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Discussion Starter #1
mary:<br><br><br><br>
first, my point wasn't to discuss whether or not individuals should have pelvic exams or whether or not modern medicine requires what level of faith. my point was to *discuss* not argue ideas about certain areas of the body, certain cultural ideas about the body and modern medical practices, and the language that we adopt.<br><br><br><br>
second, i agree that something can *feel* one way, but due to our own misperceptions or false notions, be something else entirely. which, is part of the question that i asked to begin with.<br><br><br><br>
third, you can think what i'm saying is dangerous or whatever you'd like, but i think that putting too much faith in modern medicine can be foolhearty. I feel that we (modern culture) often jump to the medical route *first* rather than really considering what the issue is and using a reasonable amount of time to allow alternative options to work, and when they don't, *then* use western medical techniques.<br><br><br><br>
western medicine is very valuable and important. I support it when it is used appropriately. i feel that currently, it is misused and overused causing all sorts of personal, social, cultural and economic problems that wouldn't exist if people would be more mindful of their use of western medicine.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
gaya,<br><br><br><br>
i think it is entirely appropriate to seek medical help when you feel it is necessary. i likely would have consented to the pelvic when the doctor first recommended it, since i was already making the choice to go to the doctor for his/her help.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>gaya</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
yearly or bi-yearly pelvics are recommended for a reason and I don't think it's completely based on "controlling womens bodies".</div>
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what do you think those reasons are? surely, not just because of an odd 'freak occurance' that happens in a single woman. it doesn' tmake sense to encourage every woman to take a test every 6 mo to 1 yr because of 'freak occurances.'<br><br><br><br>
and, what if the tests themselves cause damage that can lead to these problems?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>zoebird</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
gaya,<br><br><br><br>
i think it is entirely appropriate to seek medical help when you feel it is necessary. i likely would have consented to the pelvic when the doctor first recommended it, since i was already making the choice to go to the doctor for his/her help.</div>
</div>
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I really didn't think it had anything to with my uterus. It felt like I had to go to the bathroom but...I've never really had digestive issues/constipation so I just assumed it was that. Tho, now every time I experience constipation...fear lol.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">what do you think those reasons are? surely, not just because of an odd 'freak occurance' that happens in a single woman. it doesn' tmake sense to encourage every woman to take a test every 6 mo to 1 yr because of 'freak occurances.'</div>
</div>
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I'm not saying that it's rare and I'm not saying 6 mo-1 year. I said yearly or bi-yearly. I've known a few women who have had ovarian cysts etc. There are all kinds of potential issues. One of my girl friends had one burst at disney world. She had no idea that she even had one and like me, didn't go to the doc regulary. She was my roomy. We were both veg*ns, healthy young women (in our 20's). Sh*t happens all the time so I don't see the problem with taking precautions. Also, neither of us had health insurance. My surgery cost 14,000 and fortunately the hospital had the financial resources to deal with it. I felt badly tho because I know that money could have been used for someone in more need...especially since the possiblity existed that I could have prevented it. Same with my roomy. Either way, I don't know the stats for cysts etc so who knows.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">and, what if the tests themselves cause damage that can lead to these problems?</div>
</div>
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I don't know about that. I've never had a pelvic that was "rough". I'm sure there's a greater chance of a penis causing damage.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>gaya</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I don't know about that. I've never had a pelvic that was "rough". I'm sure there's a greater chance of a penis causing damage.</div>
</div>
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I can't imagine what damage will come from a pelvic either. I guess this could be countered with the damage that could be done by neglecting to get proper preventative care. There are lots of "maybes" in this situation. I think everyone should make the choice they're comfortable with, I just don't think it's a good idea to try to convince someone that preventative care isn't needed. Especially a 16 year old who was spooked at her last exam.<br><br>
Mary
 

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Discussion Starter #5
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>gaya</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
There are all kinds of potential issues. (snip) Sh*t happens all the time so I don't see the problem with taking precautions.</div>
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"**** happens" is a fear-based process though. i do not think we should do things out of fear. instead, i think that we should do things out of mindfulness--and this is the foundation of preventative medicine.<br><br><br><br>
charting one's cycle and observing the body is a form of prevenative medicine and is self-care, which is very important. It focuses on one's own body experience and body knowledge to determine the appropriate course of action. This course of action may include medical processes--such as pelvic exams and related testing--or it may not. That is, these things may not be necessary.<br><br><br><br>
often things like ovarian cysts and various other problems will show up in the cycle signs long before they show up on tests. Since charting can demonstrate or show signs of problems long before they are detectable by other means, wouldn't this 'count' as preventative and be less invasive than yearly or biyearly pelvic exams?<br><br><br><br>
to give my personal example, i had galactorrhea when i was 19 and lost my period. Drs decided that because they couldn't find any origin in my thyroid (numbers were 'normal'), it must be my pituitary. after multiple MRIs, there was no evidence of a growth on the pituitary that would cause this condition. Nevertheless, i was treated for this condition. after a year on meds that were problematic (caused dizziness, etc), i did my own research and discovered that it was a thyroid problem.<br><br><br><br>
today, i maintain a healthy thyroid by watching my thermo-signs in my charting and doing appropriate dietary and physical exercises (as well as a few small lifestyle things). I have no symptoms and essentially 'healed myself' through diet, exercise, and small lifestyle changes (cold rinse after showers).<br><br><br><br>
in this case, the medical route was inappropriate and a lot of time and money was 'wasted' and i may have lasting problems related to the medication (though it doesn't look that way at this point; i am consistantly ovulating).<br><br><br><br>
similarly, this process of self-care and observation, contemplation, exploration and intuition, allows a woman to notice things early, consider potential causes, try different alternative solutions, and when these do not work within a reasonable (self-determined) amount of time, going to a medical professional is the next step.<br><br><br><br>
I did this with my cholesterol issue. I couldn't, after a great deal of contemplation and observation 'figure out' my problem, so i went to my family doctor to get blood work done (covered by insurance). Although he said that everything was normal, i noted that cholesterol was low and that thyroid function was also low--which i knew from the charts. He said both were normal, but i knew from my own research that these numbers don't always fit into 'averages' anyway. I went to another DR--recommended by a friend--who focuses on alternative medicine (but is an MD). From there, i went to a naturopathic DR who actually listened to me and helped me formulate an action plan and gave me reasonable time to work on different processes to help boost my cholesterol. When i finally had the choice between medicine or eating animal products, i chose animal products. All of this was with the support, guidance, and continually blood testing with the doctor.<br><br><br><br>
