[Roninway]

Hello everyone,

Thank you for to thank you for creating this wonderful community, and I really appreciate the opportunity to get to know you better. I only recently transitioned to a vegan lifestyle, and am still working through a number of moral and ethical issues involving animals. who initiated comes to mind is that of handling the impact of invasive species. I know that many of us aspire to give animals their space within the wild, yet what do we do when human beings introduce a non-native animal species into a new environment that is not ready to handle it? I am talking in particular about the introduction of prey animals introduced into an environment in which they have no natural predators, and predator animals introduced into an environment where prey animals have not evolved to protect themselves from them. The introduction of rabbits into Australia comes to mind in the former case, and the introduction of predators into New Zealand comes to mind in the latter. In both cases, native species are typically not able to compete, and in many cases have either been driven to extinction outright or have come very close to it. Setting aside for the moment the concerns of an area's human inhabitants, who are disrupted by these high animal populations, what about the local animals that suffer as a result. Since these animals are in all cases introduced to these new environments by human beings, I think that we as humans are responsible for dealing with the consequences of our actions. However, if that is the case, how are we to deal with these consequences in a compassionate way. Do we simply allow nature to take its course, regardless of the consequences for local animal populations? Do we introduce new predators into the environment to handle the increased prey populations? Do we kill them ourselves? What are your thoughts on this issue?

Thank you for helping me work through this concern.

Warm Regards and Best Wishes,

Jonathan

 

[4everaspirit]

It's nice to see that you care about this sort of topic and I'm glad you are questioning the ethics about dealing with them. I'm just going to put it out there that I get "extremely" heated over this sort of topic, especially since here in America we now have stink bugs that are roaming about everywhere that aren't native here. Many farmers claim that the stink bugs are eating their crops and they are trying to get rid of them. Alright, I can see how you would want to protect your crops, but at the same time, I get very irked at the notion that we can't share. After all, here at least, America is a "HUGE" throw away society, and many people choose not to eat their fruits and veggies and would instead go for their greasy chicken. I hear a lot about how kids will eat a bag of chips and drink soda for lunch but they will throw their apple away. To claim that "Stink bugs" are consuming a ton of crops, I think is rather biased, since a lot of crops don't get eaten by us anyway. Though once again, I know the farmer would still like to make their money even if their crops do go to waste and I can understand that. (Most other people just kill stink bugs around me, even though they know that bothers me IMMENSELY, and I just find that crude and unjust, whether they are an invasive species or not. Who are we to say who or what doesn't deserve to be around?)

I try to make my argument that Americans were technically an invasive species when they came from Britain to the United States. Not only did they bring a bunch of diseases which ended up killing many of the Indians, but they also spread and spread, consuming resources as they went along and altering the environment with their lifestyles. They "pushed" the Indians out of the way, which is essentially what invasive species do, they "push" and take over native populations.Was this necessarily a bad thing? I mean, look at where America is today? I don't think it turned out too bad.

I say allow nature to take her course. If we keep trying to fight nature we only delay the process of integration (if it is possible). Is it necessarily a bad thing if native populations get taken over by non native ones? Possibly, if I'm wrong and animals and inhabitants don't "adapt" to their surroundings, though that doesn't seem right considering that over the course of our earth many organisms have "evolved" and adapted to suit their changing environment. This whole thing might just lead to a different type of ecosystem, over time. That could be pretty interesting.

Besides, I find it very hypocritical for us to be "picking" on populations of other species, native or non native, when we have our own human population issue coming up that we need to worry about. It's kind of like "passing" the blame.

People are afraid of change, it threatens them because throughout the change process their own beliefs get questioned, and most would rather stick to what they already know. So, I can't honestly say if nature would adapt to these non native species in today's society. I always thought that species adapted to their environment in the past (though it would take a long time), so I would think it would be the same now. But I can't honestly say because I haven't fully seen this sort of thing happen myself.

Phew anyway. I'm not an environmental genius here, so please correct me on any statements I have made that you know are invalid. (some probably are lol) I'm just trying to remember stuff from previous years and rework it into a new thinking.

If we do deal with any beings, big or small, it should always be done humanely. When stink bugs, or any insect for that matter "invade" my house and my dad is so antsy to get rid of them, I simply scoop them up and take em outside. They don't actually "harm" anyone though some claimed they do bite, although I have never had one do that to me. Many people give me the o____0 stare though, as if compassion is somehow weird and frowned upon. xD

Anyway, sorry, part rant, part just putting in how I saw the whole thing. :x

 

[Roninway]

Hey 4everaspirit,

Your thoughts are welcome. I feel the same way you do about the stink bugs. They just come inside because they're cold outside, so I let them be. I still don't know how to compassionately handle having cockroaches or rats in the house, as both contaminate things and often carry disease.

