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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Werewolf Girl</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2892594"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
There are so many differences between vegetarians, the only thing that connects us all is we don't eat meat. When I think meat I think muscle tissue that was actually cut off an animal, that's the distinction for me. Eggs aren't technically flesh or muscle or whatever you want to call it yet, and if they are unfertilized they never will be. Gross and unethical for sure but not muscle.</div>
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Yeah. eggs always seemed vegetarian to me because they are not meat. :/
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Rhys</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2893232"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
This is a bit of misinformation. Unfertilized eggs are often times eaten by the chickens, shell and all, to reabsorb the nutrients. Some people with pet chickens even boil them first or crack 'em open for their chickens to eat. It is nice to see when people rescue chickens and take good care of them though.<br><br>
While personal views may be slipping into this discussion, the OP's question is very interesting.</div>
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Ya your right... they do eat their eggs if they are left there to long, but they still smell like rotten eggs on top of chicken crap smell already if you leave them in the coup. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"> Ive always heard it is healthy for the chicken to consume their shells, I assume the whole egg would be good as well but Ive always heard the shells primarily.<br><br>
When I was a kid... with so many chickens we couldn't give away or consume enough ourselves.... so what we did was crack the eggs over the our dogs food, then either throw the egg shells back into the chicken pen for the chickens to consume or throw them into our gardens compost pile.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>nomad888</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2893190"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
In some languages, vegetarian includes fish. In others, it doesn't include any animal products. In English, it typically includes dairy and eggs. If most people understand vegetarian as including eggs then, yes, eggs are included. That's how language works. So from a linguistic perspective, the question is easy. A word means what most people understand it to mean. The word aweful, for example, historically meant full of awe (a positive thing) and over time the meaning changed because young children who hated going into the Roman cathedrals that were often described as aweful began sarcastically using the word with a more negative meaning, and the dictionary definition changed to remain in line with society's use of the word.<br><br>
Language adapts over time and I will continue eating eggs regardless of what the word vegetarian changes to mean, so long as the eggs meet my standards. We all draw our line at a different point. It is our ethics that determine exactly where that line is. The word itself is based on nothing more than an arbitrary interpretation assigned by the majority. Do what you feel is right regardless, and then find the word that best describes it for when you feel the need to communicate whatever it is that you do.</div>
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I think you're right, it's a 'common meaning' rather than a true diction term, as you would think vege-tarian would mean exactly what vegan means, vegetation eater.<br><br>
Anyhow, I was just curious how we came to terms with eggs being included in a vegetarian diet, I really think the linguistic explanation is the only one that seems to be correct.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>saramaus</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2893233"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I was thinking about this question, "are eggs really vegetarian?" when I was still a lacto-ovo vegetarian myself. It clicked in my head, that eggs aren't plant based, still came from an animal, and torture and death still surrounds the egg industry, as much as the meat industry does. I realized that a complete plant-based diet was the only logical choice for me.<br><br>
In my mind, eggs aren't vegetarian, just because it was created by an animal's body. Same goes for diary.</div>
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Agreed!