in this instance, the test was needed so that i could have another way of gathering information that i couldn't get through other means of observation.<br><br><br><br>
In this way, i feel that pelvic exams can be helpful. If my charts are showing certain things, and i try all of the alternatives that i feel safe/comfortable with and they don't work within a reasonable amount of time, then i'd have no problem going in for a pelvic exam to get more information about what may be going on as well as support to discern and discover what medical and non-medical approaches exist for treating whatever problem might arise.<br><br><br><br>
But i do not know if regular testing is necessary as preventative medicine. And, in some countries, regular testing for low-risk clients is every 3-5 years, not every 1-2. LIke vaccination charts, different countries have different suggestions for 'basic health' and when to participate in testing.<br><br><br><br>
wouldn't this indicate, then, that there's something arbitrary in the 6 mo-1 yr-2 yr scenario?<br><br><br><br>
And is there truly something socially threatening about a woman or man taking charge of his own health and utilizing medicine as a tool for this (in a sense, hiring the doctor to help out, the same as one might hire a maid to help out with cleaning or a baby sitter with child care) rather than going to medicine out of fear and related?<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">I don't know about that. I've never had a pelvic that was "rough". I'm sure there's a greater chance of a penis causing damage.</div>
</div>
<br><br><br>
generally speaking, penises, hands, and sex toys do not scrape the cervix like the pap smear or biopsy. these can cause cervical damage.<br><br><br><br>
though, it is true that some sex play is more rough than most aspects of pelvic examinations--and could cause a great deal of trauma to the area.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>zoebird</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
"**** happens" is a fear-based process though.</div>
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I think that depends on the person. Maybe it's a subtle fear that I'm not conscious of...or I suppose it comes down to a fear of death in the grand scheme of things.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">i do not think we should do things out of fear. instead, i think that we should do things out of mindfulness--and this is the foundation of preventative medicine.</div>
</div>
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Agreed but I view getting regular paps and pelvics (regular for me is every two years) as a form of preventative medicine.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">charting one's cycle and observing the body is a form of prevenative medicine and is self-care, which is very important. It focuses on one's own body experience and body knowledge to determine the appropriate course of action. This course of action may include medical processes--such as pelvic exams and related testing--or it may not. That is, these things may not be necessary.</div>
</div>
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Yes, as I stated above.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">often things like ovarian cysts and various other problems will show up in the cycle signs long before they show up on tests. Since charting can demonstrate or show signs of problems long before they are detectable by other means, wouldn't this 'count' as preventative and be less invasive than yearly or biyearly pelvic exams?</div>
</div>
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First off, I don't think I used the word biyearly correctly. I don't mean twice a year (sorry for that). I meant every two years.<br><br><br><br>
Women have ovarian cysts, it's a natural aspect of our cycle. I don't know if the presence of cysts gone awry (when a sac fails to break open to release the egg) would affect our cycle. Do you know?<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">to give my personal example, i had galactorrhea when i was 19 and lost my period. Drs decided that because they couldn't find any origin in my thyroid (numbers were 'normal'), it must be my pituitary. after multiple MRIs, there was no evidence of a growth on the pituitary that would cause this condition. Nevertheless, i was treated for this condition. after a year on meds that were problematic (caused dizziness, etc), i did my own research and discovered that it was a thyroid problem.</div>
</div>
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And that's how I believe it should go for everyone. My family for example takes no responsibility for their own care. I tell them all the time that they should do their own research etc. When something goes wrong they get mad at their doctors. It's rediculous. Imo, medical science should only be an aid in your own self care.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">today, i maintain a healthy thyroid by watching my thermo-signs in my charting and doing appropriate dietary and physical exercises (as well as a few small lifestyle things). I have no symptoms and essentially 'healed myself' through diet, exercise, and small lifestyle changes (cold rinse after showers).</div>
</div>
<br>
that's good to hear.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">in this case, the medical route was inappropriate and a lot of time and money was 'wasted' and i may have lasting problems related to the medication (though it doesn't look that way at this point; i am consistantly ovulating).</div>
</div>
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See, I don't understand why people are of the mind that personal responsibility is relinquished when they go and see a doctor.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">similarly, this process of self-care and observation, contemplation, exploration and intuition, allows a woman to notice things early, consider potential causes, try different alternative solutions, and when these do not work within a reasonable (self-determined) amount of time, going to a medical professional is the next step.</div>
</div>
<br>
Agreed.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">I did this with my cholesterol issue. I couldn't, after a great deal of contemplation and observation 'figure out' my problem, so i went to my family doctor to get blood work done (covered by insurance). Although he said that everything was normal, i noted that cholesterol was low and that thyroid function was also low--which i knew from the charts. He said both were normal, but i knew from my own research that these numbers don't always fit into 'averages' anyway. I went to another DR--recommended by a friend--who focuses on alternative medicine (but is an MD). From there, i went to a naturopathic DR who actually listened to me and helped me formulate an action plan and gave me reasonable time to work on different processes to help boost my cholesterol. When i finally had the choice between medicine or eating animal products, i chose animal products. All of this was with the support, guidance, and continually blood testing with the doctor.</div>
</div>
<br>
Very reasonable.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">in this instance, the test was needed so that i could have another way of gathering information that i couldn't get through other means of observation.<br><br><br><br>
In this way, i feel that pelvic exams can be helpful. If my charts are showing certain things, and i try all of the alternatives that i feel safe/comfortable with and they don't work within a reasonable amount of time, then i'd have no problem going in for a pelvic exam to get more information about what may be going on as well as support to discern and discover what medical and non-medical approaches exist for treating whatever problem might arise.<br><br><br><br>
But i do not know if regular testing is necessary as preventative medicine. And, in some countries, regular testing for low-risk clients is every 3-5 years, not every 1-2. LIke vaccination charts, different countries have different suggestions for 'basic health' and when to participate in testing.<br><br><br><br>