Back to the original topic, I personally don't believe in killing animals when as a human being I can choose not do so. At the same time, I'm also not sure about the right thing to do in this situation.

 

[4everaspirit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roninway

Hey 4everaspirit,

Your thoughts are welcome. I feel the same way you do about the stink bugs. They just come inside because they're cold outside, so I let them be. I still don't know how to compassionately handle having cockroaches or rats in the house, as both contaminate things and often carry disease.

Back to the original topic, I personally don't believe in killing animals when as a human being I can choose not do so. At the same time, I'm also not sure about the right thing to do in this situation.

It's very compassionate of you to not want to kill animals when you know you can choose not to. I understand what you mean with "I don't know the right thing to do in this sitatuion." I am going through another issue where I honestly don't know the right answer. I want to pick the right one, but I just don't know o.o We aren't "told" the answer to anything in this world. It's kind of scary to think about. We just kind of have to do something and see what happens, and then take note of that.

I'd personally want for people to wait and see for a long time, to see if the stink bugs adapt to our environment. Who knows, maybe something native to this place will "evolve" to eat them as a main food source? :/ I found it hypocritical everywhere when people on radios, in newspapers, or anywhere, say "ohhh they have no natural predator!" Well.....what about humans? We seem to have made it so that we have no natural predator, doesn't that mean we deserve to be wiped off this earth because that means we can overpopulate in huge numbers? :/ So many hypocrisies I find and when I mention them to people, they just give me a o.* wtf look.

You don't know how to compassionately handle cockroaches or rats?

. I have read articles about people who did! Let me find them. Here is one about cockroaches. I hope it helps in some way. There is always a compassionate way. (I read a comment from one guy who got rid of a whole ant infestation without killing them

)
http://www.vegsource.com/jo/qa/qaroach.htm

For mice, you can buy humane traps. (I despise the newer conventional traps that have come out where you just set it down and it will tell you if the mouse has been caught but you don't actually "see" anything. Great way to curb off that guilt huh? V__V) Once you catch it, you would need to go far far out and release it into the wild. Some may say that then that would be cruel because they would be confused in their new environment and more likely to be eaten by predators. However, the way I see it, if that does happen, at least the predator got a nice meal and it was out of the cycle of life, better than people putting glue traps down and then throwing the dead mice and it's limbs that is knawed off, away.
http://www.amazon.com/Smart-Mouse-Tr.../dp/B000YFA7HW

I would like to add, you claimed that they carried a bunch of diseases and contaminate things. While that is true, you have to consider, don't humans do as well? Don't we pass off germs to each other all the time and sometimes get sick because of it? Once again, the "mice and cockraoches carry disease thing," I find, undoubteldly true, but rather hypocritical. That being said, I can understand that they carry more deadly diseases, like those you would have to watch out for. You don't want to have any contaminants of rat feces >.> So i can see the validity in that. Aside from "deadly" diseases, I think germaphobes are rather silly because first off, we need to be exposed to germs in small numbers so that we can build up immunity, if we don,t and we keep piling on the hand sanitizer, as soon as a supervirus comes along, the germaphobes will be the first to be wiped out because they haven't developed much immunity.

I hope I have helped in some way

 

[Roninway]

Yeah, it definitely does help. Thanks for the link about the cockroaches.

I read her entire questions page!

 

[ElaineV]

First, it's important to remember that we humans are part of nature, too. And we humans are the ultimate in terms of destructive invasive species.
We do always have the choice of just letting things be. We don't have to fix all of our former mistakes, particularly when our attempts to "fix" are usually based on flawed theories that have unintended negative consequences. The world changes and life goes on. It really is OK to just live and let live without interfering with the lives of wild animals all the time.

Second, if we feel that we must interfere then there are a few ways to go about that without hunting or killing.

1. We can use birth control. There are various types. For birds there are some types of seed that contains birth control. For burros and horses, there are darts with birth control in them. For cats, you can trap and neuter them, then release later. And many other methods...
2. Use deterrents. For example, many people simply keep a clean home and plug up holes rather than using insecticides to deal with unwanted bugs in their homes. The same concept is applied to unwanted pigeons when people put up barriers to places where pigeons like to nest or perch. It can be done in all kinds of ways for all kinds of animals.
3. Relocate. For some animals, we can simply trap and relocate them to another environment where they're better suited.