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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
(I thought about making that title something like "Francione DESTROYS the Vegan Society", as a reference to the hyperbolic HuffPo headings)<br><br>
A short story even shorter: the Vegan Society in the UK apparently has a magazine in which an advertisement was placed for a hotel/restaurant that also serves dairy/eggs. Francione disagreed very strongly with it, argued that Donald Watson would turn in his grave because of this kind of gross violation of vegan ethics, and then some back-and-forth has apparently been had between Francione & VS, and then even a rep from the hotel/restaurant in question has commented on it.<br><br><a href="http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/i-wonder-what-donald-watson-founder-of-the-vegan-society-would-think/" target="_blank">http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/...y-would-think/</a><br><br><a href="http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/its-not-1946/" target="_blank">http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/its-not-1946/</a><br><br>
I dunno if this thing will just remain at the level of a few tweets, Facebook discussions and blog entries, or whether it will become a wider gap. I really hope not the latter; in my humble opinion Francione's reaction is already excessive as it is.<br><br>
Thoughts?
 

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I for one can't wait to join Francione in his wonderful New World where everyone is vegan and there is not one publication, whisper or sly look inferring omnis exist.
 

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I think that this kind of infighting makes veg*ns look even more eccentric and fringe to the population at large.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>mlp</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2820020"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I think that this kind of infighting makes veg*ns look even more eccentric and fringe to the population at large.</div>
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This sums it up entirely. It also makes us look weak and unwilling to face the lifestyles we criticise. While we might find omni lifestyles untenable, if we allow ourselves to be presented as pale, ill looking hippies who refuse to be hear the word meat without doing a healing dance, we're never gonna convince people to let the scales fall from their eyes.
 

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<a href="http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7737283/" target="_blank">http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7737283/</a><br><br>
I shall post this in every Francione thread, because it applies.
 

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Heh, that little video rocked.
 

