Father problem

ai_08 · Dec 9, 2006

My parents are more than happy that Im vegetarian. In fact, diet wise, Im the one setting the good example these days. But when it comes to my actual reasons for vegetarianism, my dad and I could not disagree more. 
He feels that I put too much time and effort into things like fighting animal cruelty and helping the environment- two of my biggest passions. Thinks that Im wasting my time on a pointless cause. He says that I should put forth the same effort into worrying about people. (If Im going to worry, he says that I should worry about more important things.) 
I find this very offensive and untrue, because helping the environment helps everyone, and I also try my best to help people as well. His counter to that is that I just dont seem as interested in the welfare of humans as I do of animals. 
This is where the faith issue comes in. The whole humans having souls and animals not so therefore humans are more important thing. Im already having issues with Christianity, the religion I was raised to believe in, not to mention my dad is a preacher, so this is all very difficult to handle without making my dad think the worst of me. 
The truth of the matter is that I dont think that humans are more important. I think that everything from a tree to a rabbit to a person to a little fish is important, and instead of letting me alone and respecting my views, he tells me Im wrong, and that the way I think is warped. 
Last night I was on peta2.com and I came across the article wool is baaad and I watched the video that went along with it. Well, to make a long story short, I couldnt finish watching it because it was too terrible to stomach, and it upset me so much I cried rather hysterically. And that basically proves my fathers point because he never sees me this upset over peoples misfortunes, and now my parents are considering getting me psychiatric help. 
I know that I am too emotional sometimes, and maybe seeing a psychiatrist would help me, thats not the issue. The problem is that my dad does not respect (nor does he even try to consider) my beliefs, and I feel trapped.

veggiewriter · Dec 9, 2006

Yikes, as the daughter of a pastor, I hear ya. :/ 
Here's the bad news: people who refuse to see people as part of the creation but instead insist that humans are a 'special' creation, set apart from the rest of the world by God and given special rights over the rest of the world, will not easily understand that caring for animals and the environment (or even, sometimes, other humans who identify with a different social preferences). And the whole human soul vs. just-bestial-instinct business goes back pre-Renaissance and is deeply imbedded in Western culture. :/ 
Good news!: More and more educated persons are realizing how fragile the ecosystem is. And even those who are deeply devoted to Christianity can often understand that G-d's commandment to A & E to be caretakers of the earth mean that in today's world, conservation is an important issue. Also, many understand that seeing cruelty to animals creates a deeply emotional response because (1) the animals cannot speak, cannot fight back themselves, and (2) because it often catches us by surprise--we were living around and using products that were causing such horrors and not only were we unaware, but we were complicit in the horror. 
I have no question that were you to watch a report on Daufur (sp?) or if you visited an orphanage in Eastern Europe or saw someone beating a homeless person or had a friend battling cancer that you'd not only react emotionally but would do something positive to help the situation. It's just that you have a limited amount of time in the day, can only handle so much stress... I think your father's insistance that you focus all of your compassion for human animals instead of other animals to be predictable, but wrong. 
Don't let him get you down. Every positive action is just that---positive. Creating a better more compassionate world to live in DOES help humans. AND animals.

ai_08 · Dec 9, 2006

Wow. Thanks so much. I'll try not to let him get me down. I feel horrible for not mentioning this, but my mom is a great help, so it's not always so bad. 
Thank you!

