Defensive from meat eaters

MaryC1999 · Jul 4, 2006

Ok, so I'm reading this book called "Living among meat eaters" by Carol Adams. In it she theorizes that meat eaters who are hostile or defensive are so because they feel deep down they should be vega*n too. She thinks that by making you miserable or limiting your food choices or even sabatoging you they can prove to themselves that vega*nism is too hard or inconvienent or miserable so they can continue to live out the lie that they have no other choice but to continue eating and living the way they are. 
A lot of what she says makes A LOT of sense when I think about those who've been hostile or defensive around me. They're also the ones who tell me they don't want to hear about the reasons I'm veg*n. I always figured it's because they'd rather live out the lie that these animals lead decent lives and believe the California Dairy commercials then really face the price the animals pay for their palate pleasing choices. 
So what do you all think? Are hostile meat eaters secretly afraid if they knew the truth, they'd be motivated to change? Are they a little jealous that you had the courage to face the truth and change your life? Is it all bunk? 
I'm leaning towards believing it, really. 
Mary

synergy · Jul 4, 2006

Personally, I know that when I ate meat, I had a don't ask, don't tell policy. I couldn't handle thinking about the fact that it was a dead animal that I was eating. 
My sister currently eats meat and is even worse than I was. She absolutely refuses to hear anything about meat- and what it actually is. She knows that if she thinks about it too much, she couldn't eat it- but she is not ready to not eat it. 
She lives with a kind of cognitive dissonance about meat everyday- like many others I'm sure. 
I think there is definitely something to Adam's theory, but I don't think it applies to everyone.

Seb_0810 · Jul 4, 2006

The book is right. When I was an omni I did not like to hear veg*n preaching because it made me feel guilty. I wanted to be vegan inside. And, well, I went vegan. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/grin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="

">

Dirty Martini · Jul 4, 2006

Problem is, you're asking a bunch of vegetarians if omnis feel guilty over eating meat, when the vegetarians likely became vegetarian because they felt eating meat was bad. 
I know many omnis who know exactly what meat is and don't feel bad about it at all. I suppose that omnis likely get defensive because they feel that vegetarians are attacking their moral values - just as vegetarians get defensive when omnis question our moral system ("don't you kill mice when grain is harvested?")

ikisstrees · Jul 4, 2006

I think people like to figure things out for themselves. I truly believe I could tell one hundred people about why I don't eat meat or whatever, show them compelling pictures/stories, and the most I am going to get from them is a weeks worth of avoiding meat. People don't like being told what to do; they like thinking their lifestyle changes come from their own reasoning. This is from just from personal experience, though.

raw jess · Jul 4, 2006

OregonAmy said exactly what I was thinking. We, being veg*n, are going to say that's how we felt, because we all became veg*n for a reason (that was probably it.) A lot of omnis don't feel that way, and that's why they're not. 
I also think a lot of vegetarians know what dairy cows and laying chickens go through, but still eat dairy/egg for however they justify it. I think some/most omnis do the same. They know, but they justify it however. 
****I'm NOT bashing vegetarians, I'm just using the same logic as an example. I've never been vegan, so please don't take it that way.

Dirty Martini · Jul 4, 2006

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by sarahjayn1980 <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a> 
I think OregonAmy's point about a selective audience is valid.</div>
</div>
 
Well of course it is! As if I'd argue an invalid point! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="

"> <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="

"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/laugh.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":lol:">

Shadowlee · Jul 4, 2006

Sadly, a lot of people are hostile to anything they perceive as "different". It's not just a difference in dietary choices, it's also a difference in dress/appearance, religion, sexuality, politics etc etc etc etc. Humans in general prefer conformity to diversity. I've had people attack my decision to get a tattoo, wear black or not have children with more hostility then my choice to not eat meat. 
I know plenty of people who simply do not care about animal rights/welfare. They know where their meat comes from and it doesn't bother them. They'll still happily eat it guilt-free.

remilard · Jul 4, 2006

OregonAmy knows where her meat came from.

