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I actually finally got this argument from someone the other day. Started using over population of deer as an example. I was at a loss other than to say, "Well Factory Farming grossly overproduces cattle to satisfy high demand. If the demand wasn't there, they wouldn't produce as much." He says, "Well, deer over produce and if we didn't hunt they would over-populate. If people didn't eat meat, we would have a couple of cows grazing in this front yard." I just kind of grimaced and said, "I disagree." I'm sure there was a more articulate way of putting my point across. Opinions?
 

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Nature has its' own ways to regulate animal populations.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Envy View Post

Nature has its' own ways to regulate animal populations.
This.

Also, sadly, modern cows only exist to be slaughtered by humans. The less meat we eat the less cows would be bred slowly over time. The scenario your friend mentioned could only happen if everyone magically turned vegetarian tomorrow and released all the cows into the forest. That's probably not going to happen...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Werewolf Girl View Post

This.

Also, sadly, modern cows only exist to be slaughtered by humans. The less meat we eat the less cows would be bred slowly over time. The scenario your friend mentioned could only happen if everyone magically turned vegetarian tomorrow and released all the cows into the forest. That's probably not going to happen...
Si.
 

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Quote:
"If people didn't eat meat, we would have a couple of cows grazing in this front yard."
"I know someone who has released all their brain cells into the wilderness, but I'm not going to say who that person is (*psst* it's you)"
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Werewolf Girl View Post

This.

Also, sadly, modern cows only exist to be slaughtered by humans. The less meat we eat the less cows would be bred slowly over time. The scenario your friend mentioned could only happen if everyone magically turned vegetarian tomorrow and released all the cows into the forest. That's probably not going to happen...
Oooo that's such a nice thought
Utopia!
 

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For deer:
- deer can self-regulate to give birth to fewer fawns when food is scarce.

- humans are the main culprit that upsets the balance of nature by removing natural predators such as wolves and mountain lions. We have not learnt to live with nature so it's best to not meddle with nature further with our unnatural solutions which only benefit a small population of hunters and the hunting industry.

- state wildlife management agencies intentionally keep the deer population high for hunters. They're trying to create a hunting industry which is unnecessary and dangerous for the community living in the hunting areas.

For the cows... they helped take care of the grass in the yard. No need to bother mowing his lawn. We wouldn't have this problem had we not domesticated wild cattle that tend to stay away from human population. And why live in a world without animals coming near us? It's dung is rich in minerals. Isn't it nice these animals transport natural fertilizers and drop it in our yard which we can pick up and fertilize our plants and crops?

Most people I come across are not very serious about knowing the logic of not eating cows so I just flood them with some of the arguments above so that they don't know how to respond to it. It may sound like a joke but it's very effective for me
 

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"But where would all the cows go if we didn't eat them...???"

Best answered with a simple question imho ...

"Where would all the cows come from if we let you eat the current batch but let you breed no more?"

Beef cattle are slaughtered at 2 years old max and dairy cattle by about the age of 6. A 'wind down' period of allowing omnis to do exactly what they do anyway avoids any premature slaughter and brings the whole cycle to an end within 6 years at most.

That wind down period does not involve one single premature slaughter nor the release of one single cow into the wild.

The omni argument in play here is a version of the 'Nirvana' fallacy, btw.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Arg. I'm reading over this thread again (I broke my smartphone, therefore internet usage was limited considering my boyfriend works from home and when I'm home from work or play or whatever, and he's not working, needless to say I don't want to be in the office hanging on the internet when I could be spending time with him....etc etc...sorry for too much explanation lol) and I am amazed by people's lack of forethought. Or thought of certain things in general. Had I not had so much bourbon during the course of the conversation in question, I would have had a more convincing argument than "cattle are overproduced because of high demand." Factory farmed cattle are produced period because of any demand. Clueless Git, you are right 100%! We quit doing the whole factory farming crap, and where are cows going to come from? And that raises another (possible ignorant-sounding) question from me. Are there free roaming cattle? I know there are wild horses, but cows? I can't say I have ever heard of such a thing.
 

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This is such a silly argument! a) Nature will regulate overpopulation in its own way. We are not necessary controls. b) Most people eat disgusting factory farmed cows! Pretty sure we aren't going to have an overpopulation of cows.

To be honest, if a cow meandered into my front yard and started eating my grass I'd probably be pretty excited and think it was really cute. I wouldn't panic over population. Though I'd probably not be happy about cow-pies.
 

