Choice [reasoning for lacto-vegetarianism]

1827 Views 25 Replies 17 Participants Last post by Medesha, Jan 22, 2007

AngelLargay

Discussion Starter · Jan 20, 2007

I have been reading many of the posts throughout the site familiarizing myself with as much of the wonderful information that is available here. Along the way, I've run into the occasional post that has given me pause. For instance, there is a post now in the vegan section, that asks vegans what they think of vegetarians. I am not vegan therefore the poster was not asking me, so I did not answer there. I would like to comment here.

There is something that I am confused about after reading through that (and many other) posts. First, I have not found the reasons for my choice to become lacto-vegetarian. I am not under the delusion that my reasons are unique, so I wonder where the rest of you are? Many of the posts in the aforementioned thread implied that the lacto-ovo vegetarian is confused morally. Though there is no 'ovo' in me, here's my explanation for why I am the way I am:

For me to be able to eat meat, an animal must die. For me to eat eggs, an animal-to-be must cease the to-be part of that definition. Eggs, to my mind, are chicken abortions. In both cases, my actions necessarily require the end of life of another living creature, one whom I believe, has a rudimentary self-awareness. For me to have milk, it is not necessary that an animal be abused by my definition of abuse. I understand that for many, owning an animal and treating it with nothing but love is abuse - my definition of abuse does not extend anywhere near that far. I also understand that many in the dairy industry do not make the same choices in their conduct toward animals as I would. It does not have to be that way; it is their choice. I do not feel that I am responsible for another persons choices. I can understand and appreciate why someone would choose to allow the dairy industry's policy's and choices to affect theirs, but I do not.

Since I had not heard this explanation before, I thought I would offer it as a vehicle for better understanding only. It is my reason for my choices and not meant to me an attack on anyone or their choices. Perhaps as time goes on, I will no longer feel the same way and go completely vegan or beyond but all I shall continually ask of myself is to live what I believe.

Angel

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jeneticallymodified

· #2 · Jan 20, 2007

i understand your choice, and i personally feel that other people are entitled to their choices. my bf isn't vegetarian, for example- as its not my choice to make for him, and he's entitled to make it himself.

respectfully, i'd like to comment that:

i think part of the reason behind vegans not eating dairy (beside the abuse that they feel it does entail) is because they feel that by purchasing the product, they're giving the producers of said product a message- that they feel it is an acceptable practice to treat animals the way that they choose to. while anothers choice is their own- there are such things as enabling and supporting decisions/actions which you feel are wrong and cruel- many people aren't happy to do this.

i personally do feel that abuse is involved in the production of dairy- i think many other who choose not to eat it do too- regardless of how kindly a cow is treated, how happy its life is, how long it lives past its milk producing age, its still got to be made pregnant yearly in order to continue to lactate constantly, and the milk has to be withdrawn from the offspring for whom it was intended, for humans to be able to consume it. and then there is whatever happens to the calf to factor in. but thats dependant on my definion of abuse, which includes mental cruelty, forced withdrawl of an offspring/mother, and rape.

anyway, personally, i don't have a problem with vegetarianism at all- i used to be one! my mum and brother are vegetarians too- like i said, it is totally their choice- just like yours is yours. omnis can do what they want, in my books, too.

in the spirit of supporting individual choice, i hope you'll understand that i'm not 'getting at you' here, or trying to change your mind, and that you'll feel the same way in return. i'm just offering a different perspective.

i can relate to your choice, i used to eat dairy, and many of my friends and family eat dairy (actually, everybody i know in real life does)- and i'm ok with their educated choice to do so- its just not for me.

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AngelLargay

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jan 21, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodedclawjen

in the spirit of supporting individual choice, i hope you'll understand that i'm not 'getting at you' here, or trying to change your mind, and that you'll feel the same way in return. i'm just offering a different perspective.

*nods* And I'm grateful. Seriously. It's how I learn. Often when I'm talking to someone who has made a greater dedication to not using animals products than I, it feels not like a conversation - but a condemnation. Not a talk but a sermon. Not a chat but a sales pitch. Your post sounded nice.

Thank you.

Angel

VeggieFrank

· #4 · Jan 21, 2007

nice post, hoodedclawjen.

synergy

· #5 · Jan 21, 2007

I wish I could be as eloquent as Jen, but alas...

I'll just say that I agree with her, and I, in no way condemn those who eat dairy, or eggs, or even meat.

When I first became a vegatarian, I didn't even consider that eating eggs and dairy could be considered ethically wrong. I think I had heard of vegans, but I didn't really know the reason behind their philosophy.

Then I learned more about egg and diary production, and thought that, being vegan was still too hard, so I just made an effort to cut down on diary and eggs, and to choose organic when I could.

