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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jill View Post

one of my cats had a taste of my silk strawberry smoothie yesterday, from what i could tell she really liked it, and she is just fine.
It isn't hemlock. Eating a Big Mac isn't going to cause to you keel over and die just like that either. But its still unhealthy.

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ok this is the first I've heard of soy being bad for you...sorry but i think that is BS.
The problems with soy (and all legumes) have been well substantiated. The very fact that they are legumes is reason enough.
 

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Originally Posted by THX-1138 View Post

You weren't eating enough. A raw diet can and will work for everyone if done properly.
don't presume I don't know how to manage my diet.

I couldn't eat enough. I eat between 2000-2500 calories a day and couldn't get in enough calories unless I practically overdosed on nuts, which isn't healthy either, nor could I afford it.

again: everyone is different. what's right for you is not right for everyone.
 

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Originally Posted by VeggieVixen View Post

Ok... I guess I'll continue to feel my cat whatever I'm eating, but in very small amounts. I'm not too concerned about long-term effects since she's 18 years old and doesn't really have many years left anyway, but am more concerned with the short term. She doesn't seem to be in gastric distress from digesting these foods, so I guess she's alright. She does eat her regular meat cat food every day too, but for whatever reason is always interested in what I'm eating. My other cat is a true carnivore and couldn't care less about what I eat. Thanks everybody.
In my elder years I hope I get to eat whatever I want to as well. obviously you are a great cat mom so just keep doing what your doing.
 

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That's where fruit, saturated and monounsaturated fats come into play. Fruit is loaded with calories as are coconuts, avocadoes, pumpkin seeds, olive oil, durian, and so on. The nuts and seeds are polyunsaturated which should be limited, but you should go all out on the mono and saturated fats (as long as you're fulfilling your other needs).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by THX-1138 View Post

The problems with soy (and all legumes) have been well substantiated. The very fact that they are legumes is reason enough.
That is a rather circular argument!!!
My nutritionist also told me I *should* eat legumes-???


My cat Cu-be used to have a thing for raw tempeh. He would steal it off the counter & dig into it. He was haelthy until my $#@&*!! sisters had my cats euthanized when I was hospitalized 6 years ago (loooong story...)

I don't buy the anti-soy talk. Without soy, I couldn't be vegan, as I'd go insane on vegggies, grains & fruit alone. I love all soy products (organic of course) & will continue to eat them.

My current cat Hank has no interest in people food. She eats top-grade kibble (Wysong) & canned (Evolve/Solid Gold).
 

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Originally Posted by organica View Post

I don't buy the anti-soy talk. Without soy, I couldn't be vegan, as I'd go insane on vegggies, grains & fruit alone. I love all soy products (organic of course) & will continue to eat them.
Eating soy isn't vegan! Millions of animals each year are killed by soy bean combines! If you're doing it for your health, and the animals, then you wouldn't eat soy.
 

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"Steven Davis, a professor of animal science at Oregon State University [...] documented that a single operation, mowing alfalfa , caused a 50 percent reduction in the gray-tailed vole population. Mortality rates increase with every pass of the tractor to plow, plant, and harvest. Additions of herbicides and pesticides cause additional harm to animals of the field."

Source

The harvesting of soy is done by combine, so even if you refuse to realize the health issues you really need to take a look at the harm caused by the soy industry.

Since the soy issue is obviously more what everybody is interested in, I'm going to show a bit more evidence of its harms and explain the issues.

"Soybeans Also Contain Other Undesirable Chemicals:

* Potent enzyme inhibitors that block the action of trypsin, a digestive enzyme needed to digest proteins. This leads not only to chronic amino acid deficiencies but also to enlargement of the pancreas (in animals) and cancer.

* Hemaglutinin, which promotes the clumping of red blood cells. These clumped cells are less able to take up oxygen and carry it to body tissues. Hemaglutinin is also known to retard growth.

Fermentation reduces these harmful effects. Miso and tamari are fermented soy products.

