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A tangent from a thread about politics and animal rights, I think this deserves it's own thread insted of clogging up the political one.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>puppyluv</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I was a Christian and a meat eater for many years. How anyone can read the Bible and say that animal welfare is supported by Judeo-Christian values is beyond me. Animal sacrifice was the norm in the Old Testament and although Christians did not continue it, they only rejected it because of HUMAN sacrifice.<br></div>
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quoted from <a href="http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/showpost.php?p=1338079&postcount=7" target="_blank">here</a>.<br><br><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>troub</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
One cannot expect more elightened beliefs to be placed upon an ancient people.<br><br><br><br>
In Genesis, God's ideal life conditions (Eden) were completly vegan. In the prophecies of Isaiah they appear to return the that state.<br><br>
But we are a stubborn people and need to be brought slowly to a place of higher thinking. As you read through the bible and history itself, you see how people went from stoning any and everyone for whatever crime, to insted an "eye for an eye", where the punishment fits the crime. We then see more merciful punishments, forgiveness, slave rights, slave abolishment, women rights, and so on.<br><br><br><br>
You cannot a 7 year old to learn quantum mechanics before learning multiplication. How would one expect to teach a young people animal rights (extra-species rights) before they learn to appreciate human rights (self-species rights)?<br><br><br><br>
Of course this is getting off-tangent, and there are other threads that discuss vegan christian philosophies.<br><br><br><br>
But I will leave you with this verse. <span style="color:#0000FF;">"As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. All go to the same place, all come from dust, and to dust all return." Ecc. 3:18-20</span><br><br><br><br>
"All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal." Sounds like animal welfare to me. And even more so, this verse rings of species-wide equality, and this is old testament scripture. Saying that mankind has no advantage over the animals is more radical "animal rights" then most AR people would believe in, and this is straight from Judeo-Christian holy scripture.<br><br><br><br>
I fully believe that "Christian values" support the veganism movement, but as I said, we are a young people, it will take a while before extraspecies rights are believed by the masses.</div>
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quoted from <a href="http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/showpost.php?p=1338548&postcount=12" target="_blank">here</a>.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>puppyluv</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Thanks for all that, I know it was given in the spirit of enlightenment, but I went 4 years to Bible college, majoring in Sacred Literature (ie The Bible) and my husband graduated with a theology degree and was an ordained minister for a time. We were practicing Christians for many many years. We do not consider ourselves Christians now much less religious. Yes people CAN grow in knowledge and we feel we have grown out of the superstitious way we were brought up as Christians. On a side note--according to Christian beliefs and the Bible itself, the God of the New Testament is the same God as the Old Testament. That would lead one to believe that the God who spoke through the both Old and New Testament writers mandated animal sacrifices. IF it is just a matter of ancient beliefs vs more modern beliefs then where is the authority of Scripture? Yes indeed humans have changed but the very scripture they say they believe is authoritative has NOT changed in over 2000years. Could it be that some humans have become more compassionate than the God say they believe in?</div>
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quoted from <a href="http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/showpost.php?p=1338813&postcount=17" target="_blank">here</a>.
 

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"See, I give you every seed-bearing plant all over the earth and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit on it to be your food; and to all the animals of the land, all the birds of the air, and all the living creatures that crawl on the ground, I give all the green plants for food."<br><br><br><br>
- God<br><br><br><br>
When the Big Guy says something that specific, it's good enough for me. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/angel.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":angel:">
 

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^ Same, if you believe the Bible is the truth, then God outright saying that animals and humans shall live off plants is good enough for me.
 

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Jesus taught to interpret the Law in the light of love. What is the loving choice for the Christian?<br><br><br><br>
Personally, I don't see how the idea of animal rights conflicts with Love.
 

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If you say that animal rights is a person cannot kill an animal for their own benefit, then no, they don't agree, but if you think animals should be treated kindly by people and slaughtered humanely, the the Bible is a good guide for people's relationship with animals.<br><br><br><br>
I like this: <a href="http://www.bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php?id=212" target="_blank">http://www.bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php?id=212</a>
 

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Theoretical Christianity or practical Christianity?<br><br><br><br>
That is to say, the religion as it is or the culture of its followers?
 