About six months after that, I had learned so much from being here and from reading other books, that I decided to give veganism a try. I lasted about 6 months and the call of the diary was too hard to ignore, so I went back to ovo-lacto vegn*sm, but I never felt comfortable eating eggs and dairy. I felt guilty, because I knew what I was doing, and still doing it anyway. My reasons for first going veg were mostly environmental, but then they shifted to a more wholistic, spiritual understanding, and eating eggs and dairy caused this uncomfortable state of cognitive dissonance for me.

I was doing it, but it went against the principles of Ahimsa (dynamic harmlessness) that I hold up as my ethical ideals.

I decided to go vegan again 21 days ago, and my soul feels lighter some how.

Angel, every vegetarian has their own reason, and their own journey.

If your reasons for your diet right now feel right for you, then that's great.

They may change over time, and with more experience.

Most peoples do.

Just make sure you listen to your heart.

Good luck on your journey.

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Sevenseas

· #6 · Jan 21, 2007

I'm confused by your post. Do you get your milk from some kind of Hare Krishna place where the cows die of old age, are not artificially inseminated etc.? If not and if you instead buy your dairy products from the store like most people, then the production of those products requires death (not to mention a lot of suffering), and people buying those products cause that death (and suffering) to occur.

Dairy producers are making their choices for you and others who buy dairy.

DieselAmy

· #7 · Jan 21, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngelLargay

For me to be able to eat meat, an animal must die. For me to eat eggs, an animal-to-be must cease the to-be part of that definition. Eggs, to my mind, are chicken abortions.

Actually, if the eggs are not fertilized (grocery store eggs aren't), nothing in the egg is dying when you eat it. It's just like a female human having a period and shedding the eggs that weren't used--it would never be a baby without fertilization.

For me, five months into being vegetarian, I'm comfortable enough. I had discomfort about the eggs/dairy portion enough to stop buying milk (switched to soy and I love it) and cut way back on eggs, only buying organic free range, and only for when I cook with them (not very often). I don't buy milk or eggs in restaurants either. But I have not stopped purchasing items made with these ingredients. I guess we have to each come to the place where we are comfortable, and that could evolve--next year I may go vegan, who knows.

Eclipse

· #8 · Jan 21, 2007

Not sure I fully understand your post. That's true that everyone makes their own choices and that's a good thing. We need to think for ourselves and question things.

Unless a method comes up of only producing female animals or there is a place that will take large amounts of steers and roosters, egg and dairy production always involves the death of the newly hatched/born male animals.

I find eating eggs a more accepetable choice ethically then drinking milk.

For starters: while the production of dairy requires the continued death of male offspring, in egg production it is a one time event at the hatchery. Eggs are not chicken abortions unless the egg has been fertilized.

Under ideal circumstances, hens raised for egg production can lead long happy lives. They will keep laying eggs until they die of old age. Taking their eggs away doesn't harm them.

In contrast, dairy cows even in ideal conditions are harmed by the act of taking the milk because it involves ripping away a newborn calf to obtain that milk. This leads to the ongoing killing of the cow's offspring.

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leapetra

· #9 · Jan 22, 2007

Depends where and who you buy your milk from.

I grew up on a small diary farm. You would take the calf away, but only when it was time to be weened anyway. And the milking is not suffering, any woman who has breastfed knows what's it like to go around full. Not fun.

But corporate farms don't think the same way. And if they are messing around with Bgh then you adding hormones that you do not need to your body.

Saying that I still eat dairy and eggs. But I make sure my dairy comes from dairies that do not use Bgh and support the family farms. If someone tells you you cannot taste the difference, believe me you can. Bgh treated dairy tastes flatter and blander too.

So if you want to stay with ovo-lacto, just be mindful of where you are getting your dairy and eggs from.

Family farms need to be supported.

The main reason why I am an ovo lacto is my family. They are willing to go vegetarian with me, but won't give up everything. Dairy and eggs are something we can agree with.

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lilac wine

· #10 · Jan 22, 2007

first, it is awesome that you are opposed to making food choices with lethal consequences!

of course no one but you can make choices about what you will and won't buy. you obviously have a strong sense of compassion and justice, so i hope that you will keep on learning with an open mind

one thing to be aware of is that in order for you to consume commercial dairy, animals must indeed be killed. without the killing of the mothers (once their production of milk declines) and their babies who exist as a necessary bi-product of their lactating due to pregnancy and birthing a calf in the first place to provide the milk, dairy would not be commercially viable. in other words, no matter what type of farm you buy from, you cannot purchase milk without animals having to die for it. Indeed, the veal industry exists as a result of the dairy industry, and about 40% of hamburger meat in the US is from slaughtered dairy cows.

for some more information on why this is the case, check out the following links:

http://www.peacefulprairie.org/outre...illMyBaby.html

http://www.peacefulprairie.org/outre...9;tKillMe.html

http://www.peacefulprairie.org/outre...neFarming.html

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leapetra

· #11 · Jan 22, 2007

I can state for a fact that our farm had no connection with the veal industry.

