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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Veganism is a new concept. It has arisen out of abuse to animals while taking what they could supply to humans as food. So shunning any kind of animal products since the animals are abused is basically to show compassion on them.<br><br>
But consider the animal products (such as milk from the cows) when taken without any abuse to them. Is it alright to treat cows with compassion and at the same time use their milk for human consumption?<br><br>
It would be possible if each one has a barn and grows his one cows for milk. But do not sell the cows to slaughter houses once they grow old. They should be treated akin to once own mother. Who will send their mother to slaughter house when she's old?<br><br>
Humanity is yet to learn to be humane.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>followguru</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2995570"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Is it alright to treat cows with compassion and at the same time use their milk for human consumption?</div>
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I would argue that it is not <i>possible</i> to treat cows with compassion and at the same time use their milk for human consumption.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Why not? Basically cows have been domesticated all around the world for centuries. The cows do not get hurt when they are milked. But sending them to slaughter houses do hurt them. It is possible when people keep them for life and treat them as one among their own family members.<br><br>
Yes, it would not be possible when you look at cows as business ventures.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>followguru</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2995583"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
It is possible when people keep them for life and treat them as one among their own family members.</div>
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I don't take liquids from the bodies of my family members for my personal use. I don't "keep" my family members. Nothing about a relationship between humans and cows that involves milking is something I would consider ethical.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>followguru</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2995570"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Is it alright to treat cows with compassion and at the same time use their milk for human consumption?</div>
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Even if a cow was able to speak to me, and tell me she would be greatly offended if I didn't drink her milk, I wouldn't drink it. Same as I don't drink gorilla milk. Or giraffe milk. Or hippo milk. Why would I want to drink the mammary secretions of another animal?<br><br>
A cow only produces milk to feed her offspring. You could be treating that cow like you do a member of your own family, but if you drink her milk, you would be denying her children food. (that is if you hadn't already shipped them off to a veal farm). You also have the general question of "what right as a species do we have to treat other creatures as commodities?"
 

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in my opinion, the milk isn't ours to use. apart from that, what do you suggest should happen to all the calves needed to make the cow produce milk in the first place?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>zirpkatze</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2995590"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
in my opinion, the milk isn't ours to use. apart from that, what do you suggest should happen to all the calves needed to make the cow produce milk in the first place?</div>
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This. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/yes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":yes:"><br><br>
Cows make milk for their own babies, not for humans to take.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Your points make sense.
 

