Buying a farm

soilman · Nov 25, 2006

We have 
1. investors and can buy a 10 acre farm. 
2. farming skills 
3. bookkeeping education and skills 
4. books on the subject of business planning and the ability to learn business planning and I will be able to get help with this from a New York State small business group. I am familiar with Financial statements and can learn about proforma operating statements. 
We need 
1. to locate and buy suitable land 
2. find someone with produce-marketing skills 
The plan now is to buy land that has been fallow for awhile and does not have a history of industry on it, or abusive farming practices, including excessive use of animal waste, since that could have left heavy metals and soil pathogens. Structures on the land are optional. It may be best to custom-build energy-efficient structures but I will not rule out buying land with a house or tool-sheds already on it.

Ludi · Nov 26, 2006

That's fantastic! It shouldn't be too hard to find 10 acres, though you could certainly do with much less for a commercial farm. 
What region are you looking to buy in?

soilman · Nov 26, 2006

East Tennesee Western North Carolina -- Smokey Mountain Region 
Former tobacco farms? 
I am having a great deal of difficulty learning about how to buy farmland and how to make sure it is good land. I am not finding this at all easy. It is different than buying land for other commercial uses. According to what i've been reading recently, banks charge higher rates for farming and other land uses that don't involve the building of structures that greatly increase the property's value. There is pressure to convert existing farmland to anything else but farming, before banks will easily invest in it. Fortunately I have private investors, who want to have a farm because they know that food is more important than money, but I still will have to involve banks.

GhostUser · Nov 27, 2006

Sounds sort of like a commune. Good luck.

Ludi · Nov 27, 2006

What you might try doing is looking at some listings for land in the region you're interested in, then try to zero in to a county. Then you might be able to get a county land map from the county extension service or Soil Conservation Service. This will tell you where the good land is in that county. Get a county road map also, so you can locate the listed properties on the map. 
For a general sense of land prices in that region, you can search online. 
Let me know if I can give any other help/advice.

soilman · Nov 27, 2006

SotallyTober "Sounds sort of like a commune. Good luck." 
I don't see how anything I said even remotely hints at this being sort of like a commune. 
My preliminary concept is a plain ordinary business, competitive toe to toe, with similar businesses, only leaving out the animal products. Conventional farming doesn't necessarily use animal products anyway. Just lots of plant food, and insecticides which are made from natural gas, rocks, petroleum, coal, and air. To this I want to add "vegan flavor elements": vegetable-origin compost and green manures -- which improve plant flavor and, furthermore, compost made in wood bins results in better-tasting plants than compost made in animal gastro-intestinal systems. That might be our motto and our sales pitch. Why? Different micro-organisms in the 2 different compost bins. Metabolic products of the organisms are taken up thru the plants roots and flavor the plants. Thus the soil ecology can flavor the plant as well as affect its nutrients. For 100's of years many growers have preferred cow feces to pig feces for this very reason. Today, we can eliminate feces altogether. They spread pathogens, anyway. 
Plus of course cover crops to prevent soil erosion and also serve as green manures. Plus of course I want to use all the pesticide-minimizing techniques that cooperative extension can clue us in to. I want us to be a good neighbor and minimize environmental damage, but I have no inclination to stick to a "organically grown produce" model. 
That said, I would like to live in an extended family or "tribe" but that does not necessarily have anything to do with the farming business.

soilman · Nov 27, 2006

"What you might try doing is looking at some listings for land in the region you're interested in, then try to zero in to a county... For a general sense of land prices in that region..." 
I haven't been having too much look finding decent listings, certainly not free ones. I have found wildly varying prices per acre. 
check out <a href="http://www.loopnet.com/xNet/MainSite/Listing/Search/SearchResults.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.loopnet.com/xNet/MainSite...chResults.aspx</a> 
They have 2 listings. They want a subscription (money) to show me more listings.

Ludi · Nov 27, 2006

Here are some listings in Tenn. giving town and county: <a href="http://www.tn-realestate.net/mllistings/land.html" target="_blank">http://www.tn-realestate.net/mllistings/land.html</a> 
Land closer to town will typically be much more expensive per acre. Larger parcels of land will be cheaper per acre than smaller parcels, but may be more expensive in total than smaller parcels. For a commercial vegetable farm its important to be close to town or on a main road between towns. Andy Lee gives more specifics in his book "Backyard Market Gardening" and Eliot Coleman describes the "perfect" veg farm property in "The New Organic Grower."

kpickell · Nov 27, 2006

Who is "we"? How many people do you have ready to move to Tennessee and work on this farm? Sounds like a good idea. Maybe the investors would pay for you to take a weekend trip out there so you can scout the lands in person.

