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Why do you see fur as being worse than leather? Its all animal skin involving the same amount of cruelty.<br><br>
if you choose to wear animal products, you have to learn to explain yourself and where you are wrt your vegetarianism, or ignore it, don't let it bother you.<br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kai Reddtail</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3043646"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
If you got them before you went veg*n, I don't think you should have to toss them. They've already been bought so you may as well use them until they've outlived their usefulness, IMO.<br>
Are these people who are criticizing you veg*n themselves? If they aren't, they're the ones being hypocrites.</div>
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People who eat animals are not being hypocrites in these situations because they are not claiming to be anything other than what they are, they are just noticing the moral flaws in the logic of some vegetarians. I would say that they are being a bit annoying but not hypocritical.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>stasher</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3043803"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Why do you see fur as being worse than leather?</div>
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Who me?<br><br>
Few (any?) fur bearing animals are killed for owt other than their fur.<br><br>
Most (all?) animals from which leather comes would still be killed at exactly the same rate if no one bought leather at all.<br><br>
Leather is, pretty much, as much a mere waste product of the meat industry as is manure.<br><br>
M'personal understanding is that, whilst meat consumption remains as it, then a 100% boycott of leather = not one single animal saved.<br><br>
A 100% boycott of fur = quite a different kettle of biscuits altogether.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Clueless Git</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3045622"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Who me?<br><br>
Few (any?) fur bearing animals are killed for owt other than their fur.<br><br>
Most (all?) animals from which leather comes would still be killed at exactly the same rate if no one bought leather at all.<br><br>
Leather is, pretty much, as much a mere waste product of the meat industry as is manure.<br><br>
M'personal understanding is that, whilst meat consumption remains as it, then a 100% boycott of leather = not one single animal saved.<br><br>
A 100% boycott of fur = quite a different kettle of biscuits altogether.</div>
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Actually leather and meat are co-products. Slaughterhouses sell skins for more profits. Take away leather and meat prices have to go up to maintain profits. Prices go up, and people buy less. It would actually be great and probably save a lot of animals if there were no market for leather. Also, the exotic leather market kills significant animals just for their skins. Few people actually eat ostriches and reptiles.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Clueless Git</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3045622"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Most (all?) animals from which leather comes would still be killed at exactly the same rate if no one bought leather at all.<br>
Leather is, pretty much, as much a mere waste product of the meat industry as is manure.</div>
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That's not true.<br>
Please listen to this podcast: <a href="http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/VegetarianFoodForThought/~3/1q1DG_oplB4/leather.mp3" target="_blank">http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Veget...B4/leather.mp3</a>
 

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Elaine, I have basically the same view on this as Clueless Git. I'm aware that many animals (domestic deer for buckskin; beavers and muskrats; etc) ARE killed primarily for their skins, of course. I'm willing to consider other arguments bout leather but could not download that podcast.<br><br>
The meat industry makes some profit from selling the skins of the animals it kills, and this does help keep the cost of meat itself lower than it would be otherwise- but I have seen factually incorrect statements such as "leather is half the value of a cow's body", when actually it is half of the value of all non-meat byproducts sold from his/her body.<br><br>
Most people I know love the taste of meat- that's why they eat it, even when they'd probably be healthier eating at least less of it, if not quitting it completely. So many of my omni relatives and acquaintances have had cardiovascular issues- and many of them are younger than I am. I have to wonder whether an increase in cost of meat would be much of a disincentive to people.<br><br>
On the other hand, I was over at my sister's for Thanksgiving and noticed a copy of "Forks Over Knives" on their bookshelf. They're all unapologetically omni, and I was thinking "Huh?!"...
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Tom</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3046088"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Elaine, I have basically the same view on this as Clueless Git. I'm aware that many animals (domestic deer for buckskin; beavers and muskrats; etc) ARE killed primarily for their skins, of course. I'm willing to consider other arguments bout leather but could not download that podcast.<br><br>
The meat industry makes some profit from selling the skins of the animals it kills, and this does help keep the cost of meat itself lower than it would be otherwise- but I have seen factually incorrect statements such as "leather is half the value of a cow's body", when actually it is half of the value of all non-meat byproducts sold from his/her body.<br><br>
Most people I know love the taste of meat- that's why they eat it, even when they'd probably be healthier eating at least less of it, if not quitting it completely. So many of my omni relatives and acquaintances have had cardiovascular issues- and many of them are younger than I am. <b>I have to wonder whether an increase in cost of meat would be much of a disincentive to people.</b><br><br>
On the other hand, I was over at my sister's for Thanksgiving and noticed a copy of "Forks Over Knives" on their bookshelf. They're all unapologetically omni, and I was thinking "Huh?!"...</div>
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It didn't work with gasoline.
 