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Compassionate?<br><br>
Maybe.<br><br>
Ethical?<br><br>
Slightly less of a chance.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Werewolf Girl</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2995594"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
This. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/yes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":yes:"><br><br>
Cows make milk for their own babies, not for humans to take.</div>
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Cows make more milk than the baby can drink, don't they?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Envy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2995983"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
Cows make more milk than the baby can drink, don't they?</div>
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People breed cows to produce the most milk possible (some also give hormones to enhance production).<br><br>
Even when there is extra milk it's still not healthy for us to consume it.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>luvourmother</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2995987"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
People breed cows to produce the most milk possible (some also give hormones to enhance production).</div>
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Indeed.<br><br>
So how many cows <b>doesn't</b> make more milk than their young 'uns need nowadays?<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>luvourmother</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2995987"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Even when there is extra milk it's still not healthy for us to consume it.</div>
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Disputable.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Envy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2996000"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
So how many cows <b>doesn't</b> make more milk than their young 'uns need nowadays?</div>
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As I said already, just because they CAN make more milk doesn't mean we should drink it.<br><br>
Milk has a high amount of saturated animal fats, which greatly contribute to cardiovascular disease when consumed regularly (among a long list of other health problems associated with consuming dairy products...). I am curious to know your reasoning as to why milk is healthy to consume?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>luvourmother</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2996002"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
As I said already, just because they CAN make more milk doesn't mean we should drink it.</div>
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Then what do you suggest we do with it?<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>luvourmother</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2996002"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
Milk has a high amount of saturated animal fats, which greatly contribute to cardiovascular disease when consumed regularly (among a long list of other health problems associated with consuming dairy products...). I am curious to know your reasoning as to why milk is healthy to consume?</div>
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Whole milk contains 2 grams of saturated fat per 100 grams of milk, which is far from a high amount.<br><br>
Also, <a href="http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skimmed_milk" target="_blank">http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skimmed_milk</a><br><br>
Also, the concept that saturated fats contribute to cardiovascular diseases is far from a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturated_fat_and_cardiovascular_disease_controversy" target="_blank">fact</a>.<br><br>
And no, I'm not going to argue that milk is healthy on a vegan forum.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Envy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2996004"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Then what do you suggest we do with it?</div>
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Stop making cows that make the most milk possible, the reason producers do this is to make as much money as they possibly can.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Envy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2996004"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Whole milk contains 2 grams of saturated fat per 100 grams of milk, which is far from a high amount.</div>
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100 grams of milk is a small serving, the average serving size of milk is 1 cup, which equals 8 grams total fat, 5 grams sat fat. <a href="http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/69/2" target="_blank">http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/...-products/69/2</a> "This food is high in Saturated Fat, and a large portion of the calories in this food come from sugars."<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Envy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2996004"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Also, <a href="http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skimmed_milk" target="_blank">http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skimmed_milk</a></div>
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Removing the fat from milk is a process we do because milk is so incredibly unhealthy in the first place, the milk producers know full fat is unhealthy yet they still want to sell as much milk as possible so they market these lower fat versions in order to increase sales. when you have to take the fat out of a food for it to be considered healthy, its not a healthy food to consume.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Envy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2996004"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Also, the concept that saturated fats contribute to cardiovascular diseases is far from a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturated_fat_and_cardiovascular_disease_controversy" target="_blank">fact</a>.</div>
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Wiki is not considered a reliable source of scientific info, websites that are devoted to cardiovascular disease are more accurate: <a href="http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/cad/atrisk.html" target="_blank">http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/heal...ad/atrisk.html</a><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Envy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2996004"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
And no, I'm not going to argue that milk is healthy on a vegan forum.</div>
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you already are :p
 

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The whole taking baby cows away from momma cow all the time is what gets to me the most. No OP, I'm sorry, but it is cruel. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/sad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":(">
 

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If you were to gently milk a cow by hand and you took the milk after it's baby has eaten, I don't see any cruelty in that. But I don't want to drink something that's come out of a cow's teat. Love 'em and all that, but eww, no ta! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Nishani</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2996044"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
If you were to gently milk a cow by hand and you took the milk after it's baby has eaten, I don't see any cruelty in that. But I don't want to drink something that's come out of a cow's teat. Love 'em and all that, but eww, no ta! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"></div>
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Even so...I highly doubt a cow can be impregnated both naturally and consistently.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>luvourmother</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2996024"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Stop making cows that make the most milk possible, the reason producers do this is to make as much money as they possibly can.</div>
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What will we do until then?<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>luvourmother</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2996024"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
100 grams of milk is a small serving, the average serving size of milk is 1 cup, which equals 8 grams total fat, 5 grams sat fat. <a href="http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/69/2" target="_blank">http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/...-products/69/2</a> "This food is high in Saturated Fat, and a large portion of the calories in this food come from sugars."</div>
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It's still not much compared to those products with higher amounts of saturated fats.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>luvourmother</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2996024"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Removing the fat from milk is a process we do because milk is so incredibly unhealthy in the first place, the milk producers know full fat is unhealthy yet they still want to sell as much milk as possible so they market these lower fat versions in order to increase sales. when you have to take the fat out of a food for it to be considered healthy, its not a healthy food to consume.</div>
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Or maybe it's for people who wants less fat in their diet in general?<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>luvourmother</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2996024"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Wiki is not considered a reliable source of scientific info, websites that are devoted to cardiovascular disease are more accurate: <a href="http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/cad/atrisk.html" target="_blank">http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/heal...ad/atrisk.html</a></div>
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It's accurate, considering that they take facts from several studies, reviews and tests.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>luvourmother</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2996024"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
you already are :p</div>
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Nah, I haven't said anything positive about milk yet.
 
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