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Am I going to be the only one who agrees with Francione on this? Would it be okay if <i>The Vegan</i> got ad revenue from MacDonald's because they serve a vegan option, namely salad with oil and vinegar? If not, then what is the difference? Why should the Vegan Society (which is the holy grail to vegans - metaphorically) be tainted with blood? Even if it is the blood of calves separated from their doomed mothers?<br><br><i>The Vegan</i>'s rebuttal is very weak! Donald Watson accepted a vegetarian ad for their 1946 issue, and I am assuming it's only one issue, as it is specific, issue 2, Autumn 1946. In 1944, when Watson coined the term vegan, there were only a handful of vegans, and I can't imagine there being many, if at all any, vegan establishment only 2 years later. In fact, 60 odd years later, there are still some major cities that don't have any vegan exclusive establishments!<br><br>
I do agree that Francione can say some extreme theories, and little grey passes into his black and white world. But in this case, he is spot on! Shame on the Vegan Society!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Cedre</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2830000"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Am I going to be the only one who agrees with Francione on this? Would it be okay if <i>The Vegan</i> got ad revenue from MacDonald's because they serve a vegan option, namely salad with oil and vinegar? If not, then what is the difference?</div>
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I think the difference is that having good vegan options available in a hotel restaurant may be more rare than having a single (lousy) vegan option available at a fast food place.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Why should the Vegan Society (which is the holy grail to vegans - metaphorically) be tainted with blood? Even if it is the blood of calves separated from their doomed mothers?</div>
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I would imagine that the vast, vast majority of vegan specialty items which animal activists urge people to try, and which most Vegan Society members have bought at some point, are not produced by entirely vegan companies. As far as I can see, <i>supporting vegan alternatives offered by businesses that themselves are not vegan is the reality within which vegans are trying to have their positive consumer influence</i>. Buying a falafel dinner from a company that also sells dinners with meat is far from ideal, but my hope is that the more people buy that falafel dinner, the more the company will be inspired to offer other vegan options as well, and the greater diversity of vegan options will therefore be available for consumers to choose from, and the more easy veganism will thereby become.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Cedre</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2830000"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Am I going to be the only one who agrees with Francione on this? Would it be okay if <i>The Vegan</i> got ad revenue from MacDonald's because they serve a vegan option, namely salad with oil and vinegar? If not, then what is the difference? Why should the Vegan Society (which is the holy grail to vegans - metaphorically) be tainted with blood? Even if it is the blood of calves separated from their doomed mothers?<br><br><i>The Vegan</i>'s rebuttal is very weak! Donald Watson accepted a vegetarian ad for their 1946 issue, and I am assuming it's only one issue, as it is specific, issue 2, Autumn 1946. In 1944, when Watson coined the term vegan, there were only a handful of vegans, and I can't imagine there being many, if at all any, vegan establishment only 2 years later. In fact, 60 odd years later, there are still some major cities that don't have any vegan exclusive establishments!<br><br>
I do agree that Francione can say some extreme theories, and little grey passes into his black and white world. But in this case, he is spot on! Shame on the Vegan Society!</div>
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No, I also agree. Accepting advertising for companies that provide animal products certainly is an endorsement, ridiculous little disclaimers aside.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Sevenseas</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2830073"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I think the difference is that having good vegan options available in a hotel restaurant may be more rare than having a single (lousy) vegan option available at a fast food place.</div>
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I was trying to point out the extreme example as an effect, not as an actual example they should try to do. c'mon ss! Also, being able to get a good vegan meal at any hotel restaurant of that calibre is not really that hard!<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">I would imagine that the vast, vast majority of vegan specialty items which animal activists urge people to try, and which most Vegan Society members have bought at some point, are not produced by entirely vegan companies. As far as I can see, <i>supporting vegan alternatives offered by businesses that themselves are not vegan is the reality within which vegans are trying to have their positive consumer influence</i>. Buying a falafel dinner from a company that also sells dinners with meat is far from ideal, but my hope is that the more people buy that falafel dinner, the more the company will be inspired to offer other vegan options as well, and the greater diversity of vegan options will therefore be available for consumers to choose from, and the more easy veganism will thereby become.</div>
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If there was a restaurant that sold falafels that didn't sell any meat dinners...wouldn't you rather buy from them, and make their business more prosperous? And hope that the other one that sold both falafels and meat dinners went out of business all together??<br><br>
The point that was made against <i>The Vegan</i> was that it accepted ad revenue from a non-vegan establishment....and yes, it is true that even the most ethical vegan establishment will have ties to meat/dairy/egg industry in some form or shape....but not physically serve them on a platter! I am not claiming that the Vegan Society be pure, because I will be the first to admit that we live in an omni world and it is practically impossible to do so....but to try its best is what I expect, and accepting an ad for a non-vegan establishment....no matter how vegan-friendly that establishment may be is not its best!<br><br>
Lastly for the Vegan Society to imply that by accepting ad revenue from such establishment does not equate to endorsing it, is just plain rubbish!
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Cedre</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2830121"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I am not claiming that the Vegan Society be pure...</div>
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No. To paraphrase Francione, it just needs to be vegan. A vegan patronizing a food establishment that sells eggs and milk is very different from a vegan offering to sell eggs and milk for that establishment.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Cedre</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2830121"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I was trying to point out the extreme example as an effect, not as an actual example they should try to do. c'mon ss!</div>
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I didn't imply that you thought the Vegan Society should start advertising for McDonald's.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">The point that was made against <i>The Vegan</i> was that it accepted ad revenue from a non-vegan establishment....and yes, it is true that even the most ethical vegan establishment will have ties to meat/dairy/egg industry in some form or shape....but not physically serve them on a platter! I am not claiming that the Vegan Society be pure, because I will be the first to admit that we live in an omni world and it is practically impossible to do so....but to try its best is what I expect, and accepting an ad for a non-vegan establishment....no matter how vegan-friendly that establishment may be is not its best!</div>
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Isn't the point of that business having an ad on a vegan magazine that more vegans become aware of that place, take their business there, and try the vegan options offered? If they wanted more omnis and lacto-ovos buying animal products, I'd imagine it would be prudent to pay for advertising in some other context than a magazine specifically for vegans.<br><br>
So is the end result -- more vegans being aware of a place offering good vegan options, more vegans having business there and buying those vegan options -- bad? And if it is bad, then does not that signify that vegans everywhere should stop supporting veggie burgers and soy milks and rice ice creams, whenever they are manufactured by a business that isn't vegan?
 