 

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I'm nerdy enough to have found this entire reading interesting. It explains the etymology of the words meat, vegan, and vegetarian. Here is the vegetarian portion of it.<br><br><a href="http://www.purifymind.com/SomeWords.htm" target="_blank">http://www.purifymind.com/SomeWords.htm</a><br><br><b>Vegetarian<br>
The term "vegetarian" was coined in 1847. It was first formally used on September 30th of that year by Joseph Brotherton and others, at Northwood Villa in Kent, England. The occasion being the inaugural meeting of the Vegetarian Society of the United Kingdom.<br>
The word was derived from the Latin "vegetus", meaning whole, sound, fresh, lively (it should not be confused with "vegetable-arian" -- a mythical human whom some imagine subsists entirely on vegetables without nuts, fruits, grains, etc.!).<br>
Prior to 1847, non-meat eaters were generally known as Pythagoreans or adhering to the "Pythagorean System", after the ancient Greek "vegetarian" Pythagorus.<br>
The original definition of "Vegetarian" was "with or without eggs or dairy products" and this is the definition still used by the Vegetarian Society today. Most vegetarians in India, however, exclude eggs from their diet as did those in the classical Mediterranean lands, such as Pythagoras.<br>
Some background to 'vegetarian' and 'vegan'<br>
The earliest non-meat-eaters that we know anything much about were in India and Ancient Greece (Pythagoreans), they used plant food plus dairy products - what we would now call lacto-vegetarian, which has always been, and still is, the predominant form of vegetarianism in India.<br>
The use of eggs was added by the British, probably in the 18th century when they revived the Pythagorean ideas. We can't be entirely sure why eggs were added but in the relatively cold, damp climate of Northern England, where all this was happening, the variety of fresh plant foods would have been much more limited than in India or the Mediterranean. Imports would have been very expensive and not very fresh by the time they arrived, so accepting eggs may have been a pragmatic decision. We would now call this group ovo-lacto-vegetarians and they are still the predominant tradition in the UK.<br>
In 1847 the word 'vegetarian' was invented by Joseph Brotherton and friends - the founders of the UK Vegetarian Society. Before that they rather innacurately called themselves Pythagoreans but no-one seemed to be too concerned about accuracy until the V word was invented, and we've been arguing about it ever since. The original definition was about eating various plant-foods, not eating 'meat, fish or fowl' and the immortal final phrase: 'with or without eggs or dairy produce'. Hence the lacto-veg and ovo-lacto-veg.<br>
Those who ate neither eggs nor dairy produce became known as 'strict vegetarians' and those remained the three main groups for the next hundred years or so.<br>
However... as early as 1851 there was an article in the Vegetarian Society magazine (copies still exist) about alternatives to leather for making shoes, there was even a report of someone patenting a new material. So there was always another group who were not just 'strict vegetarians' but also avoided using animal products for clothing or other purposes - naturally they wanted their own 'word' too, but they had a long wait.<br>
In 1944 Donald Watson and friends invented the word 'vegan' to fill the gap, and founded the Vegan Society (in the UK) specifically for this group. They defined the word in terms of all animal products, not just a diet, as that was the reason for inventing it, and everyone was happy - until the Americans got involved...<br>
The British ideas had long since crossed the Atlantic but, as always, Americans have their own way of doing things. Whilst many used the same words, for the same reasons, even more began to use them differently. The health aspect of vegetarianism has always seemed to be a bigger issue in America than in Britain, and a lot of people who only ate meat occasionally, for health reasons, started calling themselves 'vegetarian'. The latest surveys suggest that, in the USA, there are up to seven times as many of these 'semi' vegetarians as genuine vegetarians by any of the definitions above.<br>
For many, the logic of the health argument also leads to the removal of eggs/dairy products and it would appear that a very much higher proportion of American vegetarians are 'no eggs/dairy' than in Britain, but again a significant proportion of those are primarily motivated by health, and are therefore not bothered about wearing leather etc. This fits the 'strict vegetarian' group, but in the best of American traditions, they then confused things further by insisting on calling themselves 'vegan'.<br>
This has become so common that the UK Vegan Society has had to acknowledge the development of its original word into concepts of 'dietary vegan' and 'ethical vegan', even though 'dietary vegans' are almost unknown in the UK, or anywhere else outside of North America.<br>
"another fine mess" as one eminent American might have said...</b>
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Jemdude</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2893407"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Lacto-ovo vegetarianism is the most common form of vegetarianism, so that has to mean something.</div>