wouldn't this indicate, then, that there's something arbitrary in the 6 mo-1 yr-2 yr scenario?</div>
</div>
<br>
I recommend pelvics and paps periodically because a lot of issues that can surface with a female are undetectable via observation. I like to get a pap every few years to check for abnormal cell growth. I dont think I would be able to be physically aware of abnormal cell growth at an early stage. A tumor yes but at that point it would be too late to avoid invasive procedures. Some cancerous cells only divide once a year, others are far more rapid. So yes, I guess the number is arbitrary<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">And is there truly something socially threatening about a woman or man taking charge of his own health and utilizing medicine as a tool for this (in a sense, hiring the doctor to help out, the same as one might hire a maid to help out with cleaning or a baby sitter with child care) rather than going to medicine out of fear and related?</div>
</div>
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No, and I don't understand why you think it would be. I don't understand why any one would choose not to take charge of their own health. I do my own blook work at my leisure. I certainly don't need a doctor or any one to over see my general health. When my lipid profile came out whacked and my glucose levels were higher than they should have been a few people recommended that I go see a doc to get my blood work done...again. That didn't make any sense. There was no reason to. I know what to do and I'm not an idiot. I'm not going to run to a physician to pick up a script for lipator and potentially damage my liver. I simply stopped eating sugar (cut out all bread, pasta etc) and bought a bike. Simple enough. I will run a panel in a few months to see where I'm at. No big deal.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">generally speaking, penises, hands, and sex toys do not scrape the cervix like the pap smear or biopsy. these can cause cervical damage.</div>
</div>
<br>
Agreed that paps and biopsies have the potential to do damage, which is why it's so important to choose a person that will be gentle. Biopsies are certainly a last resort.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">though, it is true that some sex play is more rough than most aspects of pelvic examinations--and could cause a great deal of trauma to the area.</div>
</div>
<br>
As a woman with a very small uterous, I've always had to be careful.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>gaya</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I think that depends on the person. Maybe it's a subtle fear that I'm not conscious of...or I suppose it comes down to a fear of death in the grand scheme of things.</div>
</div>
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fear can be helpful or harmful. i find that some people react to the very concept of self care as a dangerous extreme. i think that this is due to social conditioning (that over values western medicine) and fear.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Agreed but I view getting regular paps and pelvics (regular for me is every two years) as a form of preventative medicine.</div>
</div>
<br><br><br>
i think that this is can definately be an aspect of self care or preventative medicine. if it's freely chosen as a tool of observation, it makes sense to do it.<br><br><br><br>
i think the issue comes in when it's not freely chosen, but rather culturally assumed that it's the only and most appropriate method of being responsible for one's gynocological health. This is giving up one's power to another, outside authority, rather than utilizing the skills of another to assist one's own self knowledge and discovery.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">First off, I don't think I used the word biyearly correctly. I don't mean twice a year (sorry for that). I meant every two years.</div>
</div>
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i realized that, and i even went and looked it up myself. LOL i wanted to make sure that i was using the word properly etc. But, it won't surprise you, i'm sure, that some women are encouraged to paps every 6 months, even if they are low risk and had no abnormal paps. weird, huh?<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Women have ovarian cysts, it's a natural aspect of our cycle. I don't know if the presence of cysts gone awry (when a sac fails to break open to release the egg) would affect our cycle. Do you know?</div>
</div>
<br><br><br>
yes, i do know. there are a number of signs that could indicate ovarian cysts. many of them are outlined in the two books on Fertility Charting that i've mentioned before.<br><br><br><br>
and from this, one can choose to utilize alternative methods to treat it or one can go to get a pelvic to make certain and follow a western medical route.<br><br><br><br>
usually, this is the best form of 'early detection'--because these kinds of observations don't come on schedules.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">I recommend pelvics and paps periodically because a lot of issues that can surface with a female are undetectable via observation. I like to get a pap every few years to check for abnormal cell growth. I dont think I would be able to be physically aware of abnormal cell growth at an early stage. A tumor yes but at that point it would be too late to avoid invasive procedures. Some cancerous cells only divide once a year, others are far more rapid.</div>
</div>
<br><br><br>
like cysts, 'abnormal' cervical cells are also 'normal.' the cervix goes through a number of distinct changes throughout a fertility cycle, including drastic cell change. these 'abnormal cells' typically 'right' themselves within a couple of days (or more common, simply die off).<br><br><br><br>
but this is also why it is recommended to schedule paps at certain times of the fertility cycle. the problem is that women do not know how to chart or do not chart, so they don't necessarily get examined at the right time. And then, they get false positives and negatives--pap smears are notorious for being false more often than they are not. (i had some stats somewhere; i'll look them up).<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Imo, medical science should only be an aid in your own self care.</div>
</div>
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i agree.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">See, I don't understand why people are of the mind that personal responsibility is relinquished when they go and see a doctor.</div>
</div>
<br><br><br>
but, would you state that it is, culturally speaking?<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">No, and I don't understand why you think it would be. I don't understand why any one would choose not to take charge of their own health.</div>
</div>
<br><br><br>
a lot of people choose not to take care of their own health. in fact, i would say that the majority of the people participating in our culture do not want to take charge of their own health. They're over reliant on doctors and experts, rather than their own innate wisdom, intuition, and intellect.<br><br><br><br>
wouldn't you agree that this is the case?<br><br><br><br>
and if it is, do you think that it requires social change, such as bringing up the radical idea that if we do self-care first, and then approach doctors second, we may get better results from our use of medical care and 'cure' the social ills such as health-care inequality and related that plagues our country?<br><br><br><br>
in a sense, i'm just begging questions.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">So yes, I guess the number is arbitrary.</div>
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arbitrary and often up to cultural and personal 'comfort' levels. I have no issue with a woman deciding that this or that is appropriate for her. But i do have a problem with pushing the medicalization and hysteria regarding the female system when it goes through it's natural process.<br><br><br><br>
And, of course, the shame attached to it.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Agreed that paps and biopsies have the potential to do damage, which is why it's so important to choose a person that will be gentle. Biopsies are certainly a last resort.</div>
</div>
<br><br><br>
even the most gentle pap or biopsy causes cervical damage, which can lead to unusual abnormal cells--which may lead to cervical problems. paps could be causing that which they are trying to be used to prevent.<br><br><br><br>