troub · Dec 9, 2006

To start, it is completely possible to help both man and animal. The greatest thing you can do for animals is just grabbing vegan things at the store instead of animal flesh things. How does this distract from helping man? In fact since veganism helps causes such as world hunger and the environment, it helps man as well. 
It seems a lot of the defense of Christians against animal rights is that we somehow take away from what we do for man. I have to ask them, what exactly do they do for man? And not to specifically tell me, because our service should be between us and God, but to search their heart. If they truly believe we should fight world hunger, or abortion, or whatever - what do they do? Send in 5$ a month to mochaclub.com? Vote for pro-lifers? Thats it? Anything else? Whens the last time they went out and fed starving people? 
Now I wouldn't say all of this to someones face, as it can be said a lot nicer, but it's a perspective thing. People are so quick to judge how little we do, because our efforts are towards animals, that they don't see how little they actually are doing to fight anything. <div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">19 dogs and cats, 38 animals in laboratories, 256 hunted animals, 1,902 cows, pigs, and other farmed animals, and a whopping 17,123 chickens die every minute in the United States alone. This averages out, that for every person that lives on an omnivorous diet in the United States directly contributes to the deaths of 93 animals per year. Of course the inverse of this is also true, and every person that abstains from flesh meat directly lowers the amount of farmed animals killed by 93 animals per year. </div>
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 <div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">While we are permitted to eat the flesh of cows, chickens, fish, and also pigs, dolphins, and cats and dogs, doing so may not be beneficial. The pains of hunger around the world could help be alleviated by a vegan diet, because "The amount of grains fed to US livestock is sufficient to feed about 840 million people who follow a plant-based diet"(12) A third of the starving population in the world could be fed on what the United States feeds to livestock raised for slaughter alone. And the resources required are ". . . more than 11 times greater than that for grain protein production . .. [while only returning] about 1.4 times the biological value . . . "(13) This is on top of the health benefits that a vegan diet offers, and the ethical benefits. Perhaps when Paul says ""Everything is permissible" but not everything is beneficial. . .".(14) it could be applied to the consumption of animal flesh.</div>
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So you see, being vegan DOES help humanity as well, just as a "side effect". 
Don't throw away the love of God because of the blindness of some people. We were given dominion over all of creation. This is true. 
But how should we rule in our dominion? As tyrants with an iron fist? Or should we look to Christ as an example of how he ruled us? I believe with all my heart that mankind is called to rule over creation in the same way God rules over us - with love. Shouldn't we mirror the image of God? 
God rules the "lesser" with love, and so we should rule our "lesser" with love. <div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block"> 
Isaac of Nineveh". . . was placid and kind and humble, and his speech was meek. He ate only three loafs of bread a week, with small vegetables; he never tasted what was cooked." (15)His love for all creation was exemplified in his writing on what a merciful heart should look like: 
And what is a merciful heart? It is the hearts burning for the sake of the entire creation, for men, for birds, for animals, for demons and for every created thing; and by the recollection and sight of them the eyes of a merciful man pour forth abundant tears. From the strong and vehement mercy which grips his heart and from his great compassion, his heart is \thumbled and he cannot bear to hear or see any injury or slight sorrow in creation. For this reason he continually offers up tearful prayer, even for irrational beasts, for the enemies of the truth and for those who harm him, that they be protected and receive mercy. And in like manner he even prays for the family of reptiles because of the great compassion that burns in his heart without measure in the likeness of God.(Homily 8) 
\t 
Isaac of Nineveh, in the 600's, before the onset of the mass slaughter of beasts of todays world, went as far as saying we should cry and pray for the animals - for all that suffer in creation. That when one's being is filled with the Holy Spirit, and compassion flows out with no limit, that man will weep and pray that all who suffer receive mercy. Such a thought is humbling in this age where the desires of the world rule in the church.</div>
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John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist Church said, 
\t\t
<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">I believe in my heart that faith in Jesus Christ can and will lead us an exclusive concern for the well-being of other human beings to the broader\tconcern for the well-being of the birds in our backyards, the fish in our rivers,\tand every living creature on the face of the earth</div>
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 Animals do have souls. <div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block"> 
Gen 1:29 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so. </div>
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The Hebrew word used to describe this "breath of life" is the exact same Hebrew word used when describing when God". . . breathed into [man's] nostrils the breath of life".(9) If this "breath of life" is what we equate to a soul, then wouldn't both man and animal have this? Scripture seems to be in agreement with this concept, for\t\t <div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block"> 
Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. 
Ecc 3:19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 
Ecc 3:20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. 
Ecc 3:21 Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? </div>
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I don't know how it can get much simpler then that - 
Never think that because the church, while looking as the mirror of the world, says that animals are nothing more then mere objects means that the heart of the gospel speaks of such a great love that envelops all of Gods kingdom. 
You have been given a spiritual gift, the gift of compassion. This is such a wonderful gift. If you allow God to temper and refine you, and develop your gifts, He can and will continue to use you as a beacon of love and compassion to both man, and animal, and all creation. 
------ 
btw, 
I recommend getting the book <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325&tag=veggieboards.com-20&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FDominion-Love-Animal-Rights-According%2Fdp%2F1590560094%2Fsr%3D1-1%2Fqid%3D1165637090%2Fref%3Dsr_1_1%2F002-7446465-2144048%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks" target="_blank">Dominion of Love</a> 
I don't really agree with 100% of the things he says, but the author lays a pretty convincing argument for the compassion of God being extended to all creation. It's a pretty good read. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="