Dirty Martini · Jul 4, 2006

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by Shadowlee <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a> 
Sadly, a lot of people are hostile to anything they perceive as "different".</div>
</div>
 
While I would use "resistant" instead of "hostile" I generally agree. However you see that on this board as well. While many veggies believe they're "enlightened", they are really just making a dietary choice that is different from others' choices. And, thus, become hostile toward people who have different values from theirs (eat meat, wear fur/leather, etc).

Scythe · Jul 4, 2006

I get defensive (read: hostile) when people question my beliefs. Not because I feel guilty, I just don't give a **** what they think and want them to shut up.

Moechalatte · Jul 4, 2006

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by MaryC1999 <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a> 
Ok, so I'm reading this book called "Living among meat eaters" by Carol Adams. In it she theorizes that meat eaters who are hostile or defensive are so because they feel deep down they should be vega*n too. She thinks that by making you miserable or limiting your food choices or even sabatoging you they can prove to themselves that vega*nism is too hard or inconvienent or miserable so they can continue to live out the lie that they have no other choice but to continue eating and living the way they are. 
A lot of what she says makes A LOT of sense when I think about those who've been hostile or defensive around me. They're also the ones who tell me they don't want to hear about the reasons I'm veg*n. I always figured it's because they'd rather live out the lie that these animals lead decent lives and believe the California Dairy commercials then really face the price the animals pay for their palate pleasing choices. 
So what do you all think? Are hostile meat eaters secretly afraid if they knew the truth, they'd be motivated to change? Are they a little jealous that you had the courage to face the truth and change your life? Is it all bunk? 
I'm leaning towards believing it, really. 
Mary</div>
</div>
 
I think that, generally speaking, that could be very true... 
I remember doing the same thing - don't ask, don't tell, don't *think*. When I ever started to wonder about the animal or start to feel even the slightest bit guilty, I'd put those ideas out of my head and focus on how good it tasted, like that was all that mattered. 
I think the social pressure put on people has a whole lot to do with it, also. My parents occasionally made pretty rude comments about people who didn't eat meat for ethical reasons - claiming they were hypocritical for whatever reason, or that they were overly emotional. Between our parents and role models telling us one thing, and society backing them up, I think it's hard for people to stop and think about the issue... I mean, we're pretty much being told not to stop and think about it - just watch all those horrible commercials! They're supposed to be doing the thinking for us... and they do for a lot of people. 
I think the easier path for most people to take is to allow themselves to be spoon-fed happy information, and to not question it. It's not an easy thing to realize that there are some major problems with our lifestyles, and then to go a step further and go 'against the grain' to change those things. 
But I don't think I'd go as far as to say they're 'jealous' of veg*ans ... I think if a person gets to that stage, that means they've thought about the issue and understand why it's wrong - and I don't think those are the people mocking or degrading veg*ans. I think those people are the ones who are happy being spoon-fed the cr*p and are trying to block out any ideas that go against their rainbows and clouds beliefs...

Irizary · Jul 4, 2006

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by Scythe <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a> 
I get defensive (read: hostile) when people question my beliefs. Not because I feel guilty, I just don't give a **** what they think and want them to shut up.</div>
</div>
 
I think someone who really didn't care what others thought wouldn't be so eager to shut those others up. It wouldn't really trigger a reaction (hostility) and they'd blow it off. I know when I don't care about something, someone can go on and on about it and it doesn't really affect me personally, so it's no big deal if they talk about it. I'll just say "yeah, o.k." but it won't make me hostile and defensive.

Sevenseas · Jul 4, 2006

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by MaryC1999 <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a> 
Are hostile meat eaters secretly afraid if they knew the truth, they'd be motivated to change?</div>
</div>
 
Some are, some aren't. People are hostile out of vastly different reasons. My own scientific theory, based on a lot of psychological and sociological data, is that they're pricks.