so again, i point out that perhaps it is important to express that people can do many things in 'self care' and then--if they are low risk to begin with like myself--they can get paps when they feel it is necessary, rather than on the american, socially prescribed schedule. As i mentioned before, in some developed countries, women get them every 3, 4, 5 or even 6 years apart if they are 'low risk.'<br><br><br><br>
Both of mine were normal--i had them three years apart. When i learned about the risks of paps, how to care for myself, and other schedules that doctors in other countries think is appropriate for preventative care (being 3-6 years between tests), I opted to forgo getting on 'on schedule' like i'm 'supposed' to. Instead, i decided to wait 6 years--unless something came up that would indicate otherwise. Of coruse, i've only been charting for a little while, but nevertheless, other aspects of self care that i learned before are still being used. this only adds to my observations.<br><br><br><br>
i'm now at the 5 yr mark and have no problems that haven't righted themselves. I have a midwife with whom i speak about a number of issues--not just reproductive but about charting, fertility, becoming a mother, pregnancy and birth processes, etc etc etc. She supports FAM, UP (unassisted pregnancy--no tests) and UC (unassisted childbirth); and she supports women getting fewer paps rather than more--by focusing on self care. I may or may not have a pelvic exam next year--we will see how i feel about the whole process. If i'm not around this midwife, and if i don't find one like her, i may not. i may wait until i find someone with whom i connect like this midwife.<br><br><br><br>
---<br><br><br><br>
and i think i wsa trying to ask bigger questions initially. so, on further thought, i came up with this:<br><br><br><br>
is there something in our culture that teaches women to feel an excessive amount of shame about their genitalia such that pelvic exams feel violating?<br><br><br><br>
or, is there something about pelvic exams that are problematic that may lead to women feeling violated during the exam?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>zoebird</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
fear can be helpful or harmful. i find that some people react to the very concept of self care as a dangerous extreme. i think that this is due to social conditioning (that over values western medicine) and fear.</div>
</div>
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I don't know Zoe. I see extremism going both ways. Yes, our culture relies heavily on western medicine (tho it should be noted that upwards of 60% of the US population uses or has used alternative care in one form or another). At the same time, just on this forum alone, I run across so much misinformation when it comes to health and nutrition. It blows me away. A person will read this or that article, this or that book, with out thinking of sourcing the authors or even knowing how to and take the information they've gathered and consider it gospel. I really don't see that any different as considering western medicine as gospel. The problem isn't with alternative medicine or western medicine imo but with people. Many simply want a quick fix with very little effort on their part.<br><br><br><br>
And maybe there is social conditioning that promotes the over valuing of western medicine but I can't ignore the blatent resistance of "real learning" I come across so often. This reminds me of the pm conversation we had last week.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">i think that this is can definately be an aspect of self care or preventative medicine. if it's freely chosen as a tool of observation, it makes sense to do it.<br><br><br><br>
i think the issue comes in when it's not freely chosen, but rather culturally assumed that it's the only and most appropriate method of being responsible for one's gynocological health. This is giving up one's power to another, outside authority, rather than utilizing the skills of another to assist one's own self knowledge and discovery.</div>
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I don't believe most will ever be as observant of their bodies as you are. Is this the fault of the culture surrounding western medicine or has the culture of western medicine only responded to the issue? I don't know. Seems like a chicken and egg question.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">i realized that, and i even went and looked it up myself. LOL i wanted to make sure that i was using the word properly etc. But, it won't surprise you, i'm sure, that some women are encouraged to paps every 6 months, even if they are low risk and had no abnormal paps. weird, huh?</div>
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I agree that paps every six months is probably nutty providing the woman doesn't have health issues etc.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">yes, i do know. there are a number of signs that could indicate ovarian cysts. many of them are outlined in the two books on Fertility Charting that i've mentioned before.<br><br><br><br>
and from this, one can choose to utilize alternative methods to treat it or one can go to get a pelvic to make certain and follow a western medical route.</div>
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Since we develop all kinds of cysts, which types does this book address, at what stages, and what are the symptoms if you don't mind me asking. I'll definately look into it on my own as well.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">like cysts, 'abnormal' cervical cells are also 'normal.' the cervix goes through a number of distinct changes throughout a fertility cycle, including drastic cell change. these 'abnormal cells' typically 'right' themselves within a couple of days (or more common, simply die off).<br><br><br><br>
but this is also why it is recommended to schedule paps at certain times of the fertility cycle. the problem is that women do not know how to chart or do not chart, so they don't necessarily get examined at the right time. And then, they get false positives and negatives--pap smears are notorious for being false more often than they are not. (i had some stats somewhere; i'll look them up).</div>
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Ok<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">but, would you state that it is, culturally speaking?</div>
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Again, I think people have issues with personal responsibilty full spectrum. I don't think it's limited to/begins or ends with personal health care.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">a lot of people choose not to take care of their own health. in fact, i would say that the majority of the people participating in our culture do not want to take charge of their own health. They're over reliant on doctors and experts, rather than their own innate wisdom, intuition, and intellect.</div>
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Agreed but at the same time many people are just plain old dumb as$ess lol. That's terrible to say. I know I've brought this up before but...my dad and his belief in "diet for your blood type". It gives him permission to eat horribly. It doesn't matter what I tell him and I'm certainly qualified to tell him it's a load of hooey. From my position, given my education, it's very difficult not to think poorly of his opinion regarding nutrition.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">wouldn't you agree that this is the case?</div>
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Obviously<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">and if it is, do you think that it requires social change, such as bringing up the radical idea that if we do self-care first, and then approach doctors second, we may get better results from our use of medical care and 'cure' the social ills such as health-care inequality and related that plagues our country?</div>
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Absolutely<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">in a sense, i'm just begging questions.</div>
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That's ok. We are pretty much in agreement on most of these issues.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">arbitrary and often up to cultural and personal 'comfort' levels. I have no issue with a woman deciding that this or that is appropriate for her. But i do have a problem with pushing the medicalization and hysteria regarding the female system when it goes through it's natural process.</div>