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It was also a common belief at one time that the earth was flat, and that if you sailed into the ocean you would eventually reach the edge and fall into an abyss. So I don't think commonly held notions mean anything just because a majority believes them.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>nomad888</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2893780"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I'm nerdy enough to have found this entire reading interesting. It explains the etymology of the words meat, vegan, and vegetarian. Here is the vegetarian portion of it.<br><br><a href="http://www.purifymind.com/SomeWords.htm" target="_blank">http://www.purifymind.com/SomeWords.htm</a><br><br><b>...This fits the 'strict vegetarian' group, but in the best of American traditions, they then confused things further by insisting on calling themselves 'vegan'...</b></div>
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LOL
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>nomad888</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2893780"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><b><br>
For many, the logic of the health argument also leads to the removal of eggs/dairy products and it would appear that a very much higher proportion of American vegetarians are 'no eggs/dairy' than in Britain, but again a significant proportion of those are primarily motivated by health, and are therefore not bothered about wearing leather etc. This fits the 'strict vegetarian' group, but in the best of American traditions, they then confused things further by insisting on calling themselves 'vegan'.<br>
This has become so common that the UK Vegan Society has had to acknowledge the development of its original word into concepts of 'dietary vegan' and 'ethical vegan', even though 'dietary vegans' are almost unknown in the UK, or anywhere else outside of North America.<br>
"another fine mess" as one eminent American might have said...</b></div>
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The distinction between "ethical" and "dietary" vegans doesn't make sense to me. I don't believe you will find many people whose diet is completely vegan but whose motivation is completely health-oriented. I'm not denying there might be a few out there, but their numbers would seem to be trivial. What you find instead are people who eat as vegans for ethical reasons, and who either do or do not extend their practices past what they eat. Many "dietary vegans" say the market for meat is what drives the harvesting of wool and leather, and that those meat animals are just as doomed whether or not their by-products are used. To this line of thinking, it follows that drawing the line at diet is what makes the big difference to animals (flesh being 90 percent of the slaughter economy), and that the use of animal by-products will dry up only if the demand for animal flesh dries up. I can see disagreeing with this logic, but I don't fault the <i>ethics</i> of those who use it to guide their own behavior.
 

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In France, vegetal means vegetable matter, not as in just a vegetable, but any vegetation-based-food from the earth- so if something says 100% vegetal, it's vegan. The French word for vegan is vegetalien. I've always assumed that in English, the veget part of vegetarian meant vegetable matter (Inc nuts seeds legumes fruits grains) and that by adding eggs and dairy the word was, etymologically at any rate, incorrect. However all kinds of things are incorrectly categorised in everyday discourse, like tomatoes being popularly referred to as vegetables, not fruits. It doesn't really bother me, as long as everyone knows what the word generally means- i.e. If someone gave me a bunch of fruit and veg and said put the veg in one pile and the fruit in the other, as long as we were both categorising the tomato as a veg.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Joan Kennedy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2893253"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I would love to hear from Hindus on Veggieboards as to how their religious guidelines transfer into daily practice. More than a dozen of the people I work with are Hindu. They have all lived in the US long enough to assimilate in some ways and keep to their native culture in other ways. We eat out together frequently, and we share food at potlucks. We label all our potluck dishes as to whether or not they contain meat, but we have not been asked to go into more detail than that. The Hindus' preferences in this group range from omnivore (mostly plant-based with occasional meat), to avoiding all meat and visible egg. Not one among them avoids egg as a secondary or trace ingredient in baked goods and ice cream, and most (all but the ones who sometimes eat meat) of them consider themselves diligent and faithful vegetarians. From India, which is maybe the most highly vegetarian country on the planet. I'm thinking the world at large has one definition of vegetarian, and vegans have another.</div>
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Not sure how many you'll find here on VB. I know there are some Hare Krishnas who avoid eggs for these Spiritual reasons.<br><br>
The traditions I have been affiliated with in the Spiritual and Yogic communities that have been Sikh and Hindu eschew eggs as not vegetarian.<br><br>
