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I just got done reading Meat Market by Erik Marcus and he makes a convincing point:<br><br><br><br>
"It is generally thought, by both the public and many animal rights activists, that veal calves are the most unfortunate and badly treated of all farm animals. Having visited both egg farms and veal farms, I personally believe that the average battery hen has it worse than the average veal calf. I think it's probable that a forkful of egg comes at a cost of greater suffering than a forkful of veal. And there is no doubt in my mind that a bite of egg involves more animal suffering than a bite of hamburger or bacon. For people making a gradual switch to vegetarianism out of concern for animals, I therefore believe that the first food to give up should be, not meat, but eggs." (page 22)<br><br><br><br>
Later he also comments on chicken meat:<br><br><br><br>
"Activists need to publicize the face that, compared to chicken, no other food choice demands so much suffering and killing per pound of meat. As it stands today, many people think they are taking steps toward vegetarianism by eating chicken instead of beef or pork. For people moving away from meat due to ethical considerations, chickens ought to be the first animal spared instead of the last." (page 27) (Here he leaves fish out of the equation and I wonder, in this context, what is take on that is.)<br><br><br><br>
What do you think about these ideas?<br><br><br><br>
Previous to these passages were pages of background and evidence that he based these statements on. I would have presented them but I didn't want to bloat this first post, AND I’m pretty sick of typing. I have a feeling that I'm going to be asked to cough it up though and that’s fine. I will if requested. I agree with him and will defend this position unless a more convincing one is presented, at which time i will defend and agree with that one.
 

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I thought freerange eggs tasted pretty good myself.<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/wink3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=";)">
 

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Even if the evidence given is the worst case scenario and even if there is a <i>modicum</i> of doubt in your mind on this issue, humans don't need the reproductive secretions of other species to survive.<br><br><br><br>
So why eat them?<br><br><br><br>
I would hope free-range chickens suffered less (though a lesser evil is still an evil) but they are still part of the meat industry; laying eggs is just how they bide their time before they are turned into meat.<br><br><br><br>
So I would tend to agree and conclude that, logically, if one's veg*nism stems from compassion for animals then eggs should be eschewed, not chewed.<br><br><br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
TJ
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Blobbenstein</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I thought freerange eggs tasted pretty good myself.</div>
</div>
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Also, if eggs are the most suffering per bite, I suppose you could simply reduce suffering by taking bigger bites. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/pibo.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":pibo:"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/carrot.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":vebo:"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/broccoli.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":bobo:"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/dancingbanana.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":nana:"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/santa2.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":santa:"><br><br><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/iloveyou.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":lovesign:">
 

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Quote:<br><br>
Originally posted by <b>jeezycreezy</b><br><br><i>"Also, if eggs are the most suffering per bite, I suppose you could simply reduce suffering by taking bigger bites"</i><br><br><br><br>
It doesn't work like that. Logically speaking, if...<br><br><br><br>
1 bite veal = 50X suffering<br><br>
1 bite egg = 100X suffering<br><br><br><br>
1+1/2 bites egg = 150X suffering<br><br><br><br><br><br>
It's the same amount of suffering in fast forward! Actually, you probably wouldn't get full as fast taking big bites, so you'd want <i>another</i> egg.<br><br><br><br>
-Gasp!- If there are about 10 bites/egg that's 2000X suffering! aaaHH!!<br><br><br><br><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/shocked.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":eek:"> And what if you wanted some ham or bacon (or both!) to go with that egg - or butter for your toasted bread...that was baked with eggs!! Or what if you wanted a big glass of milk to wash it down with! And then you put your leftovers in a ZIPLOC bag - produced by a company that engages in animal testing!! And then you forgot to feed your dog!<br><br><br><br>
That's like - a ba-zillionX suffering! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/bigcry.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":cry:"><br><br><br><br><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/laugh.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":lol:">
 

