Do we really need Vitamin B-12 supplement ?

Sirene · Jan 10, 2007

Is there any way we can have a diet that has no need for B-12 supplement I mean I think we were not meant to eat meat but I also think we were not meant to need supplements so that's ironic to me... 
Thanks <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/blush.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="

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Elijah · Jan 10, 2007

Do we really need Vitamin B-12 supplement ? 
Yes, it would be kinda risky not to.

Sirene · Jan 10, 2007

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by Elijah <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a> Do we really need Vitamin B-12 supplement ? 
Yes, it would be kinda risky not to.</div>
</div>
 
If our bodys really need B-12 supplement than that would mean we were meant to have meat if we can't get it through a veggie diet, that's really ironic

Eclipse · Jan 10, 2007

I used to think like that, I didn't take vitamins at all because it wasn't nautral and we should get our vitamins from food. I studied nutrition at the time because I wanted that as my career and the sources convinced me not take any vitamins. 
B12 was the first one I was convinced to take. To me it has to do with the farming system and not avoiding meat. I have a feeling omnis DO benifit from B12 supplements, otherwise why is it fortified in products not designed for veg*ns?. 
I hear if you do a lot of growing your own food that takes care of your needs. 
When I was out doing the long trail, I came down with mouth sores. So what do I do?...I didn't bring any vitamin supplements( really bad idea because high nutrition needs and hike food don't mix.) to take care of it. So it's zapping my energy, so I started to think about real natural sources of B vitamins. I ended up gathered dandilion greens and it helped some, at least enough to help me get out.

GNU/Vegan · Jan 10, 2007

B-12 is not only in meat. There is also in bacterias in the ground of crops. And human in the nature eat sometimes (scracely) meat like many other monkeys. But does it really matter what human eat naturaly ? With B-12 complement we can have a healthy diet avoiding making animal suffer. It's the most important, isn't it ?

Sirene · Jan 10, 2007

Of course I will take some if it's essential I just really want to know because it seems like a contradiction to me... So there isn't really any way you can have a diet that does not need any form of supplement ?

MRSSHF · Jan 10, 2007

B12 should be found in the ground, so you should be able to get it from eating unwashed carrots, greens, potatoes, etc. 
Unfortunately, we have poisoned the earth, and it is no longer safe to eat unwashed food. 
Take a sublingual B12 supplement. It's much better to be less than completely natural than it is to be sick.

nigel · Jan 10, 2007

There are loads of threads on this subject. Doctors on this board recommend regular supplements for vegans. As someone above mentioned that are bacterial, vegan supplements you can take. Conventional advice from provegan sources also recommend supplements such as in: <a href="http://www.veganhealth.org/b12" target="_blank">http://www.veganhealth.org/b12</a> 
If you're going to screw around with B12 solutions alternative to the convention, it's your body, but I recommend you get your levels checked regularly, as damage from deficiency can be irreversible.

synergy · Jan 10, 2007

Like MRSSHF said, we did not have to supplement B-12 in the past. Meat isn't the source for b-12, bacteria found in the air and the soil is. The reason meat and other animal products have b-12 is because they eat unwashed grains, produce and even small amounts of dirt. 
The fact is, if you had your own organic garden with good soil that had not been depleted, you could probably get enough B-12 from eating fruits and veggies straight from the garden without washing them. If you can't do that, you shouldn't risk either eating unwashed fruits and veggies or not supplementing (or at least eating lots of fortified foods). 
I personally take a B-12 supplement a few times a week, I use Red Star vegetarian support formula nutritional yeast as much as I can (3+ times a week) and I drink fortified soymilk about 5 times a week. This way, I don't have to worry about having symptomless (until it's too late) neurological disorders <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="

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Sirene · Jan 10, 2007

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by synergy <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a> 
Like MRSSHF said, we did not have to supplement B-12 in the past. Meat isn't the source for b-12, bacteria found in the air and the soil is. The reason meat and other animal products have b-12 is because they eat unwashed grains, produce and even small amounts of dirt. 
The fact is, if you had your own organic garden with good soil that had not been depleted, you could probably get enough B-12 from eating fruits and veggies straight from the garden without washing them. If you can't do that, you shouldn't risk either eating unwashed fruits and veggies or not supplementing (or at least eating lots of fortified foods). 
I personally take a B-12 supplement a few times a week, I use Red Star vegetarian support formula nutritional yeast as much as I can (3+ times a week) and I drink fortified soymilk about 5 times a week. This way, I don't have to worry about having symptomless (until it's too late) neurological disorders <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="

"></div>
</div>
 
Makes more sense thanks guys <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/broccoli.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":bobo:">

synergy · Jan 10, 2007

Anytime <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="

">

nigel · Jan 10, 2007

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by synergy <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a> 
Like MRSSHF said, we did not have to supplement B-12 in the past. Meat isn't the source for b-12, bacteria found in the air and the soil is. The reason meat and other animal products have b-12 is because they eat unwashed grains, produce and even small amounts of dirt. 
The fact is, if you had your own organic garden with good soil that had not been depleted, you could probably get enough B-12 from eating fruits and veggies straight from the garden without washing them. If you can't do that, you shouldn't risk either eating unwashed fruits and veggies or not supplementing (or at least eating lots of fortified foods). 
I personally take a B-12 supplement a few times a week, I use Red Star vegetarian support formula nutritional yeast as much as I can (3+ times a week) and I drink fortified soymilk about 5 times a week. This way, I don't have to worry about having symptomless (until it's too late) neurological disorders <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="

"></div>
</div>
 
Meat is a source of B12 if you eat meat! There are higher concentrations of B12 in meat than in the source from which the animals get it, and just because it is present in certain sources doesn't mean you're getting the absorption you need. I don't quite get your statement "Like MRSSHF said, we did not have to supplement B-12 in the past," when there is no study of vegans and their B12 sources "in the past," to my knowledge (I am genuinely interested, if you can turn me onto a study). 
The "if" and "could probably" in "The fact is, if you had your own organic garden with good soil that had not been depleted, you could probably get enough B-12 from eating fruits and veggies straight from the garden without washing them," leaves plenty of room for failure, and is far from having been proven reliably. 
It remains that the only way to know if you're getting sufficient B12 is to get tested, and this is highly recommended for anyone not taking supplements, even if you do grow your own food, or eat clean dirt. I don't think you're recommending otherwise, I just wanted to stress its importance.