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The meat eating humans and the cows would trade places. The Humans stay in feed lots and the cows can wonder in and out of the humans houses and in their yards. The cows will even cut the grass. The Humans can watch current hit TV shows at the feed lot, so I doubt they're notice much difference in their lives.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empty_Shell View Post

The meat eating humans and the cows would trade places. The Humans stay in feed lots and the cows can wonder in and out of the humans houses and in their yards. The cows will even cut the grass. The Humans can watch current hit TV shows at the feed lot, so I doubt they're notice much difference in their lives.
Such a great mental image, thanks for the laugh.
 

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Doe anyone know anything about the average number of pregnancies a dairy cow has in her lifetime vs. number that a cow in the wild has? That may be a good arguing point.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clueless Git View Post

"But where would all the cows go if we didn't eat them...???"

Best answered with a simple question imho ...

"Where would all the cows come from if we let you eat the current batch but let you breed no more?"
This. But even if we didn't salughter them, the cows would only exist for the longest natrual lifespan of a cow. They wont over populate because they are kept by humans, and bred by humans, and therefore whether they breed or not is completly within our control.

I don't know why this person either thinks we're going to keep breeding them, or just release cows and bulls into the wild.
 

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When I was a kid, I spent a lot of time in Alaska (my stepdad was a commercial fisherman). While there we would stay at a fairly isolated town, during which time we would get the bulk of our food from hunting. Even as a young (under 10 when I killed my first moose) carnivorous kid, I got pretty pissed off (which is extremely rare for me, I simply don't get angry, ever) when I found out my stepfather would sometimes take part in wolf hunts, which to my knowledge still happens regularly today for a number of reasons. I think VB's favorite politician, Sarah Palin, has even mentioned and endorsed the practice. They do this for a number of reasons, one of them being to keep the moose and caribou populations stable.

Without this intervention, they are in a continual balancing act where the wolves reproduce like crazy until the moose/caribou population diminishes to the point where the wolves begin to starve, then the wolves start to die off as the moose/caribou population shoots way up as a result of the diminished wolf population. This teeter totter effect is not good for hunting tourism, which is huge. Though largely as a result of the wolf hunts, there has been numerous tourism (conventional tourism, not hunting) boycotts. My stepfather tried to explain to me that it was better for both of them, because it A: prevented the wolves from facing starvation and B: prevented thousands of animals from getting killed by overpopulating wolves... but I've always been an evolutionist. This is not merely how nature controls the population, it is also how nature makes sure that those who do survive do so because they are the strongest. With this intervention, we remove that survival of the fittest factor, which is a crucial component in the long term survival of any species.

Well... ALMOST any species.

And that brings us to livestock, which differs from wild animals because it's evolution occurs in quite a different manner. For animals like cows and chickens, the ones who are selected to reproduce are the ones who are easily contained, don't run away even when they see others killed, aren't too active and are thus easier and cheaper to fatten up, and are pretty much incapable of surviving on their own. In other words, the ones who would be most likely to survive in the wild are the ones who are filtered out by this artificial backwards evolutionary process. In that regards, they are right. Without us, they may very well die off. And I'm okay with that. We don't exactly have a good record when it comes to managing nature and natural resources, so I'd say great, stop eating them anyway and let nature do it's thing.
 

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Well, it does all beg the question of what would happen to the livestock populations if everyone became vegan overnight? It would probably be a painful process of the populations readjusting to normal, as there would be a lot of competition for resources, but thankfully it really wouldn't threaten the existence of that many species. At least not on land anyway, as all of the land animals and most of the sea animals commonly eaten by humans are herbivores. Population readjustment would probably happen quickly however, as many animals in captivity lose the ability to fend for themselves once released into the wild.
 

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Let's say you release a million cows into the wild. The first thing to happen would be a surge in the population of carnivorous animals that would likely prey on them, from mountain lions to vultures. As the cow population dwindled, which would likely happen very quickly since they are basically incapable of defending themselves, the carnivores that had been feeding on them would begin facing starvation, and the strongest and most capable cows that were still alive would begin reproducing. Ultimately, the populations would balance out, and they would either work their way back into the wild or become extinct.
 

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~
 

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Someone once asked me this. My response was, "the same thing that happened to horses when we started using cars."

Also, it would be pretty surprising if the population went veg*n fast enough to make surplus livestock an actual problem.
 
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