soilman · Nov 27, 2006

I've taken a look at the listings you linked to Ludi. I'm finding them a bit confusing. First, under "acres" <a href="http:/L" target="_blank">this one</a> says 119.35 M/L. I don't know what M/L means. It makes no sense to put a further modification after you've already said "acres." If that is 120 acres -- 18 million dollars sounds awfully high for Pigeon Forge (pretty much the middle of nowhere - 10 miles from Gatlinburg and Smokey Mountain National park). That is about $150,000 per acre (all land, no structures) for possibly quite mountainous land. Gatlinburg is small tourist town. Makes no sense. 
I have "the New organic Grower" and it is not all that useful. It has some good tips for growing, and few tips for buying land -- less for buying land. And it is not exactly anywhere near a comprehensive guide to either. 
It is also a lot of gas -- large print with lots of white space around it and unnecessary illustrations and lots of "gas" in the text -- entertaining conjecture that doesn't really provide practical gardening knowledge.

soilman · Nov 27, 2006

kpickel I have someone who is willing to put up a lot of money for a downpayment on property, and to buy equipment. I don't have anyone who definitly wants to do farmwork, just 2 maybes. I have noone willing to help me with the howtos of buying land except Ludi. And I am having a lot of trouble. The pages Ludi sent me to arent making sense to me. I wonder if there is an article in Consumer Reports about buying farmland? Probably not as they are family-consumer oriented, not business oriented.

kpickell · Nov 27, 2006

I did a google search and M/L appears to stand for "More or Less". So the acres listed is a close approximation but not exact. Pigeon Forge is not in the middle of nowhere, it's a booming, booming town and is beating out Gatlinburg for tourists lately. It's also home to Dollywood. We go there on vacation quite often, and I've been amazed at how fast it's grown. It's not surprising to see a high dollar value there because of the potential to turn the land into business property.

Ludi · Nov 27, 2006

I never claimed "The New Organic Grower" is a comprehensive guide, merely that it contains information. 
That's the end of my help for you soilman. We've been through this crap over books before, and I'm tired of it. 
Find your help somewhere else. I might have been willing to help you more, even suggest more books, but you'd probably just ***** about them. 
So, someone else who has bought land can help you. I've already lost patience, having given you plenty of chances not to criticise my suggestions as you';ve done before. Why I keep giving you another chance, I don't know. I guess I don't learn my lesson any better than you learn yours.

Eclipse · Nov 28, 2006

This sounds like a huge undertaking. Relocating ( across country, you're in CA right?) and starting a business at the same time. I understand you like me are trying to find a way to earn money with your natural talents and existing skills. 
I would suggest that you contact people directly who are running small farms. If you were local, I could give you some leads and you could go there directly. 
For instance, there is the Burley farm: The Burley farm raises vegetables, dairy goats and meat cows. They operate with having people buy shares ahead of time and have a public building on their property. 
You can drive there, purchase the vegetables or there are baskets arranged for people who prepay with names on them.

holly golightly · Nov 28, 2006

Wow... a commune!

bekajoi · Nov 28, 2006

I'm not sure I'd call it a commune so much as an "intentional community". <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/wink3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="

"> I think it is a great idea! And I'd have no idea where to start with helping you look, but wish you the best of luck! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="

">

soilman · Nov 28, 2006

No. Not a commune. Not an intentional community. Just a farm. Period. 
Stop repeating the same misinformation over and over again right after I inform y'all that it is misinformation.

soilman · Nov 28, 2006

"For a commercial vegetable farm its important to be close to town or on a main road between towns." 
No it is not. I just saw some frozen edamame grown and packed in China, frozen green beans grown and packed in France, fresh, field grown tomatoes grown in Mexico, chestnuts from Italy, canteloupes from california, watermelons from N. Carolina, fresh grapes grown in Chile, boiled down cane juice from el Salvador, fresh carrots and radishes from Florida, and lettuce from California -- all simple agricultural products and all in the same store. 
Also, I want to market vegan products to vegans and non-vegans, but esp to vegans, but I won't find enough vegans "near" any farm, to market to. Not even if the farm is near NYC.

bekajoi · Nov 28, 2006

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by soilman <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a> 
No. Not a commune. Not an intentional community. Just a farm. Period. 
Stop repeating the same misinformation over and over again right after I inform y'all that it is misinformation.</div>
</div>
 
A rose by any other name.... 
All I'm saying is it sounds like you'd be in charge, but otherwise it sounds like it is a group of people living together, working together, for a common goal. And to ME, that sounds like all the intentional communities I've heard of/seen. 
It's not a bad thing. Perhaps you just don't want to lable it. Perhaps you don't like the name. But that IS what it sounds like/appears to be to many of us. No offense, certainly wasn't meant to be demeaning....

Eclipse · Nov 28, 2006

Um no, in a commune people live together as well as work together. 
If the people drive to the farm, work and leave, then it's not a commune. 
Because my mom was into that sort of thing, I used to get dragged to them a few times. 
I havn't yet seen anything in Soilmans' post to indicate a real commune, which would also involve some sort of housing for residents. Hiring farm workers/employees does not make a commune.

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