I raised too many calves myself, so that is why I know that.

So it does depend where you get it from.

If I want to make sure that my dairy is coming from a humane farm I should not be criticized for that decision.

meatless

· #12 · Jan 22, 2007

What happens to the cows when their production declines? Are they permitted to live out their natural lives until they die of old age?

Kaleigh

· #13 · Jan 22, 2007

2

I think that depends on the farm. Is it small and family owned (as mentioned in this post a few times thus far) or is a big factory farm. And thats not to say that the small farms will be all warm and fuzzy to the cows after they can no longer produce milk. I have a sneaky suspicion that they become meat. However, I am not 100% sure, soI would like to see someone elses input in this as well

I myself am working on excluding dairy and eggs, its just hard as a college student. That and I LOVE cheese

~Kaleigh

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lilac wine

· #14 · Jan 22, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by leapetra

I can state for a fact that our farm had no connection with the veal industry.

I raised too many calves myself, so that is why I know that.

and what ultimately happened to them? and to their mothers?

Quote:

If I want to make sure that my dairy is coming from a humane farm I should not be criticized for that decision.

my definition of "humane" excludes murder. if anyone can name a farm where the animals involved will never face an executioner, i'd love to have the name and phone number of the place.

Washoe

· #15 · Jan 22, 2007

Also, dont forget that in addition to ethical considerations, there are sound scientific reasons for practicing veganism. It is now becoming readily apparent that the composition of the bodys amino acid pool has a massive and profound impact on the mechanisms of genetic expression. Researchers can induce carcinomas in laboratory animals and turn them on and off at will by modifying the proteins which the animals ingest. They can send them into remission, bring them back, send them into remission, bring them back, send them into remission, bring them backon, off, on, off, on, off. And casein is the winner and champeen when it comes to inducing carcinomas. From a moral standpoint, I would rather eat a half pound of cheese than a half pound of salmon. But from a scientific standpoint, eating the salmon would be a far wiser choice.

vegzilla

· #16 · Jan 22, 2007

Other questions I would ask of dairy farms claiming to be humane:

- Were the cows artificially impregnated years before they would normally have their first calf? This is standard practice on dairy farms, because the farms are anxious to take the milk and start selling it as soon as possible.

- Are the calves able to stay with their mothers as long as they like (this could be years)? Do they get first dibs on milk, and are they able to have as much milk as they want?

- Decades of intensive breeding has resulted in much higher milk yields than found in nature; this is done for purely economic reason and is takes a toll on the cows' bodies; for one thing, modern dairy cows tend to lose calcium from being coerced into producing so much milk, starting early in life, and being almost constantly pregnant.

- How do the cows die? If they're killed in a slaughterhouse (none of which are humane), how are they transported?

There are ecological considerations, also. Cows are not native to the U.S. They tend to be voracious, indescriminate eaters and displace native flora and fauna, thereby contributing to the decline of genetic diversity. They also cause quite a bit of pollution.

One should not be criticized for wanting to find out if the dairy they eat was produced humanely. I just think you'll find that the answer will always be "no."

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vegzilla

· #17 · Jan 22, 2007

Kaleigh: good luck. I think you'll find that the craving for cheese quickly dissipates once you've been away from it for three months.

Irizary

· #18 · Jan 22, 2007

What is the name and contact info (you can find on the package) of the *commercial* dairy that does not take calves away from their mothers at or very soon after birth, and instead shares the milk with humans and calves?

Honestly I think you're ignorant about the commercial egg and dairy industries. Did you know that hens for egg farms are sexed after birth, and that for every hen produced a male chick is killed?

luv4all

· #19 · Jan 22, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAmy

Actually, if the eggs are not fertilized (grocery store eggs aren't), nothing in the egg is dying when you eat it. It's just like a female human having a period and shedding the eggs that weren't used--it would never be a baby without fertilization.

YES!!!!!!! I thought I was the only one who felt like this!!!!!!

I'm going to become an ovo(organic free range)-vegetarian... classifications be damned.

lilac wine

· #20 · Jan 22, 2007

since the egg is unfertilized, there's no "potential life" (fetus) who dies in the process of your consuming an egg. however, every egg you purchase does directly fund the slaughter of the hen who produced it as well the slaughter of baby male chicks born at the same hatchery where she was born.

This is NOT any different in the case of "free-range" or organic eggs; Buying commercial eggs, you pay for the killing of animals- period.

http://www.peacefulprairie.org/freerange1.html

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