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So, I have a few questions about vitamin b12. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br>
1) Where to herbivorous animals get b12, since they don't take supplements?<br>
2) I've heard that there were vegans ever since the creation of humans, since they didn't have supplements, where did they get b12?<br>
3) I constantly get "supplements aren't natural". Are there any counter arguments for this other than what they're doing isn't natural either?<br>
4) Are there any reliable vegan sources of b12 that we just don't eat enough?<br><br>
Thanks for taking time to look at this. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/grin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":D">
 

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Jack Norris is a cofounder of Vegan Outreach. He is a registered dietitian and became one to specifically study vegan nutrition issues. He regularly reads all of the nutrition journals and he has a book coming out this summer. This article at this URL will tell you everything you ever wanted to know about vitamin b-12. You will no longer have to depend on others for information or be vulnerable to them giving you misinformation:<br><br><br><a href="http://veganhealth.org/articles/vitaminb12" target="_blank">http://veganhealth.org/articles/vitaminb12</a><br><br><br>
FWIW, b-12 supplements are made by allowing bacteria to ferment. That is at least as natural as eating vegetables in January that don't grow in your area that time of year.<br><br>
Modern food processing places a very strong emphasis on cleanliness and safety. That emphasis prevents a lot of food borne illness, but it also makes most food an unreliable source of b-12.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Bluejeans84</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2880261"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
3) I constantly get "supplements aren't natural". Are there any counter arguments for this other than what they're doing isn't natural either?</div>
</div>
<br>
To my understanding, the rational behind this is that our knowledge of nutrition is very limited as of right now, and therefore we should consume foods in their natural state, because if we rely entirely on supplements to compensate for our processed foods diet, than we may not be getting some nutrient/other factor within natural food that we are entirely unaware of.<br><br>
At least, that was the rational written within <i>The China Study</i>, however, Colin Campbell (or his son, whichever wrote the specific section of the book I'm referencing) did recommend that vegans take B12 supplements. However, that book also cited research done, showing that the effects of Fiber were null and void when taken through supplements, vs consumed from fruits and vegetables.<br><br>
If this is indeed the rational being used against you, then I doubt taking supplements for one specific nutrient (especially one that is very specific in terms of where it's found in nature) would really cause you to be lacking something else, whatever that something else may be.<br><br>
To be honest though, from reading both the article the person above me linked, as well as personal experience with vitamins, and hearing other people talk about it, supplements, despite being "processed", can make a big difference.<br><br>
For example, my dad was talking about how as soon as he started taking B6 supplements, he had dramatically more energy. Of course at the time, I told him how it would probably be better if he just ate a handful of cashews (since that was what T. Colin Campbell recommended in his book), but honestly, I really don't think it matters. Especially since I noticed myself having more energy after consuming a modicum of fortified B12 foods.
 

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The only information I have to share is that nutritional yeast can provide B12 - but not all nutritional yeast contains B12. You must make sure it does (check the label). It is considered a whole food, which you can digest and absorb easily. Other B vitamins (such as B3 and B6) fight for absorption by your body.<br><br>
No plant based foods contain B12. It is derived from meat or bacteria. Nutritional yeast is derived from bacteria and is considered vegan. You can store up to 5 years worth of B12 before you are depleted.<br><br>
That's all I know. I hope it helps.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">1) Where to herbivorous animals get b12, since they don't take supplements?</div>
</div>
<br>
their poop
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>SwissMiss</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2880943"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
their poop</div>
</div>
<br>
I'm not an expert, but I don't think that is true. Only a few herbivorous animals eat their poo.
 

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My tortoises do <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br>
but here is a little info I found on the other animals, seems like many can produce it themselves.<br><br><a href="http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/animal" target="_blank">http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/animal</a>
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Bluejeans84</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2880261"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
So, I have a few questions about vitamin b12. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br>
1) Where to herbivorous animals get b12, since they don't take supplements?</div>
</div>
<br>
A little can apparently be obtained from eating exclusively unwashed vegetable matter that is "contaminated" with dirt containing B12 from the bacteria in the soil. (Note: This is not a solution for humans for several reasons.) Some animals have intestines were the B12-producing bacteria thrive and are able to absorb this B12 from there.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">2) I've heard that there were vegans ever since the creation of humans, since they didn't have supplements, where did they get b12?</div>
</div>
<br>
I think that's largely a vegan myth.<br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">3) I constantly get "supplements aren't natural". Are there any counter arguments for this other than what they're doing isn't natural either?</div>
</div>
<br>
Yes: "So what?" "Natural" isn't always what is best for us. And what are the criteria for something to be "natural" anyway? We just have to realise that whether something is said to be "natural" does not necessarily tell us whether it's enviro-friendly, animal-friendly, or healthy.<br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">4) Are there any reliable vegan sources of b12 that we just don't eat enough?</div>
</div>
<br>
Yes, vegan supplements and fortified foods <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p">
 

