[Irizary]

This is interesting:

India's Holy Cow: the Sacred and the Suffering

http://tedeboy.tripod.com/drmichaelwfox/id47.html

It says there is sufficient feed for only 60% of India's cattle population and much land is over-grazed - and so many are starving and chronically malnourished. There is an "excess" of cattle for the environment - and thus if cows are made to reproduce in order to produce milk, there is an issue in what happens to all the offspring, i.e. it doesn't seem sustainable without killing...

 

[Indian Summer]

Thanks, that was a really interesting article. It doesn't seem to address pre-industrial dairy farming, though? I tend to believe it was more like peace mentioned than the methods described in the article.

 

[gas4]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indian Summer

I don't know either, but perhaps it has to do with the particular breed. Cows that I've seen in pictures or on TV from India don't at all look much like the cows they have in Europe or North America.

Cow milk is and has been for thousands of years a very important food for Hindus. But before the downfall when commercial dairies and cruel practices were introduced in India in 1950, how did they produce cow milk? If Hindus really were so concerned about cows, could they really keep the cows constantly pregnant and kill the calves?

I've been told by someone who'd know that the non-kill policy just means that the old cows are basically left to die. Apparently they're neglected and basically starved until they die anyway. If that is the case then the whole sacred cow thing seems like a formality.

 

[gas4]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irizary

This is interesting:

India's Holy Cow: the Sacred and the Suffering

http://tedeboy.tripod.com/drmichaelwfox/id47.html

It says there is sufficient feed for only 60% of India's cattle population and much land is over-grazed - and so many are starving and chronically malnourished. There is an "excess" of cattle for the environment - and thus if cows are made to reproduce in order to produce milk, there is an issue in what happens to all the offspring, i.e. it doesn't seem sustainable without killing...

I had also heard that the old cows that can't produce anymore are neglected and usually end up starving to death because the producing cows are given all the food.

 

[gas4]

Looks like we're back to the whole veganism solution

 

[GhostUser]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gas4

Looks like we're back to the whole veganism solution

 

[Indian Summer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gas4

I had also heard that the old cows that can't produce anymore are neglected and usually end up starving to death because the producing cows are given all the food.

Yes, that is how it is today after Indian dairy farming has become industrialised.

Quote:

Looks like we're back to the whole veganism solution

Veganism remains the solution as long as we have an abundance of good vegan food, and no need for oxen to help with plowing. But we have not seen evidence that dairy farming is inherently cruel - only that the industrialised, factory farming sort of dairy farms are cruel. (That is, unless you consider taking the excess and/or unused milk and using oxens to help with plowing to be cruel.)

 

[Pescas]

I asked my cooking teacher and she said that of course they didnt have to give birth. Shes been teaching cooking class for over 20 years =O I figured she was right.

 

[IamJen]

Your cooking teacher needs to take a biology class.

 

[Sevenseas]

Being a cooking class teacher has nothing to do with what one knows about how something is produced. She could have been a teacher for 100 years and think that tomatoes grow out of Tom Cruise's ass.

 

[meatless]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sevenseas

She could have been a teacher for 100 years and think that tomatoes grow out of Tom Cruise's ass.

are you saying they don't?

 

[Sevenseas]

No, but that belief is a central part of the mythology of Scientology.

Even a little child knows that tomatoes grow out of Ashley Judd's nostrils.

 

[gas4]

Quote:

Veganism remains the solution as long as we have an abundance of good vegan food, and no need for oxen to help with plowing. But we have not seen evidence that dairy farming is inherently cruel - only that the industrialised, factory farming sort of dairy farms are cruel. (That is, unless you consider taking the excess and/or unused milk and using oxens to help with plowing to be cruel.)

I think I might consider taking excess milk cruel based on my experience of how reluctant cows are to give up any of their milk when they keep their calf. Of course that's not nearly as cruel as taking the calf away.

However, what happens to the calf when it grows up? Does it get to stay with it's mother? Of course not if it's a bull, but what if it's a heifer? My parents have three retired dairy cows, one of which had a calf, feed her for a whole year and protected her like mother cows do until she was two years old at which point my parents decided that they couldn't afford to keep such a young cow that wasn't going to make them any profit whatsoever so she was sold (I can't really blame them here because they're already keeping the three cows and they're really quite poor with the mortgage they have).