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I guess i'm just not exposed to the same experiences as you are. I'm really in my own little world here. I don't see recommendations of yearly or every two year pelvics or paps as hysteria. hmmm, and I consider myself to be a feminist. Very little means more to me than the treatment of women in general.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">And, of course, the shame attached to it.</div>
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given some of the posts in the breast feeding thread, i see what you mean. To be honest, before the net I was pretty clueless about how crazy our culture is. I just don't come across it in RL.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">even the most gentle pap or biopsy causes cervical damage, which can lead to unusual abnormal cells--which may lead to cervical problems. paps could be causing that which they are trying to be used to prevent.</div>
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that's definately food for thought.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">so again, i point out that perhaps it is important to express that people can do many things in 'self care' and then--if they are low risk to begin with like myself--they can get paps when they feel it is necessary, rather than on the american, socially prescribed schedule. As i mentioned before, in some developed countries, women get them every 3, 4, 5 or even 6 years apart if they are 'low risk.'<br><br><br><br>
Both of mine were normal--i had them three years apart. When i learned about the risks of paps, how to care for myself, and other schedules that doctors in other countries think is appropriate for preventative care (being 3-6 years between tests), I opted to forgo getting on 'on schedule' like i'm 'supposed' to. Instead, i decided to wait 6 years--unless something came up that would indicate otherwise. Of coruse, i've only been charting for a little while, but nevertheless, other aspects of self care that i learned before are still being used. this only adds to my observations.<br><br><br><br>
i'm now at the 5 yr mark and have no problems that haven't righted themselves. I have a midwife with whom i speak about a number of issues--not just reproductive but about charting, fertility, becoming a mother, pregnancy and birth processes, etc etc etc. She supports FAM, UP (unassisted pregnancy--no tests) and UC (unassisted childbirth); and she supports women getting fewer paps rather than more--by focusing on self care. I may or may not have a pelvic exam next year--we will see how i feel about the whole process. If i'm not around this midwife, and if i don't find one like her, i may not. i may wait until i find someone with whom i connect like this midwife.</div>
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good for you zoe!<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">and i think i wsa trying to ask bigger questions initially. so, on further thought, i came up with this:<br><br><br><br>
is there something in our culture that teaches women to feel an excessive amount of shame about their genitalia such that pelvic exams feel violating?<br><br><br><br>
or, is there something about pelvic exams that are problematic that may lead to women feeling violated during the exam?</div>
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That's a complex question and obviously there is no single answer and I certainly don't have any answers. Our society is so neurotic and sexist for one. Also, the idea of having some one enter our bodies is very personal. I don't find it odd that women are uncomfortable with it. Either way, it would be interesting to read your theories.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>gaya</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
At the same time, just on this forum alone, I run across so much misinformation when it comes to health and nutrition. It blows me away. A person will read this or that article, this or that book, with out thinking of sourcing the authors or even knowing how to and take the information they've gathered and consider it gospel. I really don't see that any different as considering western medicine as gospel.</div>
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i agree. we discussed functional literacy before--reading carefully and reading comprehension as well.<br><br><br><br>
do you think that this could be part of the social forces at work to keep people unable to educate and care for themselves and therefore reliant on outside 'experts' while they are simultaneously distrustful of those experts?<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">The problem isn't with alternative medicine or western medicine imo but with people. Many simply want a quick fix with very little effort on their part.</div>
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but i do not believe that people innately want this or that this is right-action from the deep spirit-self. but rather, we are somehow taught this, or that it's something 'assumed.' people are learning to behave in certain ways--why, how, and is it possible to undo it on the large cultural scale?<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">I don't believe most will ever be as observant of their bodies as you are. Is this the fault of the culture surrounding western medicine or has the culture of western medicine only responded to the issue? I don't know. Seems like a chicken and egg question.</div>
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or even more so, not even a question related to medicine. Why are people taught to not be observant of their bodies, their behavioral patterns, their thought patterns, and in a sense compare that to "reality?" what is going on that prevents or distracts people from self-care on a variety of levels?<br><br><br><br>
and, i think that western medicine, in it's origins, wasn't really responding to either of these social aspects, but rather discovered the tool of 'scientific method' and began to use this method to study certian aspects of disease and other ills, and seeks to overcome, cure, or whatever them. alternative medicine uses different methodologies or perspectives, but has the same goal.<br><br><br><br>
and both need to be considered with a great deal of mindfulness.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Since we develop all kinds of cysts, which types does this book address, at what stages, and what are the symptoms if you don't mind me asking. I'll definately look into it on my own as well.</div>
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well, both books cover different aspects and in different depths. PCOS is definately covered, along with other kinds of cysts. It's not exhaustive, but it does give a good overview and a resource list for more information (including source materials as endnotes or footnotes).<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Again, I think people have issues with personal responsibilty full spectrum. I don't think it's limited to/begins or ends with personal health care.</div>
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certainly not. but this is one of those areas where it does show up pretty radically. it's easier to observe it and then discuss the potential social and cultural origins of these behavoir patterns than it is in other realms.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Agreed but at the same time many people are just plain old dumb as$ess lol.</div>
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'willfully ignorant' is the term i prefer. it's not that they lack intellgence or ability, but somewhere along the line the concept of "don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up" came into being for them. Why?<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">I guess i'm just not exposed to the same experiences as you are. I'm really in my own little world here. I don't see recommendations of yearly or every two year pelvics or paps as hysteria. hmmm, and I consider myself to be a feminist. Very little means more to me than the treatment of women in general.</div>
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when people say that one 'must' have exams, and gives the recs of one or two years, and then another person comes in and says "well, not necessarily and here's how/why"--and then others respond with terms like "that's dangerous" and "these things are important!" it seems to smack of a certain 'hysteria' about the idea.<br><br><br><br>