"> 
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Over all, pray for God's whispering voice in all this. Allow Him to show you and reveal to you more and more of His all extending love. Pray that your father can see that God's compassion has no limit. 
As I studied, and study, the word of God more and more, and the benefits of veganism more and more, the more they intermingle and connect. I am fully convinced that an omnivorous diet in first world countries while biblically permitted is in no way beneficial, for either man or animal. 
Extending the compassion of God to the animal kingdom has brought me better perspective and brought me more comfort then I could have had while eating their flesh. There is such an awesome joy in treating our subjects with love. My prayer is that all Christians may one day treat their subjects the same way that God treats His subjects - with undying love. 
Have faith, for in your love you prevent 93 animals from torture and death, you assist in the alleviation of world hunger, and allow yourself to be fully engulfed in His love - by sharing it with all. 
Be a lantern in the darkness. And never, never, never, NEVER let people bring you down by saying you can and will never do enough. 
As a single insignificant match can ignite a forest in flame, a single person can ignite the forest of dark hearts that is the world. 
You have the lantern of God in your heart, shine it among men, for His glory, and for the sake of all creation. 
Walk in peace. And share His love with all.

Thalia · Dec 9, 2006

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by ai_08 <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a> 
Last night I was on peta2.com and I came across the article wool is baaad and I watched the video that went along with it. Well, to make a long story short, I couldnt finish watching it because it was too terrible to stomach, and it upset me so much I cried rather hysterically. And that basically proves my fathers point because he never sees me this upset over peoples misfortunes, and now my parents are considering getting me psychiatric help.</div>
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Well first, we usually don't watch videos of people enduring the same things we watch animals endure. If you did, perhaps you would react the same. Plus, I think with all the stuff on the news and violence in movies, we have become somewhat desensitized to these things against humans. It's almost as if when we hear about it, we feel like it can't be real, because we've seen fantasy versions of it so many times in movies. We can't distinguish between real and pretend any more. (to some degree) 
Maybe this goes against all the advice in self-help books, but I generally feel it's best to just avoid talking about any of this with family. I feel it's best to agree to disagree and never speak of it again. However, maybe your dad is bringing up the topic? Avoid this like a minefield if you can. Of course if he won't leave you alone or respect your eating habits, I guess you have to confront that. 
My family love animals dearly. I think this is precisely why they would get very upset or defensive if I talked about anything regarding animal cruelty around them. I remember once the TV was on and they happened to show a report on puppy mills and my dad got very upset and disturbed and angry at us for letting him even see it. I think this issue hits a sore spot with a lot of people and that is why it's so loaded.

gas4 · Dec 10, 2006

I think your Dad should be proud of you. You've identified a moral issue and you're doing something to right the wrong. Most people see things that are wrong all the time and choose to ignore them. You could mention to your Dad (at a time when you're not arguing about something) that you're thankful for his example of taking moral actions and helping where help is needed. It's clear from your post that you understand where he's coming from and I think if you took 'the bigger man' stance on this one you might get some peace.

Sevenseas · Dec 10, 2006

Getting you psychiatric help because you're upset about animal cruelty is, in my opinion, ignorant and childish. 
It would probably be best to avoid confrontation, but I think he would also need to realize that the way you emotionally react to something is none of his business. Aside from questions of etiquette, trying to dictate what kind of emotional responses are appropriate - how much you should cry when you see this and how calm you should be when you see that - is horribly controlling. 
If he keeps up bringing the issue, simply ask him how caring about animal cruelty takes away from caring about humans.

poppyseed · Dec 10, 2006

Its your dad that need psychiatric help!!. 
Get that Earthlings dvd and ask him to watch it. Then he may understand. 
His perception that people are first is an arrogant, selfish attitude. He is blinkered by his christian beliefs and see's nothing further than that. 
YOU are the one that is sensitive and obviously caring. He is happy to believe in the bible without question so he should be happy for your views without question. After all whats the biggest fairy tale, the bible!!! You live in the real world, he lives his life believing a book written and rewritten many times over 2000 yrs by men. 
Animals are continuelly slaughtered worldwide in the name of religion. 
I personnally find pastors/vicars and the like, bigots.

