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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornernote View Post

1st, I am not putting you down. I own a car too.

2nd, sounds like the same reasons that my friend uses to justify eating meat (some reason about medical hoo-ha, and being almost impossible to find a plant-based alternative that he is not allergic to for whatever hoo-ha he has).
Why are you talking about your friend inventing medical reasons etc when you have just said he does not exist?
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
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What's your deal cornernote? What are you trying to justify to yourself with all this? Or do you really think we are all just riding our high horses and you have arrived to knock us down a few pegs by telling us things we've already heard one thousand and one times from every meat eater and hunter we've had the misfortune to encounter? I don't get it.
I haven't heard them. I am discussing and learning things that I have not thought a lot about before.

Did I really come off as trying to knock you down a few pegs? I'm really sorry if I did. It seems nomatter who I talk to about issues concerning morality I am always met with people telling me I am trying to be superior, or I am trying to put them down.

What did I write to imply you should be knocked down a few pegs?

Quote:
Why are you talking about your friend inventing medical reasons etc when you have just said he does not exist?
Never considered a hypothetical situation before? If you did, did everyone question the point of the situation? Usually its done as part of a learning process. Play out the scenario and consider aspects from different observers to reach some conclusion. Nobody is forcing you to participate, but I kindly ask that if you do not wish to participate, that you also not question the need to use hypothetical situations. I am willing to discuss this in another thread, but I think it is off-topic.

I am not pushing these thoughts down anyone's throat. If you want me to stop talking about situations that help me to find my own beliefs and conclusions then I will happily take my discussions elsewhere.
 

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cornernote, the reason many of us are a bit hostile to you when you lie about a "friend" is that you began the thread with a lie and that you're not the first person to pose these hypothetical scenarios. This isn't new to us. Most vegetarians and vegans have heard/read most of the things you're talking about. Kudos to you for doing so in a way that isn't the typical angry meat-eater style. But I think most here would have prefered total honesty.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
@ElaineV, thank you for pointing this out. I will try to be honest in future.

I think "lie" is a strong word. I did not do it in an attempt to deceive those who replied, but more in an effort to isolate something that is a particular concern for me on a moral level. It is much easier for me to consider morals in scenarios that have an isolated situation. Then as we discuss other external factors that may influence the moral decision, it becomes apparent why those factors may play the role they do.

As I have mentioned before there is no forum on this site to discuss things on a purely theoretical level which is why I post in the vegan thread. Please understand I am not here to judge other vegans. I simply want to improve my own moral beliefs with the help of other people who have already played out scenarios such as these.

I thank all those that offer their wisdom to my thoughts, and I am sorry to anyone who has been misled by my OP.
 

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I'm not trying to stifle you cornernote, and I don't feel particularly hostile, I just didn't understand your motivations. Perhaps your approach needs modifying? Then again, I tend to be more abrupt than most, so maybe I should take my own advice.
 

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It's important to take EVERYTHING involved into account. 'Global footprint' and 'food miles' calculations often leave out important energy inputs. For example, if your calculations of the impact of meat consumption fail to take into account waste processing/removal, transport from farm to slaughterhouse, transportation from slaughterhouse to processing plant or point of sale, the refrigeration needed at various points, etc ...

Interestingly, one common argument against locavorism and in favor of a large centralized corporate model relies on the often incomplete nature of food mile calculations. According to this view (which I actually disagree with) the statement "[the person who] consumes animal products from local, organic, "humane" farms etc is doing much less damage than the person that consumes animal products from McDonald's, Tyson, and Dean Foods" is incorrect. Those large corporate interests, having well maintained fleets of vehicles and moving large quantities at once, may actually use less energy per pound of meat transported 1,000 miles than a small outfit with fewer resources to maintain equipment which only transports small quantities uses per pound of meat transported 20 miles.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainforests1 View Post

I don't come here very often, but doing a google search I came across this:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2748222/posts
They estimate 32 trillion insects are killed by the automobile per year just in the United States. Obviously this could be way off but without question it does cause a lot of suffering. It should be taken into account as well.
This is too much of an estimate to be quoted, in my opinion. I don't doubt that it's probably an astronomical number, but the Netherlands and the UK are at differing latitudes as the US and have differing population densities. I'm not a biologist, but it would surely seem that geography and climate would play a great deal of importance on density of insects intersecting with the frequency of traveled roads in populated areas.
 