essentially, as with everything, i'm simply providing alternatives without asking people to participate. for me to bring up not using commercial formula, but making one's own; for me to bring up unassisted pregnancy and childbirth; for me to bring up vegetarianism in certain circles; for me to bring up various ecological stances in others--each of these produces a certain measure of resistance. And with this, a great deal of fear-mongering and judgement.<br><br><br><br>
to me, language like "things happen to women; exams prevent this stuff from getting 'out of hand!'" is fear-based language. it indicates a certain level of 'hysteria' about the female body and it's inherent inadequacy and need for close outside observation. I get the same reaction from unassisted pregnancy and unassisted birth.<br><br><br><br>
there is an intense fear in a woman doing self-care--from other women, from the medical establishment, from the culture at large. I get it quite frequently online, IRL.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">That's a complex question and obviously there is no single answer and I certainly don't have any answers. Our society is so neurotic and sexist for one. Also, the idea of having some one enter our bodies is very personal. I don't find it odd that women are uncomfortable with it. Either way, it would be interesting to read your theories.</div>
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well, i think there are a lot of factors going on and that both questions can be argued adequately. I think that there is an problem of overshaming and i think there is a problem with the current mindset regarding pelvic exams and their 'necessity' as well as how they're done, when, and why. so, i think it's both.<br><br><br><br>
but i don't have any answers. i just wanted to have a discussion.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>zoebird</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
do you think that this could be part of the social forces at work to keep people unable to educate and care for themselves and therefore reliant on outside 'experts' while they are simultaneously distrustful of those experts?</div>
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Sure, that makes sense and this type of situation is a catch 22 which makes it so difficult to address. It is a vulnerable position. Many do not understand science, fear it even and that brings about resentment, distrust etc. The only option a person has imo is to explore and study with commited effort. In the end, I believe it will have to be a matter of self determination. And contrary to what I imagine to be popular belief, exploration of alternative options is just as trying if not more so.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">but i do not believe that people innately want this or that this is right-action from the deep spirit-self. but rather, we are somehow taught this, or that it's something 'assumed.' people are learning to behave in certain ways--why, how, and is it possible to undo it on the large cultural scale?</div>
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I'm such a pessimist and considering such large scales is overwhelming. I really don't believe such a cultural ratification is possible but I pray to the Gods that I'm wrong. When I was younger tho I thought our generation and future generations would some how socially evolve.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">or even more so, not even a question related to medicine. Why are people taught to not be observant of their bodies, their behavioral patterns, their thought patterns, and in a sense compare that to "reality?" what is going on that prevents or distracts people from self-care on a variety of levels?</div>
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hmmm, why are humans not mindful in general? Why are so many (myself included) so easily distracted or interested in being distracted? I don't know.<br><br><br><br>
Do you think it might have something to do with the process of aging? The first ideas that come to mind are childrens stories/mythology...about growing old and losing the kid within. When I was a teen and in my early 20's I was awake and I was very concerned that I would drift as I got older. I sensed that this was an aspect of aging, that losing my youthful malleability some how forfeited a certain aspect of awareness. I also think that as we age in our culture, our responsibility load increases to the point of chaos and is with out a doubt very distracting.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">and, i think that western medicine, in it's origins, wasn't really responding to either of these social aspects, but rather discovered the tool of 'scientific method' and began to use this method to study certian aspects of disease and other ills, and seeks to overcome, cure, or whatever them. alternative medicine uses different methodologies or perspectives, but has the same goal.</div>
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I agree. I was only thinking of the relationship between western medicine and the patient as it is today or the last 30-50 years. I think it's also probable that medical advances have given our population a bit of license to be even less involved with their own care. So yea, you're right, instead of making an effort to be in touch and aware of our body signals, we don't need to be because a test will do it for us. These issues are only mounting one on top of another. Just another reason to be pessimitic. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">well, both books cover different aspects and in different depths. PCOS is definately covered, along with other kinds of cysts. It's not exhaustive, but it does give a good overview and a resource list for more information (including source materials as endnotes or footnotes).</div>
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I wish I had the time and I wish I had your ability to speed read.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">certainly not. but this is one of those areas where it does show up pretty radically. it's easier to observe it and then discuss the potential social and cultural origins of these behavoir patterns than it is in other realms.</div>
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I don't know if it's necessarily easier to discuss but nothing is more important imo.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">'willfully ignorant' is the term i prefer.</div>
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I know you are so right. I shouldn't use that term.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">it's not that they lack intellgence or ability,</div>
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I totally agree. Unless a person has brain damage or something I believe that any person is capable of learning and understanding anything.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">but somewhere along the line the concept of "don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up" came into being for them. Why?</div>
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Geeze, who knows. So many ideas come to mind...too many to get into.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">when people say that one 'must' have exams, and gives the recs of one or two years, and then another person comes in and says "well, not necessarily and here's how/why"--and then others respond with terms like "that's dangerous" and "these things are important!" it seems to smack of a certain 'hysteria' about the idea.</div>
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yea, i see what you're saying.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">essentially, as with everything, i'm simply providing alternatives without asking people to participate. for me to bring up not using commercial formula, but making one's own; for me to bring up unassisted pregnancy and childbirth; for me to bring up vegetarianism in certain circles; for me to bring up various ecological stances in others--each of these produces a certain measure of resistance. And with this, a great deal of fear-mongering and judgement.</div>
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No doubt.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">to me, language like "things happen to women; exams prevent this stuff from getting 'out of hand!'" is fear-based language. it indicates a certain level of 'hysteria' about the female body and it's inherent inadequacy and need for close outside observation. I get the same reaction from unassisted pregnancy and unassisted birth.</div>