Anyway, the heifer's mother was so distraught, much more so than cows that lose their calves at a few days old. She searched for her in every paddock they moved to and in every other mob of cows she saw for so long. It was heartbreaking. I would certainly call that cruel.

 

[jojob1969]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indian Summer

But we have not seen evidence that dairy farming is inherently cruel - only that the industrialized, factory farming sort of dairy farms are cruel.

The farm I grew up on was a small family farm. My aunts and uncles ran small farms. Many of our neighbors had small farms. From what I observed during the 17 years I lived in the farming community, small family farms, even though they are not industrialized, are still cruel.

The animals are often viewed as property, not feeling creatures. The calves are removed from their mother and given a soy based formula to drink. Ironically, the calves drink soy so humans can drink "real" milk. The males are sent to the auction.

The image of cows happily grazing in a meadow on family farms is not completely true. When winter comes the cows can not go outside because of the snow and cold. They spend months in a crowded barn where they only have enough room to stand or lay down. They aren't able to walk around. Spending the winter months on the hard concrete floor is hard on their knees. Many go lame.

As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, these cows only live for a few years. When they get sick or are no longer useful, they are disposed of.

I described some of my childhood experiences in another thread.

http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...ad.php?t=62138

Quote:

...One of the worst memories took place about 30 years ago. I was about 6 at the time. There was a sick cow in the barn. My father called the "auction guy" to take her away. The cow was too sick to stand up so they tied a rope to her leg and dragged her screaming accross the concrete floor and onto the truck. When I asked my father where they were taking her he said, "To sell for dog food." When I started crying Dad sent me into the house. When my mom found out why I was upset she just said "Thats just part of life, get use to it."

I started remember other things too. The "free range" chickens spent the winter in a unheated coop. When I asked why some of the chickens were missing toes I was told that they had frozen off in the winter.

The chickens were there for the eggs. Most of the roosters that hatched were killed as soon as they were big enough to eat.

Male calves were sent to the auction. Bull calves are useless on a dairy farm. I remember how thier mothers would call out for them for days after they were sent away. A few years ago a local girl was kidnapped while out riding her bike. Her family went on TV begging for her return. The police found her clothes but they never found her body. Are the human mother and the cow mother really any different? They both just want thier babies back home safe; but their babies are already dead.

I could go on and on...

Keep in mind that these events took place on a small family farm, not a factory farm. The other farms around us were no better. Perhaps somewhere there are cruelty free dairy farms, but I have never seen one.

 

[Eclipse]

After reading that story about cows in India, cow slaughter doesn't look so bad anymore

.

 

[luv4all]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jojob1969

WARNING: If you want to drink milk stop reading now. You may find this offensive.

I grew up on a dairy farm and can tell you for a fact that, yes, cows must give birth in order to give milk. They are usually artificially inseminated. Shortly after birth the calf is taken away, usually to be sold for veal. The cow will go through a mourning period and call out for her missing calf. She will continue to produce milk for about a year before she "dries up". At that point she is inseminated again and the process starts over. Because they are kept in a constant state of pregnancy or lactation the typical dairy cow will only live 4-5 years.

You may have just given me a reason to aspire towards veganism. You are most definately the first, I didn't think anything could tear me away from my beloved cheeze.

Now, just have to convine mum and dad to let me go vegetarian...

 

[Gammerus]

Wow, I haven't considered a vegan diet really before but I have to say this has given me alot to think about and research

 

[meatless]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jojob1969

The farm I grew up on was a small family farm. My aunts and uncles ran small farms. Many of our neighbors had small farms. From what I observed during the 17 years I lived in the farming community, small family farms, even though they are not industrialized, are still cruel.

The animals are often viewed as property, not feeling creatures. The calves are removed from their mother and given a soy based formula to drink. Ironically, the calves drink soy so humans can drink "real" milk. The males are sent to the auction.