troub · Dec 10, 2006

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by poppyseed <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a> 
. . .You live in the real world, he lives his life believing a book written and rewritten many times over 2000 yrs by men. 
. . . 
I personnally find pastors/vicars and the like, bigots.</div>
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Go go gadget over-generalization! 
eta: oh and btw, I don't believe in a fairy tale, or mere ink and paper, but in the ultimate truth and holy divine inspired word of the living God. 
For it is written, "Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. " 
"1Th 2:13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers. "

das_nut · Dec 10, 2006

Well, there's probably a reason why you choose to focus on animal welfare instead of human welfare. 
If I could venture a guess, perhaps it is because the average animal is more defenseless than the average human. Or perhaps it is because you can do something about animal cruelty, but you do not know what you can do to improve human welfare. Or it may be your calling -- something that improves the world that you enjoy doing. 
Acceptance is built on understanding. Understanding is a two-way street.

ai_08 · Dec 10, 2006

Wow, you guys have all made some really helpful points. Thanks so much! You all have given me very encouraging words. Thank you! <div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by Sevenseas <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a> 
how much you should cry when you see this and how calm you should be when you see that - is horribly controlling.</div>
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^^””” Hee… He’s a very, erm, tradition parent. With the whole… his word is law thing. But I could not agree with you more. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/undecided.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":-/"> <div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by das_nut <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a> 
Or it may be your calling -- something that improves the world that you enjoy doing. 
Acceptance is built on understanding. Understanding is a two-way street.</div>
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You’re reply really stuck out to me, because that is really how I feel about it. My father’s calling is teaching the Word of God, and I think that this is mine. 
I’m sure that if when the next time we talk about this and I remember all the help you all have given me, it will help a great deal. Thank you!!!

MRSSHF · Dec 12, 2006

I was once attacked verbally on my blog by a Muslim gentleman who said I should concern myself with the injustice and suffering of man, not animals. My response was that, by teaching people to be compassionate toward animals, I am also teaching people to have more compassion toward people. 
Hitler was able to justify the Holocaust by claiming that Jews were merely animals, not entitled to rights or protections. Slave owners made the same claim about the people they victimized. If we stop placing ourselves above animals, perhaps we can stop placing our group of people above other groups of people. 
I truly believe that humans will know no peace until we stop abusing animals for our use and pleasure.

eggplant · Dec 12, 2006

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by MRSSHF <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a> 
I truly believe that humans will know no peace until we stop abusing animals for our use and pleasure.</div>
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Yes, I agree. For me, compassion for humans and compassion for non-human animals are intertwined. Just as torturing non-human animals is usually a starting point for those who torture humans, indifference to animal suffering is a starting point for indifference to humans. The more we turn a blind eye to the suffering in slaughterhouses everywhere, the easier it is to turn a blind eye to the suffering of humans in places like Darfur. 
I think you should show some of the replies in this thread to your dad!

ElaineVigneault · Dec 12, 2006

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by ai_08 <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a> 
Last night I was on peta2.com and I came across the article wool is baaad and I watched the video that went along with it. Well, to make a long story short, I couldnt finish watching it because it was too terrible to stomach, and it upset me so much I cried rather hysterically. And that basically proves my fathers point because he never sees me this upset over peoples misfortunes, and now my parents are considering getting me psychiatric help. 
I know that I am too emotional sometimes, and maybe seeing a psychiatrist would help me, thats not the issue. The problem is that my dad does not respect (nor does he even try to consider) my beliefs, and I feel trapped.</div>
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I can't watch a lot of those things either. They are way too upsetting for me. People stuff makes me cry, too, but it's just not the same. People make choices and do evil. Animals aren't capable of doing evil. When they are hurt they are always innocent victims. Their trust in humans and lack of understanding as to why we torture and kill them is simply too much for me to take. (My eyes are welling up as I write this.) Sheep are such gentle, trusting creatures. They are friendly and do absolutely nothing to deserve the torture they go through for wool farmers. 
You could try explaining to your father that it's not just the fact that animals are involved that makes you sad, it's that humans seem extra cruel and evil when they choose to torture defenseless, innocent vicitms like animals or baby humans. And that makes you sad and mad.

gas4 · Dec 12, 2006

MRSSHF and Eggplant, I just have to say how much I agree with both of your last posts. 
I specifically remember the very day that I learned about empathy as a child, it was the day that I realized that my guinea pig Patrick was a living, breathing, individual, independent little being much like myself. I remember being amazed.

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