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As I stated before, I think it depends on the person. My reasoning for stating sh*t happens is probably very different than anothers due to my position. For one, I say sh*t because I'm too lazy to expand but this sh*t is based on actual information. And when I consider things like cancer, it's not the female body that comes to mind. The human body is so complex and is in such a delicate balance that it amazes me that we aren't all riddled with cancer. So, I don't believe that it is the intention of medicine/science to instill hysteria about the female body but that we are overwhelmed by the body.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">well, i think there are a lot of factors going on and that both questions can be argued adequately. I think that there is an problem of overshaming and i think there is a problem with the current mindset regarding pelvic exams and their 'necessity' as well as how they're done, when, and why. so, i think it's both.<br><br><br><br>
but i don't have any answers. i just wanted to have a discussion.</div>
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interesting discussion so far <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>gaya</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Many do not understand science, fear it even and that brings about resentment, distrust etc. The only option a person has imo is to explore and study with commited effort. In the end, I believe it will have to be a matter of self determination. And contrary to what I imagine to be popular belief, exploration of alternative options is just as trying if not more so.</div>
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i think a two-pronged approach might work also. overhauling education as well as individual responsibility.<br><br><br><br>
the difficulty is figuring out which 'social force' is at work that inhibits our ability to educate in the sciences.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">I really don't believe such a cultural ratification is possible but I pray to the Gods that I'm wrong.</div>
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we do have examples of large-scale social change such as the civil rights movement and women's movement. but, it takes a great deal of concerted effort over many years and involves changing individual minds to reach a critical mass that will call for dramatic social change through legal/political forums.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">hmmm, why are humans not mindful in general? Why are so many (myself included) so easily distracted or interested in being distracted? I don't know.</div>
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well, yoga and buddhism have a lot of language about why. but generally, i would say it's because people prefer "the devil you know over the devil you don't." the suffering that living in a comfort zone of illusion causes is the suffering that we know. we know that effort to remove ourselves from our illusions causes discomfort--and culturally we associate, wrongly i think, discomfort with suffering and the idea that suffering should be avoided. And, we have not necessarily experienced the outcome of the effort which is radical acceptance and deep awareness. And, we observe that those who are 'different' are socially ostracized, which is not comfortable. Thus, people avoid this sort of action.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Do you think it might have something to do with the process of aging? The first ideas that come to mind are childrens stories/mythology...about growing old and losing the kid within. When I was a teen and in my early 20's I was awake and I was very concerned that I would drift as I got older. I sensed that this was an aspect of aging, that losing my youthful malleability some how forfeited a certain aspect of awareness. I also think that as we age in our culture, our responsibility load increases to the point of chaos and is with out a doubt very distracting.</div>
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i think that this may be part of it, but i also think that upbringing itself has a lot to do with it. I'm reading a book by Anodea Judith, a yoga teacher and psychologist, called Eastern Body, Western Mind. She is outlining the chakra system and it's connection to certain psychological attributes, what different ways of raising children will have which responses in which chakras, and also how to help people 'unlock' these behavoiral patterns through both movement to open the chakra and addressing the specific 'needs' of that charka.<br><br><br><br>
one of the things that i've learned in the many psychology/parenting books is that many parents--who are unaware of their own 'negative' behavoiral patterns and deep-seated, unmet needs from which these behavoirs arise-- often foist their own needs, distractions, and behavoiral problems onto the child--and the child 'reacts' in the only way that she/he can figure out, as the child has no way of thinking 'hey, mom could be wrong' when that child is so in need of mom to be right.<br><br><br><br>
so, i think that a lot of the early patterning begins very young--perhaps in the first 12-18 months of life. And the later years (after college age generally), are spent trying to grow up, grow out of these behavoirs, and act rightly with awareness, dignity, and grace.<br><br><br><br>
unfortunately, i think that some people never think to pick up and change--because they're 'comfortable' where they are and everything can be easily narcoticized through various forms of entertainment and substances.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">I think it's also probable that medical advances have given our population a bit of license to be even less involved with their own care. So yea, you're right, instead of making an effort to be in touch and aware of our body signals, we don't need to be because a test will do it for us. These issues are only mounting one on top of another.</div>
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i think though, that there is a concerted effort on the part of medical groups to cause this to happen. for example, there is an OB/GYN who recently left her position at a hospital because the hospital sent her a letter demanding that she preform more c-sections. They demanded that she take a two fold approach: first, suggesting that elective c-sections are safer for her clients and scheduling c-sections in advance; and second, convincing patients in the birth process that an 'emergency' has arised that needs a c-section.<br><br><br><br>
the doctor resigned from the hospital explaining that this is not good medicine and that c-sections are more dangerous than natural birth, and she prefers natural birth to intervention processes. She went into private practice. She then sent both letters to the local media.<br><br><br><br>
The hospital, in the letter, stated that they could make more money from c-sections, and so they should 'push' for c-sections. Today, the US has more c-sections than any developed nation, and also has the highest mother and infant injury and death rates in hospital and birth-center births than any other developed nation.<br><br><br><br>
and they do it for money.<br><br><br><br>
and i think there's also been a concerted effort to establish them in the 'doctor knows best' category, so that people are distrustful of their own intuitions.<br><br><br><br>
so, i think that there is something else going on here--not just hte opportunity for 'less personal responsibility' on the part of individuals.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">As I stated before, I think it depends on the person. My reasoning for stating sh*t happens is probably very different than anothers due to my position. For one, I say sh*t because I'm too lazy to expand but this sh*t is based on actual information. And when I consider things like cancer, it's not the female body that comes to mind. The human body is so complex and is in such a delicate balance that it amazes me that we aren't all riddled with cancer. So, I don't believe that it is the intention of medicine/science to instill hysteria about the female body but that we are overwhelmed by the body.</div>
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i think that there is a need for the hysteria in our medical culture. other cultures have far less hysteria about their bodies and about female bodies in general--so there are different cultural perspectives out there.