In terms of the people you mention knowing, I think it's like how traditionally, Catholics don't cheat on their spouses, as it's frowned upon and viewed as a sin but practically speaking many do indeed cheat, know what I mean? Everything becomes adulterated in time, it seems, even if the original intent was to be a certain way.<br><br>
Even if I were not vegan, I would still not eat eggs due to the Hindu/Sikh influences on my belief systems.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>*AHIMSA*</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2893910"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
In terms of the people you mention knowing, I think it's like how traditionally, Catholics don't cheat on their spouses, as it's frowned upon and viewed as a sin but practically speaking many do indeed cheat, know what I mean? Everything becomes adulterated in time, it seems, even if the original intent was to be a certain way.<br><br>
Even if I were not vegan, I would still not eat eggs due to the Hindu/Sikh influences on my belief systems.</div>
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As someone who came up Catholic, what I'd liken it to instead is the difference between "cradle Catholics" and Catholic converts. Nobody is as diligently observant as a Catholic convert, in large and small points of belief and practice. Likewise, I know no vegetarians among my friends who were raised Buddhist. Among those who came to Buddhism as adults, I know no meat-eaters.<br><br>
Adultery isn't a Catholic thing per se, it's a monotheistic thing, of particular importance in all Christian, Jewish and Muslim religions. There's a whole commandment dedicated to it, all groups honor it as a belief, all groups break it.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>nomad888</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2893780"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I'm nerdy enough to have found this entire reading interesting. It explains the etymology of the words meat, vegan, and vegetarian. Here is the vegetarian portion of it.<br><br><a href="http://www.purifymind.com/SomeWords.htm" target="_blank">http://www.purifymind.com/SomeWords.htm</a><br><br><b>Vegetarian<br>
The term "vegetarian" was coined in 1847. It was first formally used on September 30th of that year by Joseph Brotherton and others, at Northwood Villa in Kent, England. The occasion being the inaugural meeting of the Vegetarian Society of the United Kingdom.<br>
The word was derived from the Latin "vegetus", meaning whole, sound, fresh, lively (it should not be confused with "vegetable-arian" -- a mythical human whom some imagine subsists entirely on vegetables without nuts, fruits, grains, etc.!).<br>
Prior to 1847, non-meat eaters were generally known as Pythagoreans or adhering to the "Pythagorean System", after the ancient Greek "vegetarian" Pythagorus.<br>
The original definition of "Vegetarian" was "with or without eggs or dairy products" and this is the definition still used by the Vegetarian Society today. Most vegetarians in India, however, exclude eggs from their diet as did those in the classical Mediterranean lands, such as Pythagoras.<br>
Some background to 'vegetarian' and 'vegan'<br>
The earliest non-meat-eaters that we know anything much about were in India and Ancient Greece (Pythagoreans), they used plant food plus dairy products - what we would now call lacto-vegetarian, which has always been, and still is, the predominant form of vegetarianism in India.<br>
The use of eggs was added by the British, probably in the 18th century when they revived the Pythagorean ideas. We can't be entirely sure why eggs were added but in the relatively cold, damp climate of Northern England, where all this was happening, the variety of fresh plant foods would have been much more limited than in India or the Mediterranean. Imports would have been very expensive and not very fresh by the time they arrived, so accepting eggs may have been a pragmatic decision. We would now call this group ovo-lacto-vegetarians and they are still the predominant tradition in the UK.<br>
In 1847 the word 'vegetarian' was invented by Joseph Brotherton and friends - the founders of the UK Vegetarian Society. Before that they rather innacurately called themselves Pythagoreans but no-one seemed to be too concerned about accuracy until the V word was invented, and we've been arguing about it ever since. The original definition was about eating various plant-foods, not eating 'meat, fish or fowl' and the immortal final phrase: 'with or without eggs or dairy produce'. Hence the lacto-veg and ovo-lacto-veg.<br>
Those who ate neither eggs nor dairy produce became known as 'strict vegetarians' and those remained the three main groups for the next hundred years or so.<br>
However... as early as 1851 there was an article in the Vegetarian Society magazine (copies still exist) about alternatives to leather for making shoes, there was even a report of someone patenting a new material. So there was always another group who were not just 'strict vegetarians' but also avoided using animal products for clothing or other purposes - naturally they wanted their own 'word' too, but they had a long wait.<br>
In 1944 Donald Watson and friends invented the word 'vegan' to fill the gap, and founded the Vegan Society (in the UK) specifically for this group. They defined the word in terms of all animal products, not just a diet, as that was the reason for inventing it, and everyone was happy - until the Americans got involved...<br>