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Can you clarify what you mean by "the religion as it is"? Christianity is a very diverse religion, and religion is a combination of beliefs and practices of its followers. Or do you think Christianity exists somehow apart from the beliefs and practices of Christians?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>social_moth</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Theoretical Christianity or practical Christianity?<br><br><br><br>
That is to say, the religion as it is or the culture of its followers?</div>
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Very similar to what I was going to say: Christianity itself is not imcompatible with animal rights and in many ways, calls for animal <i>welfare</i>.<br><br><br><br>
Christianity, as commonly implemented in our culture, does not recognize animals as being part of the picture.
 

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Christianity, as commonly implemented in our culture, varies greatly from various "theoretical Christianities" including much of what Jesus taught (or is depicted in the Bible as teaching), which is simply ignored as inconvenient.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Ludi</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Christianity, as commonly implemented in our culture, varies greatly from various "theoretical Christianities" including much of what Jesus taught (or is depicted in the Bible as teaching), which is simply ignored as inconvenient.</div>
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This is sadly true.<br><br><br><br>
But in regards to a belief system one should look at the teachings of it's originator, and the foundational texts of the belief, not the way in which a subset of people follow those teachings.<br><br><br><br>
(pray in secret, love your enemies, turn the other cheek, dont kill, etc,etc,etc.) When a large group of people get more frustrated with the "moral conflicts" of a gay couple than the murder of children in Iraq, you can tell the teachings of Love are far from their ears.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Ludi</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Christianity, as commonly implemented in our culture, varies greatly from various "theoretical Christianities" including much of what Jesus taught (or is depicted in the Bible as teaching), which is simply ignored as inconvenient.</div>
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Exactly my point. We can debate weather the Christian Bible does or doesn't promote animal welfare, but it's a moot point if modern Christianity is independent of the Bible.<br><br><br><br>
To paraphrase Gandhi, Christ and Christians often stand in sharp contrast.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>troub</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br><br><br>
But in regards to a belief system one should look at the teachings of it's originator, and the foundational texts of the belief, not the way in which a subset of people follow those teachings.<br></div>
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I would argue that it is not a "subset" but rather the vast majority of Christians who largely ignore the basic teachings of Jesus, since quite early times. Which Christians are representative of the religion? A tiny minority, or the majority of those who have practiced it?<br><br><br><br>
Christianity is the single largest religion in the world, currently the most popular. Do we see a world of kindness, love, and equity, or do we see something else?
 

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On a more abstract level, I think Christianity, like many other religions, supports a kind of thinking that relies on pre-established orders and ways that things are "meant to be", which kind of thinking is in turn harmful for AR.<br><br><br><br>
That being said, there is no necessary contradiction of course, which will probably be easy to see from the writings of the best known AR theologian, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Linzey" target="_blank">Andrew Linzey</a> from UK. (Matthew Scully doesn't support AR but AW.)
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Ludi</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
[...] Christianity is the single largest religion in the world, currently the most popular. Do we see a world of kindness, love, and equity, or do we see something else?</div>
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That's a glass half-full vs. half-empty scenario. To many people, life is good because someone reached out to them in their brokenness.<br><br><br><br>
Besides, to someone with a chip on their shoulder against Christianity, even if the measure of inequity or hatred were reduced to something "very small", it *could* be blamed on Christians simply for being in the majority.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>skylark</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
That's a glass half-full vs. half-empty scenario. To many people, life is good because someone reached out to them in their brokenness.<br><br>
Besides, to someone with a chip on their shoulder against Christianity, even if the measure of inequity or hatred were reduced to something "very small", it *could* be blamed on Christians simply for being in the majority.</div>
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And to someone bias towards Christianity, no matter how bad the world is, it can always be blamed on the "pagans and homos". Point is, that if Christianity was the supreme religion of peace, harmony and tolerance, then in theory the world should be a much nicer, much happier, much healthier place. In fact, historically speaking, places tend to be worse off after Christianity is introduced.<br><br><br><br>
However, that's not the point. The point is that the Christianity of today is not the Christianity of the Bible.<br><br><br><br>
Oh, and as far as "reaching out to someone" is concerned, that is just as secular as it Christian (or religious at all). It just depends on who got there first.
 

