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Originally Posted by cornernote View Post

I think there is misunderstanding in the ways in which animals die by our cars.

Animals who are exploited for oil to drive cars often literally suffer to death.
Animals who are hit by cars often literally suffer to death.
Animals who are exploited for oil to drive cars are often killed in ways that are just as intentional, preventable, and most importantly, painful.

Also, there is no unit of measure for any of these things so comparing if cars or meat causes more harm in ways that is preventable or painful is not productive.

I agree with where you are coming from, but I disagree with the logic you used to get there.
What do you mean by 'animals exploited for oil'? Are we talking habitat loss; death in machinery; animals being killed and some part of them being used to produce oil; 'pest' animals killed by oil companies in or around their facilities; animal slave labor; animal testing in oil refining? In what way are they exploited, specifically?

Also, When ElaineV said that animals "suffer to death" I tool it to mean from birth until slaughter their life is a constant and unending torture that stops only when they eventually die due to their conditions or are killed for food. An animal being hit by a car is involved in an accident, and while it could be painful (horribly, horribly painful - I'm not trying to lessen that) and fatal, it is not a lifetime of suffering until early death. Saying that someone in an accident "suffers to death" in the same way that animals involved in factory farm agriculture do is... nonsensical. Their suffering comes from the accident that causes their death, it's not a life so full of suffering that eventually it kills them.

I'm not arguing in favor of cars, btw, cars can just suck it, but I disagree with your reasoning.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornernote View Post

Ok, I see. The fact that they were "born by our hand to die by our hand". I think I am understanding that that is the key in the usage of the word exploit.

I will ponder some more. Thanks again.
Hmmm... I wouldn't say that about the word exploit. Exploitation is using someone/something for the benefit of the user. So animals killed to produce something would be exploitation (though I don't know that that happens in oil production), but accidental deaths due to machinery is not exploitation, because they are not using the animals. Animal testing is exploitation (I don't know if that happens in oil production), but habitat loss is not (though I would say the user is exploiting the land).

Exploitation isn't always horrifying suffering like factory farming either. People could exploit their kids for profit by getting them into show business or something (just an example, they could also be getting their kids into show business because they care about them and their future or because the kid really wants to and the parents are being supportive) In this situation the exploited kid could be just as happy as the non-exploited kid, but they are still being exploited. Exploitation is a matter of use.

Extermination is really ****ing bad, but it's not exploitation. Slave labor is exploitation (I don't think animal slave labor happens in oil production either).

So, while I really don't know all the processes that are involved in the production and refinement of oil, I don't think animals are actually exploited.

That's not to say they aren't harmed. Just just like in agriculture, animals are harmed and killed in the production of grains, fruits and vegetables, but they are exploited in the production of eggs, meat and dairy products. We may be saddened by the harm, but what vegans actually avoid is the exploitation.

But still, I'm not saying that it's 'okay' to drive, I don't think it is (but I'm not gonna push that on anybody, cars and driving are inextricably linked to our way of life, despite all our apparent choices often it seems we have very few), but I think it's a separate issue from veganism.
 
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