The British ideas had long since crossed the Atlantic but, as always, Americans have their own way of doing things. Whilst many used the same words, for the same reasons, even more began to use them differently. The health aspect of vegetarianism has always seemed to be a bigger issue in America than in Britain, and a lot of people who only ate meat occasionally, for health reasons, started calling themselves 'vegetarian'. The latest surveys suggest that, in the USA, there are up to seven times as many of these 'semi' vegetarians as genuine vegetarians by any of the definitions above.<br>
For many, the logic of the health argument also leads to the removal of eggs/dairy products and it would appear that a very much higher proportion of American vegetarians are 'no eggs/dairy' than in Britain, but again a significant proportion of those are primarily motivated by health, and are therefore not bothered about wearing leather etc. This fits the 'strict vegetarian' group, but in the best of American traditions, they then confused things further by insisting on calling themselves 'vegan'.<br>
This has become so common that the UK Vegan Society has had to acknowledge the development of its original word into concepts of 'dietary vegan' and 'ethical vegan', even though 'dietary vegans' are almost unknown in the UK, or anywhere else outside of North America.<br>
"another fine mess" as one eminent American might have said...</b></div>
</div>
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This should be posted in a sticky thread in the New to Vegetarianism forum. It would prevent a lot of confusion and pointlessly redundant threads.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Joan Kennedy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2893913"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
As someone who came up Catholic, what I'd liken it to instead is the difference between "cradle Catholics" and converts. Nobody is as diligently observant as a Catholic convert. Likewise, I know no vegetarians among my friends who were raised Buddhist. Among those who came to Buddhism as adults, I know no meat-eaters.</div>
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So you are saying that in your experience, those who are raised with a belief system become complacent, lax with the guidelines and tenets of said belief systems? I call that hypocrisy, suppose that's for another thread. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/shy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":shy:">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>*AHIMSA*</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2893919"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
So you are saying that in your experience, those who are raised with a belief system become complacent, lax with the guidelines and tenets of said belief systems? I call that hypocrisy, suppose that's for another thread. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/shy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":shy:"></div>
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I think <i>hypocrisy</i> is something else again. Here, I'm talking about open practice, not secret sneaking of meat. Buddhism does not forbid eating meat, and Hindu sects vary as to how strongly meat is discouraged, and which meats. Pho and sashimi come to us from Buddhist cultures, and Tandoori chicken from a Hindu one. What I am saying is that, across the board, it is extremely common to struggle with one's beliefs, and to come to an adult conscience at odds with the prohibitions of one's birth religion. Birth control prohibition might be a better Catholic example than adultery, because it is distinctly Catholic, and also because it is extremely hard to defend. I would never say a Catholic who used birth control was lax, hypocritical or complacent. I would say they were experiencing an honest disagreement with religious authority. Naturally, some believe the only honest response to such disagreement is to leave the religion, while others believe there is too much else of value there to abandon it completely.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>River</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2893391"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I think you're right, it's a 'common meaning' rather than a true diction term, as you would think vege-tarian would mean exactly what vegan means, vegetation eater.<br><br>
Anyhow, I was just curious how we came to terms with eggs being included in a vegetarian diet, I really think the linguistic explanation is the only one that seems to be correct.</div>
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Actually, the 'vege' comes from the latin 'vegetas', meaning lively. So it doesn't have anything to do with vegetation at all.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>AeryFairy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2893934"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Actually, the 'vege' comes from the latin 'vegetas', meaning lively. So it doesn't have anything to do with vegetation at all.</div>