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My understanding is that the soil used to grow food plants used to contain B-12 in sufficient amounts, but it's since been stripped of most nutrients.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Bluejeans84</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2880261"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
1) Where to herbivorous animals get b12, since they don't take supplements?</div>
</div>
<br>
Depends on the species. Some don't need dietary sources of B12.<br>
What does it matter? We're not them; they're not us.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Bluejeans84</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2880261"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
2) I've heard that there were vegans ever since the creation of humans, since they didn't have supplements, where did they get b12?</div>
</div>
<br>
Early humans didn't live very long due to many factors. Most likely, if there were vegans since early times, some had B12 deficiencies. It's just that nutritional deficiencies weren't a big deal back then given that humans just didn't live all that long.<br>
Moreoever, there's some reason to believe that B12 could be obtained from plant sources if the soil weren't as degraded as most soil is now-a-days. That's just a theory and I wouldn't hang my hat on it, but it makes some sense.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Bluejeans84</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2880261"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
3) I constantly get "supplements aren't natural". Are there any counter arguments for this other than what they're doing isn't natural either?</div>
</div>
<br>
Using the natural human tendancy for curiousity (science) combined with the natural human tendancy for empathy and compassion is what has resulted in B12 supplements and foods fortified with B12. <b>It's only natural to use our gifts of reason/logic and compassion/love to choose vegan.</b><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Bluejeans84</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2880261"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
4) Are there any reliable vegan sources of b12 that we just don't eat enough?</div>
</div>
<br>
I don't personally think so. <b>I choose to consume fortified foods and I feed fortified foods to my family.</b>
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Bluejeans84</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2880261"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
So, I have a few questions about vitamin b12. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br>
1) Where to herbivorous animals get b12, since they don't take supplements?</div>
</div>
<br>
From what I've read, most herbivores and most animals in general have B12 already growing and multiplying in their gut. Humans are one of the few species who can't actually absorb this because it's too far down in our intestines, but many other species can.<br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">2) I've heard that there were vegans ever since the creation of humans, since they didn't have supplements, where did they get b12?</div>
</div>
<br>
That sounds like an exaggeration or downright lie to me. This is the kind of propoganda that hurts the vegan movement more than it helps. For all known intents and purposes, what we call veganism is a relatively recent social phenomenon that solidified in its current form in the 1940's. There have been sects of humans who eat very few animal products for centuries, but that's not the same as being vegan.<br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">3) I constantly get "supplements aren't natural". Are there any counter arguments for this other than what they're doing isn't natural either?</div>
</div>
<br>
From Jack Norris' website:<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">To be truly healthful, a diet must be best not just for individuals in isolation but must allow all six billion people to thrive and achieve a sustainable coexistence with the many other species that form the “living earth.” From this standpoint the natural adaptation for most (possibly all) humans in the modern world is a vegan diet. There is nothing natural about the abomination of modern factory farming and its attempt to reduce living, feeling beings to machines. In choosing to use fortified foods or B12 supplements, vegans are taking their B12 from the same source as every other animal on the planet – micro-organisms – without causing suffering to any sentient being or causing environmental damage.<br>
\t Vegans using adequate amounts of fortified foods or B12 supplements are much less likely to suffer from B12 deficiency than the typical meat eater. The Institute of Medicine, in setting the US recommended intakes for B12 makes this very clear. “Because 10 to 30 percent of older people may be unable to absorb naturally occurring vitamin B12, it is advisable for those older than 50 years to meet their RDA mainly by consuming foods fortified with vitamin B12 or a vitamin B12-containing supplement.” Vegans should take this advice about 50 years younger, to the benefit of both themselves and the animals. B12 need never be a problem for well-informed vegans.<br>
\t Good information supports vegan health, pass it around.</div>
</div>
<br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">4) Are there any reliable vegan sources of b12 that we just don't eat enough?<br><br>
Thanks for taking time to look at this. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/grin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":D"></div>
</div>
<br>
Yes. Supplements and fortified foods.<br><br>
Relying on the hyperbole and misinformation that vegans "don't need as much B12" or "B12 can be gotten from seaweed" is performing a dangerous experiment and a gamble with your health.<br><br>
There's no good reason for any vegan not to take B12 supplements. It's a gamble not to.
 

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Many/most non-dairy milks are fortified with B-12, as well as many food products. There is nutritional yeast (<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":love:">), B-12 supplements, and you can always eat dirt. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p"> But just like any other vitamin, your body doesn't absorb all of it as you take it.<br><br>
My mom (not veg*n) just recently found out that she has a B-12 deficiency. Apparently if you have a "traveling pain" going throughout your body, it's a symptom of a deficiency. Lucky me with my <i>infinite superpower vegan knowledge</i> (<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/grin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":D">) I told her allll about the sources (the nurse had told her she wasn't eating enough meat). B-12 stays in your body for quite some time, too. I think your body uses about .1% a day, so it's not an instant thing if your deficient. You'd have to be getting by with very little B-12 in your diet in order to get to that point.
 

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I feel like I should add something. It's been mentioned twice in this thread that in some cases the human body can go five years without B12 without overt deficiency. While that can be true in some cases, that would only happen if your stores were exceptionally high at the beginning of that period. Also, it's not currently believed there's an unsafe upper limit. So really, within the bounds of what you can afford and what you're willing to take, the more B12 the better. There's no reason any of us should ever actually go that long without consuming any once we understand how vital it is.
 
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