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A couple of thoughts on this...<br><br><br><br>
Many people separate their "religious/spiritual" life from their everyday life in this country. I think this tends to be a cultural thing and not so much something unique to a particular faith. Many people don't think about animal rights or welfare, regardless of their particular faith.<br><br><br><br>
People can use their particular faith to justify a multitude of things. We read about it in the news every day.The christian scripture clearly states that the original diet was meatless for both man and animals, but this changed after the Fall of mankind into sin. Your average person on the street reads the bible and sees that people "back then" ate meat so that today we should be able to eat meat. They ignore the fact that animals raised for meat TODAY are treated a lot different that the animals raised THEN. They just take this as license to eat meat. People 200 years ago used the bible to justify keeping slaves, because there were slaves mentioned in the bible. They read what they wanted and ignored the fact that the early church existed during the Roman empire, which was built on the back of slaves, and the point the scripture was making wasn't justifying slavery, but rather referring to being content in your station in life, regardless of being slave or free. These same types of people read about man having dominion over the earth, and interpret this to mean we can do whatever we want - having dominion is an awesome/heavy responsibilty and isn't as easy as "doing whatever we want...".<br><br><br><br>
Christians are called to love and compassion in their daily walk - this extends to all creatures. Many people accept salvation ("a sinner saved by grace") and never move beyond that in their daily life. Its like doing the bare minimum to get by. Many "Sunday" christians never move beyond this, and it is unfortunate for them.<br><br><br><br>
Thats my rant while I get ready for church...<br><br>
KB
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>social_moth</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
And to someone bias towards Christianity, no matter how bad the world is, it can always be blamed on the "pagans and homos". Point is, that if Christianity was the supreme religion of peace, harmony and tolerance, then in theory the world should be a much nicer, much happier, much healthier place. In fact, historically speaking, places tend to be worse off after Christianity is introduced.<br></div>
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Hmm... I don't know about your last sentence. I thought Muslim countries today aren't noted for shining human rights records. Hindu society was fairly rigidly divided across different class lines until rather recently- perhaps it still is. European pagan societies supposedly practiced human sacrifice: the custom of breaking a wine bottle on the bow of a ship is supposedly derived from the Viking practice of launching a boat down a ramp where a human victim was tied, and the modern custom of a bonfire at Halloween is supposed to derive from a similar Celtic practice, as in "bone-fire".<br><br><br><br>
I'm not an expert on Eastern/Middle Eastern culture or ancient European history, so if anyone wants to argue, I'm listening. And I'm not excusing the nasty things Christian societies HAVE done. I'm just not seeing that things are generally worse in those areas that have embraced the New Testament than they would have been otherwise.
 

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>>But in regards to a belief system one should look at the teachings of it's originator, and the foundational texts of the belief, not the way in which a subset of people follow those teachings.>><br><br><br><br>
How could such a "theoretical christianity" exist? Is a text not in an interplay of intent and interpretation? Do I not sound more authoritative when I speak in streams of rhetorical questions? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br><br><br>
ebola
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Tom</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I'm just not seeing that things are generally worse in those areas that have embraced the New Testament than they would have been otherwise.</div>
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You don't notice that most of the 1000s of cultures that used to exist in the New World prior to Christian colonization don't exist anymore? They're just gone, wiped out.<br><br><br><br>
The point is, the world should be a much BETTER place thanks to Christianity. Jesus taught that even pagans can be nice to people they like. He expected his followers to do better. They haven't.
 

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You don't think that perhaps it's not Christianity itself, but the way people abuse religion in general to further their own political and social agendas? If I want to enslave you but need to eliminate those who would protect you, I could say that it is the will of the Lord that you kill them, and you must be obedient for the good of your soul... "Remember that fiery pit I told you about." Is that Christianity or is that my using the power that religion has over people for controlling purposes?<br><br><br><br>
I would say that the abuse of Christianity and the Christian religion are not one and the same.
 
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