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I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that whoever came up with the word 'vegetarian' did not intend to use the latin prefix for 'lively' and most likely was using the truncated version of the word 'vegetation' or 'vegetable' which does incorporate the latin prefix for 'lively'. And if that is the case, the definition should not includ eggs and dairy as they obviously are not vegetation.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>River</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2892570"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Again - THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE ETHICAL DILEMMA.<br><br>
My point is that eggs, and their molecular composition do not seem to have any vegetarian properties, or anything that would otherwise make them Vegetarian, so why do we consider them vegetarian?</div>
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while eggs are not literally vegetarian they are considered ok to be a part of a vegetarian diet because <b>literally</b> you do not have to kill a creature to get the egg.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>*AHIMSA*</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2893910"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
The traditions I have been affiliated with in the Spiritual and Yogic communities that have been Sikh and Hindu eschew eggs as not vegetarian.<br><br>
Even if I were not vegan, I would still not eat eggs due to the Hindu/Sikh influences on my belief systems.</div>
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same here on both points...the (mostly) Sikh influences that have become a large part of my belief system is the main reason i don't eat eggs.<br>
but that's just <i>my</i> belief system that i've chosen, so i pass no judgement on any vegetarians who eat eggs. we are all veg*ns and we all have that in common and that's good enough for me. so whatever degree/level each one chooses to take it to for whatever reasons, is of no concern to me.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>nomad888</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2893780"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I'm nerdy enough to have found this entire reading interesting. It explains the etymology of the words meat, vegan, and vegetarian. Here is the vegetarian portion of it.<br><br><a href="http://www.purifymind.com/SomeWords.htm" target="_blank">http://www.purifymind.com/SomeWords.htm</a><br><br><b>Vegetarian<br>
The term "vegetarian" was coined in 1847. It was first formally used on September 30th of that year by Joseph Brotherton and others, at Northwood Villa in Kent, England. The occasion being the inaugural meeting of the Vegetarian Society of the United Kingdom.<br>
The word was derived from the Latin "vegetus", meaning whole, sound, fresh, lively (it should not be confused with "vegetable-arian" -- a mythical human whom some imagine subsists entirely on vegetables without nuts, fruits, grains, etc.!).<br>
Prior to 1847, non-meat eaters were generally known as Pythagoreans or adhering to the "Pythagorean System", after the ancient Greek "vegetarian" Pythagorus.<br>
The original definition of "Vegetarian" was "with or without eggs or dairy products" and this is the definition still used by the Vegetarian Society today. Most vegetarians in India, however, exclude eggs from their diet as did those in the classical Mediterranean lands, such as Pythagoras.<br>
Some background to 'vegetarian' and 'vegan'<br>
The earliest non-meat-eaters that we know anything much about were in India and Ancient Greece (Pythagoreans), they used plant food plus dairy products - what we would now call lacto-vegetarian, which has always been, and still is, the predominant form of vegetarianism in India.<br>
The use of eggs was added by the British, probably in the 18th century when they revived the Pythagorean ideas. We can't be entirely sure why eggs were added but in the relatively cold, damp climate of Northern England, where all this was happening, the variety of fresh plant foods would have been much more limited than in India or the Mediterranean. Imports would have been very expensive and not very fresh by the time they arrived, so accepting eggs may have been a pragmatic decision. We would now call this group ovo-lacto-vegetarians and they are still the predominant tradition in the UK.<br>
In 1847 the word 'vegetarian' was invented by Joseph Brotherton and friends - the founders of the UK Vegetarian Society. Before that they rather innacurately called themselves Pythagoreans but no-one seemed to be too concerned about accuracy until the V word was invented, and we've been arguing about it ever since. The original definition was about eating various plant-foods, not eating 'meat, fish or fowl' and the immortal final phrase: 'with or without eggs or dairy produce'. Hence the lacto-veg and ovo-lacto-veg.<br>
Those who ate neither eggs nor dairy produce became known as 'strict vegetarians' and those remained the three main groups for the next hundred years or so.<br>
However... as early as 1851 there was an article in the Vegetarian Society magazine (copies still exist) about alternatives to leather for making shoes, there was even a report of someone patenting a new material. So there was always another group who were not just 'strict vegetarians' but also avoided using animal products for clothing or other purposes - naturally they wanted their own 'word' too, but they had a long wait.<br>
In 1944 Donald Watson and friends invented the word 'vegan' to fill the gap, and founded the Vegan Society (in the UK) specifically for this group. They defined the word in terms of all animal products, not just a diet, as that was the reason for inventing it, and everyone was happy - until the Americans got involved...<br>