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On my path to veganism, I gave up liquid (cow) milk first, because I suspected it played a role in my sinus troubles (it did). When I first started toying with the idea of veganism as an AR issue, eggs were the first thing to go. On the whole (NOT every case, of course), it seems that chickens suffer for a longer extent of their lives than their cow/pig counterparts. They are (generally) stuffed in cages, debeaked, break their legs, get respiratory diseases..it's a miserable existence. Cows/pigs often have a bit better, until "the end". I'd have a hard time choosing between the suffering of chickens and that of veal calves, though.<br><br><br><br>
Fortunately, veganism frees me from making such choices. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>GNUmoe</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Quote:<br><br>
Originally posted by <b>jeezycreezy</b><br><br><i>"Also, if eggs are the most suffering per bite, I suppose you could simply reduce suffering by taking bigger bites"</i><br><br><br><br>
It doesn't work like that. Logically speaking, if...</div>
</div>
<br><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/whack.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":whack:"><br><br><br><br>
Um, yeah. Apparently it doesn't work humorously speaking either. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br><br><br>
But thanks for taking me seriously. That almost never happens. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br><br><br>
Next time I'll add more silly dancing emoticons to my post just to be safe. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br><br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
TJ
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>dizzymisslizzy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
ha ha! but seriously i thought 100% organic cage-free vegetarian eggs were okay. (i'm minimally lacto-ovo)</div>
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<br><br><br><br><br>
I think the '70s sang it best: "Now the world don't move, to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you, might not be right for some..."<br><br><br><br>
That, in my opinion, is what Willis was talkin' 'bout.<br><br><br><br>
I see it as exploiting another being for your own personal gain. Only in a slightly nicer way.<br><br><br><br>
Word. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/afro.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":afro:"><br><br><br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
TJ
 

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the egg and dairy industry is by far the worst in contributing to animal suffering, and IMO, worse than the slaughterhouses.<br><br><br><br>
better to eat fish and give up the dairy and eggs.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>jeezycreezy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/whack.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":whack:"><br><br><br><br>
Um, yeah. Apparently it doesn't work humorously speaking either. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br><br><br>
But thanks for taking me seriously. That almost never happens. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br><br><br>
Next time I'll add more silly dancing emoticons to my post just to be safe. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br><br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
TJ</div>
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I don't know if that was another joke- because I thought it was pretty clear MY post was also a joke. I knew your post was a joke, silly goose. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p"> But if you knew that I knew already, then you can all laugh at my ignorance. This thread should be a serious one and I'm getting confused.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>GNUmoe</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I don't know if that was another joke- because I thought it was pretty clear MY post was also a joke. I knew your post was a joke, silly goose. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p"> But if you knew that I knew already, then you can all laugh at my ignorance. This thread should be a serious one and I'm getting confused.</div>
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<br><br><br>
I'll bet Oliver Stone has a few theories on that one. Maybe check with him?<br><br><br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
Totally Joking<br><br><br><br>
PS. Shame on you for joking in what you deem a serious thread!<br><br>
PPS. That was another joke, though I am clearly taking liberties with the definition of "joke" here.
 

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well the limited number of eggs I eat, I could get from having my own chickens, that is if I had a garden.<br><br><br><br>
But eggs are in a lot of food, they are even in vegi bacon which seems a little unnecessary.<br><br><br><br>
I have started to use eggfree mayonnaise though-although I have got a load of egg mayo in the cu board.<br><br><br><br>
The moment they make a descent vegan cheese, I'll switch. I've never like the idea of eating dairy products but they taste so good.I worked in a Dairy Crest factory for 6months so I have seen a lot of milk which is ironic because I've never liked milk, except when I was a kid and we had free milk.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Blobbenstein</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
.The moment they make a descent vegan cheese, I'll switch. I've never like the idea of eating dairy products but they taste so good.</div>
</div>
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Yeah... who cares if the cows get exploited and emprisoned and milked mercilessly and inseminated artifically again and again and again and then when their time is up get murdered for meat. Who cares about the baby calves being ripped away from their mothers to be slaughtered so that the mothers can provide human beings with milk that rightfully belongs to the mother cow and her baby.<br><br><br><br>
As long as the dairy products TASTE good.<br><br><br><br>
Am I being aggressive? Yes. Your post REALLY pissed me off.
 