kpickell · Jul 4, 2006

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by MaryC1999 <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a> 
Ok, so I'm reading this book called "Living among meat eaters" by Carol Adams. In it she theorizes that meat eaters who are hostile or defensive are so because they feel deep down they should be vega*n too. She thinks that by making you miserable or limiting your food choices or even sabatoging you they can prove to themselves that vega*nism is too hard or inconvienent or miserable so they can continue to live out the lie that they have no other choice but to continue eating and living the way they are. 
A lot of what she says makes A LOT of sense when I think about those who've been hostile or defensive around me. They're also the ones who tell me they don't want to hear about the reasons I'm veg*n. I always figured it's because they'd rather live out the lie that these animals lead decent lives and believe the California Dairy commercials then really face the price the animals pay for their palate pleasing choices. 
So what do you all think? Are hostile meat eaters secretly afraid if they knew the truth, they'd be motivated to change? Are they a little jealous that you had the courage to face the truth and change your life? Is it all bunk? 
I'm leaning towards believing it, really. 
Mary</div>
</div>
 
The book couldn't be more wrong if it tried.

MrFalafel · Jul 4, 2006

I knew a guy a few years ago that was always telling gay jokes and making derisive comments about gays and used to troll gay newsgroups giving them a hard time. We always wondered why he spent so much time obsessing about gays when he was supposedly so anti-gay. 
Sure enough, I heard that he moved in with his new boyfriend two years ago. 
That said, the most level-headed ominis I know say 'Oh you're a vegan? Great! That means more meat and cheese for me'. They are completely unthreatened, totally open to it and are happy for others to live that way. It just isn't for them. That's a great attitude. 
However, I am convinced that the hostile ominis are indeed like my old homophobic friend, suffering from meat-guilt, or are truly upset at how others can stand up for their personal morals or ethics when they don't have the courage to.

Scythe · Jul 4, 2006

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by Irizary <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a> 
I think someone who really didn't care what others thought wouldn't be so eager to shut those others up. It wouldn't really trigger a reaction (hostility) and they'd blow it off. I know when I don't care about something, someone can go on and on about it and it doesn't really affect me personally, so it's no big deal if they talk about it. I'll just say "yeah, o.k." but it won't make me hostile and defensive.</div>
</div>
 
It's not so much what they're saying, more that they're talking at me and I want them to not be.

Ludi · Jul 4, 2006

I think people often get defensive when another person is claiming the moral high ground. If people are promoting their vegetarianism on moral or ethical grounds, then they may be implicitly or explicitly stating their morals are "higher" or "better" than the other person's, not just "different." People don't like being talked down to or made to feel inferior. Nobody likes to hear "I'm better than you." If they get defensive at such a statement, implied or explicit, it doesn't mean they are "guilty" about their own moral choices.

Gita · Jul 4, 2006

Actually I'm thinking of remaining a vegitarian and calling myself an Omni anyway. I really dont think Omnis are jealous of vegitarians-- They can eat all vegitarian food as well as all Omni food. It is mathematical. The author's thesis does not make sence to me. Why would someone radically restrict ones diet and then claim that others wanted to emulate them? Sorry-- does not compute.

MaryC1999 · Jul 4, 2006

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by MrFalafel <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a> 
I knew a guy a few years ago that was always telling gay jokes and making derisive comments about gays and used to troll gay newsgroups giving them a hard time. We always wondered why he spent so much time obsessing about gays when he was supposedly so anti-gay. 
Sure enough, I heard that he moved in with his new boyfriend two years ago. 
That said, the most level-headed ominis I know say 'Oh you're a vegan? Great! That means more meat and cheese for me'. They are completely unthreatened, totally open to it and are happy for others to live that way. It just isn't for them. That's a great attitude. 
However, I am convinced that the hostile ominis are indeed like my old homophobic friend, suffering from meat-guilt, or are truly upset at how others can stand up for their personal morals or ethics when they don't have the courage to.</div>
</div>
 
This is it exactly for me. I know plenty of omni's who are like "Oh you're vegan, that's nice. By the way, the potato salad has bacon bits in it". It's the ones who are the biggest jerks about it that stand out. 
I way over simplified what she said in the book. It's a good book, even if you don't think you agree, it's a worthwhile read for anyone. 
I do think that lots of hostility in someone is usually a sign of fighting a change. Of course, some people just might be jerks to everyone, but usually people who are hostile are insecure and desperate to believe they are living the "right" way. 
I know this is a selective audience. Thing is, if the books is right, omni's wouldn't admit to it. lol I was just wondering what everyone's personal experiences are regarding this. 
Mary

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