On the other hand bean curd and tofu are made by precipitating soybean with either calcium sulphate or magnesium sulphate. Soy products made by this method are not as safe as the fermented products. Nevertheless, tofu accounts for some ninety percent of processed soybeans eaten in Asia today." Mercola.com [link to article]

Many people refer to the thousands of years of soy usage in Asia without really understanding the history. Soy was first used in the Chou Dynasty (around 1000 BC) but as far as we can tell it was only used as a rotational crop until 700 AD. The development of the fermentation process for soy during this time allowed for consumption of soy. Soy was used between useful crops to regenerate the nitrogen in the soil, but otherwise went unused. The situation in modern times was roughly the same, people had lots of soy on their hands with nothing to do with it. So things were developed to be done with all that soy, many of them quite useful. Unfortunately it was also used as animal feed. Do you know what happened then? The animals' health failed and people stopped buying so much soy to feed to their animals (even though it was the cheapest feed imaginable), so the industry turned in into a health food product for you all to buy instead. Soy can be safely consumed, but only if properly processed. It naturally contains many things which you do not want to be consuming in large quantities.

A few more points about some of the back and forth information on soy.

" o The cholesterol lowering research shows that cholesterol is lowered in 20 percent of the cases over the 350 level but not in people below 250. Almost anything other than lard will reduce cholesterol over 350 (unless the body is out of control and producing the cholesterol itself, in which case medication sometimes doesn't even work). You should try to keep your cholesterol in the 150 to 180 range (see your doctor).

o The claims about reducing breast cancer are based upon very slender research, namely a small select group of Japanese women, who are probably genetically not prone to breast cancer. The test needs to be performed upon women with a tendency toward or family history of breast cancer. Then see what soy does!

o Soybeans have a component which stimulates estrogen production (in both men and women) and most doctors don't recommend using estrogen in any form for people with a family history of breast cancer or fibroid tumors. A Report released this June states that women who take estrogen for more than ten years have an increased risk of breast cancer. A Yale physician specifically warned us off estrogen way back in the 1970's. Menopause is a poor time, because of the stress, to take soy as an estrogen replacement because the stress can trigger an allergy to soy (as more and more women are writing to us). See Developing a Soy Allergy below.

o Infertility. There should be an investigation of whether soy causes infertility in men (low sperm count) because of soy's estrogen stimulating properties. We suggest that males cut out soy for three months before trying to impregnate."

Japanese women would feed their husbands soy when they wished them to be infertile, how's that for some history in Asia.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataka View Post

"Steven Davis, a professor of animal science at Oregon State University [...] documented that a single operation, mowing alfalfa , caused a 50 percent reduction in the gray-tailed vole population. Mortality rates increase with every pass of the tractor to plow, plant, and harvest. Additions of herbicides and pesticides cause additional harm to animals of the field."
But wouldn't that be true for all vegetables? Should we not eat vegetables at all?
 

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I should have clarified that but the harvesting technique that is being called in to question here is the combine, which is a device used to harvest grain crops such as soybeans or wheat. So it applies to a variety of crops, but not vegetables. The argument it relates to, and which Davis is putting forth does have to do with all food harvesting in general though. The idea being to measure the collateral damage, if you will, to what are generally considered cruelty free crops. As yet there is not a lot of research into individual crops and all their side effects but wheat and soy are the big ones that have come to light so far.

After all this far flung discussion I'd just like to take a second and get back to the original point of this thread by saying to let your kitty have her treats, as long as she is happy and healthy. The point is that soy is not a healthy food as everyone seems to believe.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeggieVixen View Post

But wouldn't that be true for all vegetables? Should we not eat vegetables at all?
That's what I was going to say: all agriculture harms wildlife in some way unfortunately.

I am not prepared to forage in the woods for berries & acorns in order to feed myself.


I am going to chat with my nutritionist about this anti-soy talk. However I honestly have no idea what I'd do w/o soymilk & tofu.
 

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Okay, so now we've learned that all legumes are horribly bad for us
, and that no grains or harvested veggies of any kind are vegan.