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what can I say?<br><br><br><br>
I tried to be a vegan for a while but found it too difficult.<br><br>
I'm weak?<br><br><br><br>
the trouble with extreme attitudes is they encourage people to take one side or the other- I bet there are millions who skipped vegetarianism and went straight for veganism only to fall of the wagon and go back to stuffing themselves the beefburgers and hotdogs.<br><br><br><br><br><br>
perhaps another post that will just piss you off. By the way, I think that most people eat cheese because it tastes good. Or is that a taboo thing to say in the animal rights section?
 

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what can I say?<br><br><br><br>
I tried to be a vegan for a while but found it too difficult.<br><br>
I'm weak?<br><br><br><br>
the trouble with extreme attitudes is they encourage people to take one side or the other- I bet there are millions who skipped vegetarianism and went straight for veganism only to fall of the wagon and go back to stuffing themselves the beefburgers and hotdogs.<br><br><br><br><br><br>
perhaps another post that will just piss you off. By the way, I think that most people eat cheese because it tastes good. Is that a taboo thing to say in the animal rights section?
 

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Oh, don't mind if I get pissed off. I never stay annoyed with anyone for long - it's not in my nature.<br><br><br><br>
It's not difficult to stop eating cheese if you think of the suffering inflicted on these poor innocent creatures.<br><br><br><br>
Would you eat human babies if they tasted good?<br><br><br><br>
Or cats? Or dogs?<br><br><br><br>
Do I miss cheese? You bet I do.<br><br><br><br>
Do I get tempted to eat it? You bet I do.<br><br><br><br>
But then I remember the suffering... and I want no part of that.<br><br><br><br>
Did you ever read The Pig Who Sang To The Moon? <a href="http://www.jeffreymasson.com/pig_release.html" target="_blank">http://www.jeffreymasson.com/pig_release.html</a>
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Blobbenstein</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I think that most people eat cheese because it tastes good.</div>
</div>
<br><br><br>
I think that's true of any food.<br><br><br><br>
At least, I have my suspicions that very few people would eat things because they tasted bad. Although that still doesn't explain Arby's.<br><br><br><br>
Seriously though, this is one of the things that drives me NUTSwhen people say they couldn't give up eggs/chicken/beef/fish/cheese/milk-chocolate because they like the taste.<br><br><br><br>
That's missing the point.<br><br><br><br>
And the point was just made very well by Diana. Is a moment on the lips worth a lifetime of suffering?<br><br><br><br>
I guess I'm lucky. As much as I was always the guy they made "would you like some pasta with your cheese" jokes about I don't miss it at all now that I don't eat it. Don't even crave it a bit. I find it a little gross actually now that I see it for the cow puss it is.<br><br><br><br>
But back on topic...eggs though. Seriously. Eggs have no real taste. Probably the easiest thing I gave up. No idea why anyone would let a chicken suffer just to eat something bland.<br><br><br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
TJ
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Diana</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br><br><br>
Would you eat human babies if they tasted good?<br><br><br></div>
</div>
<br><br><br>
Word of advice: I once replied to this comment:<br><br><br><br>
"Cows were raised to be eaten."<br><br><br><br>
With this here little allegorical bon mot:<br><br><br><br>
"So, would you eat a baby if I started a baby farm?"<br><br><br><br>
Didn't go over well with all present, some of whom had babies.<br><br><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/doh.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":doh:"><br><br><br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
TJ
 

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I read that some medications can cause women to start lactating, I don't see why a chemical like this couldn't have the same effect in cows. This would make things better. I know you will just start talking about cows with aching udders but that is another problem.<br><br><br><br>
similarly with chickens, sex selection may well be possible in the future and if a chicken is truly freerange and not locked up in a dark barn, then I don't see the problem.
 
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