br><br><br>
-For the second one, post a link to <a href="http://www.notmilk.com" target="_blank">www.notmilk.com</a>. It explains many reasons why meat protein is bad.<br><br>
Also tell them that the human body can easily metabolize man poisons. But just because the poison is easily metabolized does not mean it is good for you.<br><br><br><br>
For that third one, that one accuses you of being a "new ager" and gullible, accuse them of being gulluible because they are falling for money-driven corporate propaganda. The reason why people like Robert Cohen (the maker of NotMILK) treat the claims of the dairy industry as being prone with quakery and approach it with skepticism is because the <b>dairy industry are a bunch of money-hungry liars and they will do all sort of things to decieve people, so they can get a profit</b>.</div>
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have you heard about the "study" that was backed by the meat industry in africa? they took already starving kids eating ONLY corn and beans and divided them in gorups. one gorup was fed as much milk and meat as they wanted while the other gorup was fed nothing but corn and beans. not suprisengly the kids who ate meat did improve there health. but it just goes to show you that the eat industry is willing to starve thousands of kids to get a study to go their way
 

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I don't have much to say, because I don't think people who resort to insults are worth debating with - and I will tell them as much and refuse to further the discussion unless they stop with the insults and can discuss like an adult (even if that means they get the last word in, as hard as that may be sometimes). When people resort to insults, it's because they don't have a valid argument. Insults are basically a red herring to take the focus off the fact that they don't have an argument, and place the focus on your character. This is not constructive debate.<br><br><br><br>
However, with regards to this:<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Seb_0810</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
For that third one, that one accuses you of being a "new ager" and gullible, accuse them of being gulluible because they are falling for money-driven corporate propaganda. The reason why people like Robert Cohen (the maker of NotMILK) treat the claims of the dairy industry as being prone with quakery and approach it with skepticism is because the dairy industry are a bunch of money-hungry liars and they will do all sort of things to decieve people, so they can get a profit.</div>
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I would have to agree. <a href="http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/pyramids.html" target="_blank">Here</a> is an article on the topic, which also provides a revised food pyramid based on actual <i>research</i>, independent of pressures from various industries. Note that red meat, white bread, soda, and sweets are all lumped together at the very top (use sparingly). Fish, poultry and eggs are recommended 0-2 times per day. Nuts & legumes are listed separately, with advice to eat these 1-3 times per day. Overall, a vegan/vegetarian diet fits quite nicely into this revised food pyramid, yet the typical omni diet does not.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>veg*nrunner</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
have you heard about the "study" that was backed by the meat industry in africa? they took already starving kids eating ONLY corn and beans and divided them in gorups. one gorup was fed as much milk and meat as they wanted while the other gorup was fed nothing but corn and beans. not suprisengly the kids who ate meat did improve there health. but it just goes to show you that the eat industry is willing to starve thousands of kids to get a study to go their way</div>
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I've read the actual paper on that study. If I recall correctly, they weren't allowed to eat as much as they wanted. Rather, they started with a stew that had no animal protein, and was deficient in plant protein and other nutrients. To one group they added meat, to another they added milk, and to a third they added vegetable oil. So they added protein, protein, and fat, respectively - <b>bad study design</b> - and yes, that was deliberate considering that it was funded by the meat industry. A control group remained on their nutritionally lacking stew. Nice ethics, huh?<br><br><br><br><a href="http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/ncbs_vegan_study.htm" target="_blank">Here</a> is an article on the subject, for anyone who is interested.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
thanks a lot guys.<br><br><br><br>
I've decided to just be mature about it all and say that both sides are going to be biased and more/less likely to believe certain "evidence".<br><br><br><br>
I didn't cave in, but I said how eating meat/dairy in moderation is better than the typical diet and expecting everyone to instantly go vegan is unreasonable. I let them know that I strongly back what I believe, but don't want to seem closed-minded or like I'm shoving it down their throats.<br><br><br><br>
I'll let you guys know how it goes, but it just upsets me when people say my choice is ridiculous, pointless, nonsense, etc.<br><br>
Perhaps instead of trying to "prove" how good being a vegan is, I can lean back more on the personal reasons that led me to become vegan. Afterall, understanding how I came to this "radical" change in diet and lifestyle will help them get a better idea of just why I'm vegan.<br><br>
it's not to be different or that I am gullible...it's not like that at all.<br><br><br><br>
thanks again.
 

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If being gullible means I question things that are shoved down MY throat "Got Milk?" and those commercials now that claim drinking a glass of nonfat milk a day or whatever will help you lose weight, or how it's even hard just to find a restaurant that serves vegan food...well then I hope to be the most gullible person on the planet.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>poppyseed</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
give us the web address and we can jump in as well?</div>
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That's against the rules, if I'm not mistaken. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/deal2.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":deal:"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/veganpolice.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":notvegan:">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Seb_0810</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
That's against the rules, if I'm not mistaken. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/deal2.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":deal:"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/veganpolice.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":notvegan:"></div>
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Is it? oops!!!.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>poppyseed</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
give us the web address and we can jump in as well?</div>
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you have to register in order to even view the off topic section, but if you want the address, PM me or something.<br><br><br><br>
the last guy is totally ripping me now, saying that I basically proved I have no argument and some other mean things. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/sad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":("><br><br><br><br>
*sigh*
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Quincy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
you have to register in order to even view the off topic section, but if you want the address, PM me or something.<br><br><br><br>
the last guy is totally ripping me now, saying that I basically proved I have no argument and some other mean things. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/sad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":("><br><br><br><br>
*sigh*</div>
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Some people are better not arguing with ..
 
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