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I have no problem with your posts, OP, but yeah it may be the wrong forum for finding people interested in discussing what you want to discuss. Maybe the compost heap would be better.

Personally, I don't just look at things in terms of lives saved vs lives lost. I don't find polluting and contributing to the death of an animal at some point in the future nearly as bad as paying animals to be tortured for a life time and then killed. I can agree neither is a good thing, though.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornernote View Post

@ElaineV, thank you for pointing this out. I will try to be honest in future.

I think "lie" is a strong word. I did not do it in an attempt to deceive those who replied, but more in an effort to isolate something that is a particular concern for me on a moral level. It is much easier for me to consider morals in scenarios that have an isolated situation. Then as we discuss other external factors that may influence the moral decision, it becomes apparent why those factors may play the role they do.

As I have mentioned before there is no forum on this site to discuss things on a purely theoretical level which is why I post in the vegan thread. Please understand I am not here to judge other vegans. I simply want to improve my own moral beliefs with the help of other people who have already played out scenarios such as these.

I thank all those that offer their wisdom to my thoughts, and I am sorry to anyone who has been misled by my OP.
You intentions are noted and apologies accepted, but it might be wise to contemplate about how your intentions are nearly irrelevant when the effect is the same. People were told untruths and consequently they feel manipulated.

Moreover, you seem to assume that these issues have not been discussed on VB before. Please try using the search function.
Here are some threads that address some of the issues you've been bringing up here and in your other two "theoretical" threads...

On cars and the environment:
http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/sh...-v.-Vegetarian
http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/sh...global-warming
http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/sh...tally-Friendly
http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/sh...ironment.-quot

On honey, sugar, trace animal ingredients:
http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/sh...-of-honey-here
http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/sh...-feel-about-it
http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/sh...animal-product
http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/sh...-Beegans-unite!
http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/sh...ct-vegetarians
http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/sh...p?129849-Sugar
http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/sh...What-do-you-do

On the definition of vegan and self-identity:
http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/sh...-a-competition
http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/sh...r-to-omnivores
http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/sh...-Unhappy-Vegan

On hypothetical scenarios to determine ethics:
http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/sh...rolley-dilemma

Terms you may want to use to search: honey, sugar, bon-char, elitism, beegan, identity, purity, hypothetical, ethics, morality...

You've said that "there is no forum on this site to discuss things on a purely theoretical level" but in fact there is an animal rights/welfare forum where theory is very often discussed. And the vegan forum is adequate for discussing vegan theory as well. Like SomebodyElse said, the Compost Heap would work, too.

So... if you have a geniune question about veganism, perhaps its better to simply ask it than to create fictions and mislead people. Many people here are very willing to help you answer all your questions.
 

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Environmentally speaking - don't factory farms create more pollution than all the cars in the world?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornsail View Post

If we never discussed things that had been discussed before would anyone ever post?
That's not my point. My point was about how cornernote was acting like he had to create these imaginary friends in order to bring up topics because there was no other way. So I showed that other people have talked about these issues without involving imaginary friends.

And also, if he's truly interested in these topics, there's plenty of reading to do on the subject. I gave him a few things to look over.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElaineV View Post

That's not my point. My point was about how cornernote was acting like he had to create these imaginary friends in order to bring up topics because there was no other way. So I showed that other people have talked about these issues without involving imaginary friends.
Doesn't look like it wasn't your point when you said "Moreover, you seem to assume that these issues have not been discussed on VB before. Please try using the search function".

Also he/she already apologized about the friend thing. I don't see any reason to make a big thing about it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbitLuvr View Post

Apology or no, I no longer trust anything written in any of cornerstone's threads.
Well I'm not asking you to. One can have negative feelings about a poster without making them the topic of his/her threads.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
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Originally Posted by RabbitLuvr View Post

Apology or no, I no longer trust anything written in any of cornerstone's threads. It could all be made up for the purpose of a philosophical debate. I would feel differently if it had been presented as such from the beginning. (Though these sorts of things do tend to be hypotheticals, the Stupid Things Omnis Say thread proves that they happen in real life, too.)
That would imply you trusted me to begin with. I would recommend not to trust people unless you know them very closely, and even still you should do your own research.

Also, I'm not sure I was posting "facts" that I was insisting you "trust". Its a point of view.
 
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