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I've never really understood the argument against non-fully-vegan companies. Practically speaking, it makes sense if 90% of the population is vegan - you can kill those non-vegan companies with a boycott. When you're on the side of 4% of the population, it makes no sense.<br>
Philosophically speaking, I have a hard time seeing a meaningful vegan difference between a product line, subsidiary, division, company, corporation or society. A vegan dollar doesn't stay vegan very long, no matter the legal definition of the recipient.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Sevenseas</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2830135"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Isn't the point of that business having an ad on a vegan magazine that more vegans become aware of that place, take their business there, and try the vegan options offered?</div>
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It's my turn to host the vegan potluck for our local AR group. I haven't bothered to mention to any of these people that, since I live in a rural area, and have a large billboard near the highway, I went ahead and accepted money from KFC to advertise their establishment seven miles down the road, on the right. All because they have a vegetarian patty available now.<br><br>
Are you suggesting that none of the AR people I've invited over have a right to question or criticize me for an apparent hypocrisy? Again, the issue isn't about vegans buying vegan products from non-vegan companies. It's about vegans helping them to sell their non-vegan business.<br><br>
Though it really ultimately doesn't matter what vegans think. It's how it looks to the outside world. And to the outside world, when vegans do stuff like this it makes it seem impossible to really be vegan. This is why they believe people like Lierre Keith, who claims she was a vegan the whole time she was binging on eggs and dairy every chance she got.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Dave in MPLS</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2825768"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Heh, that little video rocked.</div>
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+ 1
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>SomebodyElse</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2830173"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
It's my turn to host the vegan potluck for our local AR group. I haven't bothered to mention to any of these people that, since I live in a rural area, and have a large billboard near the highway, I went ahead and accepted money from KFC to advertise their establishment seven miles down the road, on the right. All because they have a vegetarian patty available now.</div>
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As a vegan, I would not take my business to KFC whether or not they have vegetarian options available. As a vegan, I would take my business to a hotel that offered good vegan options (provided that there wasn't any completely vegan hotel nearby, which seems unlikely). So, in my own consumer choices, I already would make a distinction between the hotel on the one hand, and McDonald's or KFC on the other. I feel that I can then likewise make the same distinction between advertising that can lead more vegans to that hotel, and advertising that can lead more vegans to KFC.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Are you suggesting that none of the AR people I've invited over have a right to question or criticize me for an apparent hypocrisy?</div>
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Not at all, because 1) I see KFC differently than the hotel (see above), and 2) people always have a right to question and criticize. The Vegan Society deleted the thread where Francione was questioning and criticizing, and I don't think they should have done that.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Again, the issue isn't about vegans buying vegan products from non-vegan companies. It's about vegans helping them to sell their non-vegan business.</div>
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I don't really understand your distinction. On the one hand, we have the use of advertising which can then lead to more vegans buying more vegan products from a non-vegan business. On the other, we have vegans buying vegan products from a non-vegan business. Seems to me like the outcome is the same, whether vegans support a non-vegan business on their own or as a result of advertising. So if the advertising is bad due to that outcome, then vegans supporting any non-vegan businesses should be bad, as such.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Though it really ultimately doesn't matter what vegans think. It's how it looks to the outside world. And to the outside world, when vegans do stuff like this it makes it seem impossible to really be vegan. This is why they believe people like Lierre Keith, who claims she was a vegan the whole time she was binging on eggs and dairy every chance she got.</div>
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How does it make it seem like it's impossible to be vegan? Because a norm is promoted where vegans can buy vegan products from a non-vegan business? The only way I can see it making it seem like veganism is impossible, is by taking you to imply that buying vegan products from non-vegan businesses is non-vegan.<br><br>
I don't see the idea of "eat dairy and eggs, because being vegan is too hard" promoted anywhere in this context. All I see is "make vegan choices (unlike Lierre Keith does) by buying vegan products from this non-vegan business". (Which, again, is what countless vegans do all the time.)
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Sevenseas</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2830135"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
...<br>
Isn't the point of that business having an ad on a vegan magazine that more vegans become aware of that place, take their business there, and try the vegan options offered?</div>