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Thank you, Elaine, for sharing that podcast. I'm still listening, but it's very informative. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>kazyeeqen</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3046099"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
It didn't work with gasoline.</div>
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Meat prices would go up somewhat if slaughterhouses had to pay to dispose of animal skins rather than sell it, but I don't see that the cost of meat would go up several times. Surely the increasing costs of feed and energy would have much more of an effect?
 

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Gas and meat is not a good comparison. It's easy to fuel your body with inexpensive non-meat products in response to an increase in meat prices, but not so much the case when it comes to fueling your car.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>cornsail</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3046127"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Gas and meat is not a good comparison. It's easy to fuel your body with inexpensive non-meat products in response to an increase in meat prices, but not so much the case when it comes to fueling your car.</div>
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You can try feeding your car Oreos. Or beefless jerky. Who knows, it might work.<br><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p">
 

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Here's a short <a href="http://www.idausa.org/facts/leatherfacts.html" target="_blank">article about leather</a> rather than a podcast.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>ElaineV</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3046035"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
That's not true.<br>
Please listen to this podcast: <a href="http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/VegetarianFoodForThought/~3/1q1DG_oplB4/leather.mp3" target="_blank">http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/VegetarianFoodForThought/~3/1q1DG_oplB4/leather.mp3</a></div>
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Kind of hating the podcast: Her basic argument lurches from one straw man to another, as she disputes points nobody is out there making and defends points nobody is out there disputing. And one thing in particular that she says is pretty hard to defend: that if it were not for leather, most people wouldn't be able to afford to eat beef. This in a country where most of us spend more of our paychecks dining out than eating in, and where food has never been as small a part of our overall household budgets as it is now. Beef is ninety percent of the dollar value of a steer's carcass, leather is about five percent. What part of that ratio does she not understand? Fluctuations in feed prices send bigger ripples than that through the beef market all the time, and consumers barely notice.<br><br>
The podcaster works very hard at attaching to leather every ethical objection a consumer might have to consuming factory-farmed meat. But she never makes a dent, not even a ding, in the position she's trying to demolish: that leather is a by-product of an 18-times-larger industry that would carry on with or without assistance from the leather trade. She can't get around the fact that although the demand for beef has quite a bit to do with the price of leather, the demand for leather has relatively little to do with the price of beef.<br><br>
It's insulting to hear that people who don't eat meat but do wear leather must be in <i>denial</i> of where leather comes from. People like this podcaster are in denial that it's possible to take in the same information they have without coming to the same beliefs or adopting the same behaviors.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>cornsail</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3046133"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I told it it can't have any oreos until it finishes its tofu turkey.</div>
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<br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/no.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":no:">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>cornsail</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3046127"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Gas and meat is not a good comparison. It's easy to fuel your body with inexpensive non-meat products in response to an increase in meat prices, but not so much the case when it comes to fueling your car.</div>
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I think the comparison is okay. One needs gas to fuel ones car, but doesn't necessarily need to drive the car. Some people do, but many many just drive as much as they do out of comfort, habit and convenience, and folks eat meat for the same reasons. Rising gas prices didn't stop convenience drivers from driving, and rising meat costs won't stop people from eating meat. Many people see no option, so they don't see that they can just buy a cheaper plant-based food.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Rising gas prices didn't stop convenience drivers from driving</div>
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It did alter vacation plans for many folks though. Stay closer to home rather than take a long trip by car.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Joan Kennedy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3046142"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Beef is ninety percent of the dollar value of a steer's carcass, leather is about five percent.</div>
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Can you (or someone) please reliably source the percentage of the profit of the carcass that goes to leather?
 

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<a href="http://www.actionforourplanet.com/#/animals/4536945432" target="_blank">This article</a> states that skin sales account for nearly half of slaughterhouse profits.<br><br>
"Leather is considered a by-product of the meat industry but in actuality it is a co-product and leather sales provide almost half of all slaughterhouse profits."
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Irizary</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3046288"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Can you (or someone) please reliably source the percentage of the profit of the carcass that goes to leather?</div>
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<br><a href="http://jas.fass.org/content/68/12/4200.full.pdf" target="_blank">http://jas.fass.org/content/68/12/4200.full.pdf</a><br><br>
A 1990 article from the Journal of Animal Sciences, called "Yields of by-products from different cattle types"<br><br>
It varies by cattle type but on average, the value of all edible and inedible byproducts from cattle is estimated at 9 to 12% of the total live value, with hides comprising just over half the total byproduct value. Hides comprised, on average, just over five percent of total live value.
 

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Those statistics are over 20 years old. And while skin sales may account for a small percentage of <i>live value</i>, they may contribute substantially more to overall profits. 5% of live value could certainly translate to 50% of profit, I would think, since it is, after all a byproduct which must be further processed by a tannery. I would also guess that leather would have a much higher markup than meat (as a final product). And, the article you referenced is based on cattle. Horses, sheep, pigs and exotic animals also contribute to the leather industry.
 
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