Zsky2 · Jan 10, 2007

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by MRSSHF <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a> 
B12 should be found in the ground, so you should be able to get it from eating unwashed carrots, greens, potatoes, etc. 
Unfortunately, we have poisoned the earth, and it is no longer safe to eat unwashed food. 
Take a sublingual B12 supplement. It's much better to be less than completely natural than it is to be sick.</div>
</div>
 
Exactly what I was about to say.

synergy · Jan 10, 2007

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by nigel <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a> 
Meat is a source of B12 if you eat meat! There are higher concentrations of B12 in meat than in the source from which the animals get it, and just because it is present in certain sources doesn't mean you're getting the absorption you need. I don't quite get your statement "Like MRSSHF said, we did not have to supplement B-12 in the past," when there is no study of vegans and their B12 sources "in the past," to my knowledge (I am genuinely interested, if you can turn me onto a study).</div>
</div>
 
I didn't mean to imply that meat wasn't a source of B-12, just that it's not the only source, and that animals are in fact, ingesting it. 
I also, unfortunately have not come across any scientific studies on the topic of vegan B12 intake 'in the past', although if I were looking, I would probably start with Jain communities in India to see if there were reports of symptoms that could indicate B12 deficiencies. It would be inconclusive, but it could give us some anecdotal evidence which is probably as good as we are going to get, save for the invention of time machines. 
I was paraphrasing from the info I had previously found in sources written by dieticians, such as Brenda Davis and Melina Vesanto. <div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block"> 
The "if" and "could probably" in "The fact is, if you had your own organic garden with good soil that had not been depleted, you could probably get enough B-12 from eating fruits and veggies straight from the garden without washing them," leaves plenty of room for failure, and is far from having been proven reliably.</div>
</div>
 
Exactly why I said probably <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="

"> <div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block"> 
It remains that the only way to know if you're getting sufficient B12 is to get tested, and this is highly recommended for anyone not taking supplements, even if you do grow your own food, or eat clean dirt. I don't think you're recommending otherwise, I just wanted to stress its importance.</div>
</div>
 
I completely agree <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":up:"> 
B12 deficiency is so scary, I don't think anyone should take the chance.

sushi8kat · Feb 25, 2007

I was vegan for four years.. I've been vegetarian for 3 now. I think I must've been much more consciencious when I was vegan (other than having an ED for 6 mo. at one point), because I never had a b12 deficiency.. I used to get my blood checked a lot (for other reasons, but I checked nonetheless). However, I just found out last week while I was in treatment that I had a significant b12 deficiency in my blood tests. The doctors was like, are your vegetarian, and I ws like, yeah, and he said, are you vegan? and I said, no, but I eat very little dairy/eggs; probably only a couple times a week. And he said that my deficiency could be related to my energy problems, depression, etc. Luckily he was a very nice doctor and didn't tell me to go eat a steak.. instead he pointed me out to the under the tongue supplement at my local Co Op. So far I haven't seen myself feeling any different being on the supplement, but then again, I was happy to know about the deficiency given all the horrors I've heard about the b12 deficiencies in the body. I related my deficiency to an overall lack of care of my body.. so if anything, I am glad I know about the deficiency, because it has caused me to take time to listen to my body's needs more.

froggythefrog · Feb 25, 2007

Veganism is a possible diet for us -- I am vegan, but it's not the natural diet for us. That's why we need the B12 supplement. "Natural" and "good" are not synonymous as people make them out to be.

manics_fan · Feb 25, 2007

Does anybody know exacly how much B12 we're suppsoed to have in a day? 
The soya milk I have says it has added B12, but since I only have it about once a day on my cereal in the morning I was wondering if that would be enough?

wildtigercubs · Feb 25, 2007

I was wondering the same. I went and bought a B12 (sublingual) supplement and it makes me sick <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/sad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="

"> So now I have no idea where to get my B12 from. I have some fortified nut. yeast but our (aussie) rice milks aren't B12 fortified and I'm soy allergic so can't have those either (and no, I don't garden so can't eat my own veges). Anyone have any idea's for me?

Fromper · Feb 25, 2007

Not sure of exact amounts, but Silk brand soy milk says it contains 50% of the recommended daily allowance per 8 oz serving, and I always drink at least 2-3 servings that size per day, so I figure I'm good. 
--Fromper <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/juggle.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":juggle:">

IamJen · Feb 25, 2007

wildtigercubs..have you tried another brand perhaps? I've never heard of anyone getting sick from B12 supplements. You could try some supplemented food, as mentioned, though as well. 
wrt "natural" and "good". I agree that they are not always one and the same, but...in past generations (ages ago), humans ate a lot more dirt, etc. on their food that do we clean freaks today. So, it's not necessarily that we weren't meant to eat vegan, but that we were meant to get bacteria in a different way. 
(no, I'm not suggesting that we need to eat dirt)

Do we really need Vitamin B-12 supplement ?

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