Alrighty then... to each his own. You feed your cat salmonella and e-coli, and I'll stick with the vet approved stuff.
 

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WARNING... this post might be considered as having too much information....

I've been beaning out hugely since I started heading toward veganism over a decade ago, and the only problem I've had has been... errr, how to put it?... flatulence. And I don't know for sure if that's really gotten worse.

As for Professor Davis... his field is animal science, or something similar to that. My take on him is that he's grasping for reasons to perpetuate animal use. I did some googling around, and it is very unlikely that crops such as wheat or corn have a death toll anything like the alfalfa he reports in his paper. I don't have reliable information for rice or legume crops yet.

That's not to say that there are no animal deaths involved in large-scale production of vegan foodstuffs- there are, when you look at field equipment and poisons/traps used to control rodents in grain storage areas. But this issue is replacing protein deficiency as the most common myth about vegetarianism.
 

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Although I can see why tons of soy may not be good for cats and other carnivorous animals and, who knows, stuffing your face full of processed soy products 24/7 may not be the greatest thing for humans either, I think I'll go ahead and trust the Japanese on this one and consume my seitan, tofu and other bean curd-like products in moderation... since they usually have a pretty good idea of what they're talking about, especially if it's something they've been doing for thousands of years.
 

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To quote one of my previous posts in this thread:

Quote:
Fermentation reduces these harmful effects. Miso and tamari are fermented soy products.

On the other hand bean curd and tofu are made by precipitating soybean with either calcium sulphate or magnesium sulphate. Soy products made by this method are not as safe as the fermented products.
There are safe and healthy ways to consume soy. The proper processing, which is fermentation, (I'm against the processor of food in general but in this case it's actually necessary to make it edible) of soy removes 99% of the harmful components. I eat soy sauce which is properly made, and if I feel like having some miso or tamari I know that they are perfectly fine. Tofu on the other hand is not.

For hundreds of years in Japan, soy was used a rotational crop and consumed generally only by the poorest people. It took from 1000 BC until 700 AD for the fermentation process for soy to be developed, at which time it joined the ranks of good food.

You'll often hear the claims of soy and mainy soy products being used in Asia since around 1000 BC but the truth of the matter is that the only beans as crop date back to that time. They were used to replenish the fields of the actual crops, from all evidence nobody was actually eating them at that time. Then in 700 AD, the fermentation process arrived as I explained above. The first evidence of tofu isn't until 950 AD, and even assuming it took a lifetime or two to get mentioned and survive to this date that is still quite off the oft-quoted date. There was so much excess soy floating around of course they found something to do with it. Soy is not a great health food, and nobody started off thinking it was. It is only recently that people have been deluded into thinking it is.
 

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With regards to feeding cats a raw food diet...

http://www.rawfedcats.org/

http://cats.about.com/cs/nutrition/a/rawfooddiet.htm

http://www.barfworld.com/

Cats are carnivorous and should be treated as such. I have heard numerous veg*ns use biology to explain why humans should not eat meat... yet they are often the same ones feeding their carnivorous pets a vegan diet. Yes, you can probably supplement the bejesus out of a processed "natural" vegan pet food and think it healthy, but I don't personally feel one should be living life on supplements when health foods containing these nutrients are available. (In my humble opinon
)

Raw meat is not dangerous for cats... although it could potentially be for us humans. Their stomachs are designed to handle foods differently from us. Obviously, it is also important to use the same precautions you would use handling your own food... not to mention going organic and free-range where possible.

My cats' breeder has fed generations of cats on a raw food (meat) diet and has never had an issue with disease's many associate with raw meat. In fact, the company has received numerous accolades regarding the amazing health of their cats.
 

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Obligate carnivores.

Cats should NEVER be put on a completely vegetarian or vegan. They are OBLIGTE CARNIVORES, which means there are nutrients they nee to live that they can only get from meat. There was a recent case where a kitten almost died after being put on a vegan fiet. Cats cannot digest a lot of plant-based protein.
 
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