The image of cows happily grazing in a meadow on family farms is not completely true. When winter comes the cows can not go outside because of the snow and cold. They spend months in a crowded barn where then only have enough room to stand or lay down. They aren't able to walk around. Spending the winter months on the hard concrete floor is hard on their knees. Many go lame.

As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, these cows only live for a few years. When they get sick or are no longer useful, they are disposed of.

I described some of my childhood experiences in another thread.

http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...ad.php?t=62138

Keep in mind that these events took place on a small family farm, not a factory farm. The other farms around us were no better. Perhaps somewhere there are cruelty free dairy farms, but I have never seen one.

This is the experience I had as well, although my family did not farm. I grew up rurally though, surrounded by family farms. Many of the people I knew were farmers. They maybe didn't beat their animals or anything, but they definitely regarded them as property, and they definitely did all the things that you've described.

A friend of mine was quite distraught because the cow he had raised for a 4H project was being sent to slaughter.

Good luck to those of you now contemplating veganism!

It was learning about the dairy industry and the anguish of the mother cows that convinced me I needed to be vegan. Any of us vegans on the board would be more than happy to help you out if you need.

 

[poppyseed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by poppyseed

Calves are byproducts of the dairy industry. These calves are taken away very early in their lives to end up in veal crates, tethered until slaughtered.

quote from 'White lies' booklet :

'Milk production today is big business. Currently in the UK 2.2 million cows are held in 22,000 dairy holdings. There total value ofthe production of milk in the UK is estimated to be £2.7 billion'

it goes on to say:

'A common misconception is that it is nateral for cows to produce milk constantly. This is not the case; just like us, cow's only produce milk after a nine month pregancy and giving birth. Todays large-scale intensive dairy farming employs a highly regulated regime of cycling pregnancy and lactation concurrently, meaning that cows are both lactating and being milked at the same time for most of each year. This intensive physical demand puts a tremendous strain on the dairy cow and, as she gets older, infertility and severe infections causing mastitis and lameness cuts short her economic and productive life. (The dairy council 2002) The average lifespan of a modern dairy cow is only five years - that is after three or four lactations, when naturally she may live for 20 -30 years.'

I strongly recommend this booklet which can be got from www.vegetarian.org uk

Also because of this intensive milking the dairy cow when has mastitis is still milked and the dairy industry allows so much pus into the milk production.

And there can be antibiotic residue in dairy milk.

Cows milk is loaded with hormones (like human milk) designed for calves and there is a strong link between the rise of breast cancer and prostate cancer. This is due to the fact of our own hormones being bombarded with these extra hormones that can cause cancer.

I am repeated here what I put earlier in thread as this is factual research.

Also the thought of possible drinking pus in the dairy milk would be sufficient to put anybody off!!.

Regarding cows in India. Nearly all leather products are from india. These poor cows are pulled over hundreds of miles without water and food and if they collapse the are 'enticed' up on their legs again by such hidious methods as rubbing mustard into their eyes. By the time they arrive for slaughter their condition is dreadful and that includes their skin which has open sores on. These hides are soaked in chemicals in the process of turning them into leather (Earthlings.com). It is a myth that leather is a byproduct of the dairy industry.

I strongly suggest that, if you havent already, see the dvd Earthlings.

 

[Dirty Martini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irizary

This is interesting:

India's Holy Cow: the Sacred and the Suffering

http://tedeboy.tripod.com/drmichaelwfox/id47.html

It says there is sufficient feed for only 60% of India's cattle population and much land is over-grazed - and so many are starving and chronically malnourished. There is an "excess" of cattle for the environment - and thus if cows are made to reproduce in order to produce milk, there is an issue in what happens to all the offspring, i.e. it doesn't seem sustainable without killing...

I wonder how reliable this source is.

When I was working in that region, I asked three South Indians about milk and vegetarianism. I asked why milk was okay to drink if the cow is considered sacred (and the three people I asked about this were all from Tamil Nadu).

The answer was that milk = life, and that milk cows give is revered as a source of life and nutrition. While the above article may be true in some cases, I do wonder how widespread the practice is.

I did see a lot of cows in the streets, but then I wasn't around any dairy farms.