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I understand that from a business point of view it makes sense to advertise to vegans that there are vegan options. That is not being questioned here! Even looking at it form <i>the big picture</i> stand point, it might make a difference to promote the variety of vegan options in non-vegan venues...and again, that is not being questioned here. What really the question is, where does one draw the line? Why does a vegetarian hotel restaurant with good vegan option get an ad place and not a steakhouse with an extensive salad bar? Why is it that dairy and eggs seem to be less offensive to <b><i>the</i></b> Vegan Society who was started by Watson, who coined the term 'vegan' to distinguish vegans from vegetarians, because he saw no difference between dairy and flesh?<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">So is the end result -- more vegans being aware of a place offering good vegan options, more vegans having business there and buying those vegan options -- bad? ..</div>
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the end result may be good...but at what cost? For that restaurant, it might bring in many new vegans, and even more vegan options may eventually become available. Meanwhile, the Vegan Society will be receiving ad money from another non-vegan establishment and another and it will escalate to them congratulating KFC for offering vegan 'chicken' burgers! Just like PETA did a while back in Canada!! The KFC or MacDonalds examples were'nt such a far fetched notion. Meanwhile, the Vegan Society that sets the standards of what veganism is to be, has congratulated KFC?? And all my omni friends are telling me that it's okay to eat KFC chicken, because vegans eat there now! Btw, I am serious about PETA and KFC's lovefest:<br><a href="http://www.peta.org/b/thepetafiles/archive/2008/06/01/historic-victory-peta-wins-kfc-campaign-in-canada.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.peta.org/b/thepetafiles/a...in-canada.aspx</a><br>
better read:<br><a href="http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/toronto/story.html?id=eb573477-4179-4d2c-bdb4-85e76cfa6f0d" target="_blank">http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/n...4-85e76cfa6f0d</a><br><br>
I say this again, I am not Francione's hugest fan....and I do think he doesn't always see things from a practical point of view. But in this case, the Vegan Society is being the baby! Taking an ad from a vegetarian restaurant may have been a mishap....in fact, it may have been an establishment that they honestly thought most vegans should know about, because it has such good vegan options. However, once this mishap was pointed out, they shouldn't have acted in such a disastrous manner and deleted any discussions about it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Cedre</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2830449"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I understand that from a business point of view it makes sense to advertise to vegans that there are vegan options. That is not being questioned here!</div>
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My point wasn't to celebrate the hotel's business sense, it was to point out that the intended outcome of the ad is probably not increased selling of dairy and eggs, but increased number of vegans taking their business there and buying vegan products.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">What really the question is, where does one draw the line? Why does a vegetarian hotel restaurant with good vegan option get an ad place and not a steakhouse with an extensive salad bar? Why is it that dairy and eggs seem to be less offensive to <b><i>the</i></b> Vegan Society who was started by Watson, who coined the term 'vegan' to distinguish vegans from vegetarians, because he saw no difference between dairy and flesh?</div>
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Let's turn the line-drawing question in the opposite direction. Let's say there was an article in the vegan magazine about good stores to get vegan shoes from in the Manchester area. And let's say the article mentioned a few stores in specific, and most of them would be some kind of punk-themed stores that also sell leather wear. (My example is imaginary of course, as I know nothing about Manchester.) Would you object to that? It would basically be <i>free</i> advertising for those stores, to have their names mentioned in the vegan magazine, and to have those stores promoted as places for vegans to take their business in. Would not free advertising be even worse than paid advertising? And would it be any less of an endorsement?<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">the end result may be good...but at what cost? For that restaurant, it might bring in many new vegans, and even more vegan options may eventually become available. Meanwhile, the Vegan Society will be receiving ad money from another non-vegan establishment and another and it will escalate to them congratulating KFC for offering vegan 'chicken' burgers! Just like PETA did a while back in Canada!! The KFC or MacDonalds examples were'nt such a far fetched notion. Meanwhile, the Vegan Society that sets the standards of what veganism is to be, has congratulated KFC?? And all my omni friends are telling me that it's okay to eat KFC chicken, because vegans eat there now!</div>
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Again, in my own personal consumer choices, I already make a distinction between KFC and McDonald's on the one hand, and a vegetarian hotel on the other. Maybe I should not make that distinction, but I do, and I think many vegans would make the same distinction (not everyone, of course). Maybe the vegan magazine would make the same distinction.
 

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I don't know why anyone would expect a different response from Francione. It's certainly consistent with his position(s). And I agree with him. In this particular magazine, advertising a business that sell eggs and dairy seems "wrong".
 
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