 

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again, it's ok to opt out of any medical procedures that one feels are unnecessary.<br><br><br><br>
for example, pregnancy and birth doesn't necessarily require the current 'normal' process in american standards of care. so, it is not necessary for pelvic exams every two weeks or at all if the pregnancy is healthy and normal. a birth can also progress without intervention safely. women's bodies are made to support healthy pregnancies and give birth without help or intervention. of course, there are situations where intervention is absolutely necessary and it is important to use them in these situations. It is up to the woman, using her knowledge and intuition, to decide when and which interventions are necessary.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>zoebird</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
again, it's ok to opt out of any medical procedures that one feels are unnecessary.<br><br><br><br>
for example, pregnancy and birth doesn't necessarily require the current 'normal' process in american standards of care. so, it is not necessary for pelvic exams every two weeks or at all if the pregnancy is healthy and normal. a birth can also progress without intervention safely. women's bodies are made to support healthy pregnancies and give birth without help or intervention. of course, there are situations where intervention is absolutely necessary and it is important to use them in these situations. It is up to the woman, using her knowledge and intuition, to decide when and which interventions are necessary.</div>
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You mentioned this in an earlier post too. Just out of curiousity, are you planning to give birth on your own?
 

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Discussion Starter #14
katie:<br><br><br><br>
yes, at this point my husband and I are preparing for an <a href="http://unassistedbirth.com" target="_blank">unassisted pregnancy and unasisted childbirth</a>. this means that we will be providing our own self care, and only use outside help if we feel that we need it.<br><br><br><br>
this can only be done with preparation. it focuses on empowering women to choose the birth process that is best for them--which may include any number of tests during pregnancy and interventions during birth as she feels it is necessary. instead of being told "this is the schedule of appointments, this is when you'll have which tests done, and this is when you'll birth," the UCer chooses what the schedule of appointments will be--if any--when and whether she'll have any or which tests done, and of course, wait until her body is ready for birth rather than inducing (often done unnecessarily--only determined after the fact), or seek interventions if she feels it is necessary.<br><br><br><br>
and yes, i plan on doing this for my first birth. I feel confident in my body's ability to have a healthy pregnancy and birth, and i have the support of my husband. it's perfectly legal to have UP and UC in every state as well.
 

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That sounds pretty brave to me. My Mum gave birth to me in a hospital and it was lucky she did or we'd both be dead now. I hope you're doing some serious research, hope it all goes well.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>gas4</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
That sounds pretty brave to me. My Mum gave birth to me in a hospital and it was lucky she did or we'd both be dead now. I hope you're doing some serious research, hope it all goes well.</div>
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Yeah, I had a perfectly normal and healthy pregnancy too until I went into preterm labor over 2 months early.<br><br>
Curious, though, on how a woman would know her pregnancy is normal and healthy without some sort of examination. Intuition does not cut it.<br><br>
Mary
 

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A pap saved my friend's life. She was 24. They got the cancer out and she's alive today because of it. She had no symptoms. She's very holistic and in tune with her body. She was shocked to bits, of course, and now gets a pap every 6 months. I'm sure there are some cases where a yearly pap isn't necessary, but that's the point. You just don't know. Its not "scare tactics", its not overreaction - its just a fact of life that you can't predict these things sometimes, and I think even one life saved is worth it. To me its no different from giving your kids a helmet when they ride their bikes. They aren't necessarily going to fall on their heads (I never did.) But why risk it?<br><br><br><br>
Obviously the OP isn't sexually active, so the exam was probably very upsetting to her, but I don't know if anything inappropriate was done... the doctor was certainly careless, and I hope the OP is able to express her feelings better at the next exam. Don't bow down the power of doctors, you have the right to discuss your examination and treatment options. Please discuss your feelings with your parents, and with your doctor the next time you are in.<br><br><br><br>
I do not have a GYN, my (female) PCP does all my yearly testing (including my pap), and there is nothing innappropriate about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
there is a blood test called the AMAS test that is more accurate to determine if one has cancer.
 

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yeah but where do you buy the equipment to do it yourself
 
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