The British ideas had long since crossed the Atlantic but, as always, Americans have their own way of doing things. Whilst many used the same words, for the same reasons, even more began to use them differently. The health aspect of vegetarianism has always seemed to be a bigger issue in America than in Britain, and a lot of people who only ate meat occasionally, for health reasons, started calling themselves 'vegetarian'. The latest surveys suggest that, in the USA, there are up to seven times as many of these 'semi' vegetarians as genuine vegetarians by any of the definitions above.<br>
For many, the logic of the health argument also leads to the removal of eggs/dairy products and it would appear that a very much higher proportion of American vegetarians are 'no eggs/dairy' than in Britain, but again a significant proportion of those are primarily motivated by health, and are therefore not bothered about wearing leather etc. This fits the 'strict vegetarian' group, but in the best of American traditions, they then confused things further by insisting on calling themselves 'vegan'.<br>
This has become so common that the UK Vegan Society has had to acknowledge the development of its original word into concepts of 'dietary vegan' and 'ethical vegan', even though 'dietary vegans' are almost unknown in the UK, or anywhere else outside of North America.<br><span style="color:#FF0000;">"another fine mess"</span> as one eminent American might have said...</b></div>
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<br><img alt="" src="http://jameslogancourier.org/media/MCT/20080118-150px-OliverHardycheeks.gif" style="border:0px solid;"> great article! lol.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Zoe74</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2893942"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that whoever came up with the word 'vegetarian' did not intend to use the latin prefix for 'lively' and most likely was using the truncated version of the word 'vegetation' or 'vegetable' which does incorporate the latin prefix for 'lively'. And if that is the case, the definition should not includ eggs and dairy as they obviously are not vegetation.</div>
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I read somewhere that the point originally was that meat is "dead" and eating it only causes decay while on the other hand we thrive if we eat "live" things. Dairy and eggs would fall into sort of a gray area by that definition.
 

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Personally i'll eat eggs and drink milk, as long as it's a byproduct of the animal and not meat or the dead body etc. A Sikh will not eat eggs because they do not eat anything that has had potential life. So that is why they cannot eat eggs but will drink milk and eat cheese etc. It's not that the egg is life, it is that it could have been life if left to be fertilized. Sikh's treat the body and "shell" in a very specific way-they aren't allowed to cut their hair or get piercings and such- so I would say it is not the term "vegetarian" that stops them from eating eggs but their religion-so that is all an entirely different bag of chips <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p"><br>
To me, saying it's life is like saying not to use birthcontrol because it's abortion even if it's not fertilised. Scary lol. If it's not fertilized, no life no problem. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br>
So I would understand eggs as vegetarian as is the definition under the Vegetarian Society<br>
""Someone who lives on a diet of grains, pulses, nuts, seeds, vegetables and fruits with, or without, the use of dairy products and eggs. A vegetarian does not eat any meat, poultry, game, fish, shellfish* or by-products of slaughter." -This is the oldest organization starting in the 1800's.<br><br>
On a Moral note: Those who are eating eggs are likely supporting factory farms, but this is a different issue entirely and may not be true for all people.<br><br><br>
There's also the issue of pesticides that keep our plants and fruits and such that we eat. This also contributes to a large amount of wildlife dying or becoming ill, fish, bees, birds just to name a few that are effected by our diet needs. So in this respect we could say- are these plants then vegetarian? They are, but this all comes down to a moral issue and changing things. Same with chickens, we need to change how they are treated- maybe buy from family farms where the chickens DO have feilds and such to run about in (we know free range still means caged). SO yeah, I wouldn't call something non-veg because of a moral issue, I would just want to change that situation.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Zoe74</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2893942"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that whoever came up with the word 'vegetarian' did not intend to use the latin prefix for 'lively' and most likely was using the truncated version of the word 'vegetation' or 'vegetable' which does incorporate the latin prefix for 'lively'. And if that is the case, the definition should not includ eggs and dairy as they obviously are not vegetation.</div>
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Nope; according to the Vegetarian Society, the latin is where the word 'vegetarian' came from.
 
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