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What I believe is that the animal rights movement should divorce itself from irrelevant politics, or at least consider the issue.<br><br><br><br>
Several writers of the animal rights movement, Gary Francione and Peter Singer being great examples, have promoted leftism as a solution to the problems of the world, including animal rights.<br><br>
Such attitudes are also evident in the slogans of certain liberators.<br><br><br><br>
Your opinion?
 

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I believe a big problem in some parts of the American AW/AR movement is the separation of animal rights from other political issues. I don't believe AR campaigns should contain non-related political statements, but I think the campaigns shouldn't go against some "leftist" values either, like PETA is doing e.g. by promoting homophobic AW candidates.
 

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The problem really is that whilst AR is generally portrayed as being the realm of extreme liberalism, many supporters (myself included) are quite far to the right of the political spectrum in many regards and feel alienated from AR in a political arena. Certainly this caused me problems in the last election (UK) in having to choose between a party that would take steps towards banning foxhunting, and one which correlated better with all the rest of my political views. AR can (in different forms) fit in just as well with right wing political views as leftist ones and the more it is able to become disasociated with those views on other issues irrelevant to animal wellbeing, the more inclusive the support of AR will become.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>queenarmadillo</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
AR can (in different forms) fit in just as well with right wing political views as leftist ones and the more it is able to become disasociated with those views on other issues irrelevant to animal wellbeing, the more inclusive the support of AR will become.</div>
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However, I'm pretty sure the most likely people to become veg*n are from "the left", so from a tactical standpoint it makes more sense to think about them.<br><br><br><br>
And I would disagree that AR fits with leftist views "just as well" as with rightist views. There is no necessary contradiction but there are many things about right wing views that are more hostile to AR: the conservative opposition to any radical changes, sometimes a Judeo-Christian background which generally supports rather humanocentric views, sometimes an emphasis on what is "natural" (as in opposition to gay marriage), and probably others (I think some rightist on VB denied AR because you have to "earn" rights).
 

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Conservatism is not the arbitrary rejection of change. It's the promotion of big business to create wealthier communities, it's the belief in the original Constitution, and (when it comes to it) rejection of change for well-founded reasons. Liberals will also reject change when it goes against personal beliefs.<br><br><br><br>
It's wrong to say that Conservatism is less likely to fit in with Animal Rights, especially when the Conservative views align with those of Judeo-Christianity. My mom and I are both Catholic, and she herself is so conservative she often doesn't approve of the republican party. At age 45, just this year, she became vegetarian for ethical reasons.<br><br><br><br>
An emphasis on what is natural only follows with her vegetarian beliefs. She is very much into living a healthy lifestyle, and has told me how she doesn't think God ever intended animals to kill when not facing life or death. I've even seen her sitting out in our living room, leafing through our big copy of the Bible and looking for things Jesus or another person said that relates to vegetarianism.<br><br><br><br>
We also tend to steer away from processed foods and non-organic foods for reasons such as these.<br><br><br><br>
While she may only be AW at this point, I am beyond doubt AR.<br><br>
I'm sure that we can't be rare instances, but even if we are...I've made my point. Judeo-Christian and conservative values can fit in with Animal Rights as well as those of liberals.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>GNUmoe</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Conservatism is not the arbitrary rejection of change. It's the promotion of big business to create wealthier communities, it's the belief in the original Constitution, and (when it comes to it) rejection of change for well-founded reasons. Liberals will also reject change when it goes against personal beliefs.</div>
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The very term 'conservatism' highlights a tendency to conserve (traditional values and policies).<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">It's wrong to say that Conservatism is less likely to fit in with Animal Rights, especially when the Conservative views align with those of Judeo-Christianity. My mom and I are both Catholic, and she herself is so conservative she often doesn't approve of the republican party. At age 45, just this year, she became vegetarian for ethical reasons.</div>
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I said 'generally' and you are using anecdotal evidence. I would argue that cultures emphasizing Catholicism tend to be quite bad for animals: for example, Spain and Italy.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">An emphasis on what is natural only follows with her vegetarian beliefs. She is very much into living a healthy lifestyle, and has told me how she doesn't think God ever intended animals to kill when not facing life or death.</div>
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Well yes, some find veg*nism to be the more "natural" option, but despite that, one of the biggest obstacles to AR is the way that people rely on notions of what "other animals do", and what diet we are "meant to have" because of our teeth or whatever, and so on. I think the less you care about any kind of pre-established "natural order", the more receptive you will be to veg*nism.
 

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I was a Christian and a meat eater for many years. How anyone can read the Bible and say that animal welfare is supported by Judeo-Christian values is beyond me. Animal sacrifice was the norm in the Old Testament and although Christians did not continue it, they only rejected it because of HUMAN sacrifice.<br><br><br><br>
As far as politics go, I used to also be a conservative Republican. However I realized that it has been the liberals who have actually led in not only human civil rights, but in initiatives to protect the environment and our natural resources.<br><br><br><br>
The present administration cares only for maintaining the top spot in the world for the United States economically and politically. They are willing to do whatever it takes to maintain that standing whether it be through starting wars or de-regulation of industry. The trade practices of the U.S. with countries that have horrible records for both human and animals welfare shows that the only thing this administration cares about is the almighty dollar and as I said Amerca's standing as "world leader" economically and politically. Why should the AW or AR groups allign themselves with these people?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Sevenseas</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I believe a big problem in some parts of the American AW/AR movement is the separation of animal rights from other political issues.</div>
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<br><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/yes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":yes:"><br><br><br><br>
I couldn't agree more. This is just another civil rights battle, and I think the AR movement, in particular, would be wise to invest more time and effort in focusing America's collective consciousness on the obvious parallels. A group of arguably sentient beings have been arbitrarily deemed unworthy of full consideration because of certain (minimal) biological differences between them and the group in power.... Sound familiar?<br><br><br><br>
Correlating animal rights to the Disablism movement would be particularly profound in that it would help to diffuse the standard argument that sentience = ability to communicate verbally. It's difficult to argue that it's ok to torture and kill human beings with severe disabilities (unable to speak, write, indicate 'yes' or 'no', point to pictures, etc. yet clearly aware of their surroundings and able to express basic emotions) simply for the comfort and preference of the rest of us. They don't lose the basic rights of 'personhood' because they can't and, for all intents and purposes, never will be able to communicate verbally. Now compare their level of awareness to that of cows, pigs, chickens. They, too, are clearly aware of their surroundings and able to express basic emotions. Why, then, are they denied the basic rights of 'personhood?' Is determination of 'personhood' on the basis of species any less arbitrary than determination of 'personhood' on the basis of race or gender or sexual orientation or ability? No, that argument won't work on everyone -- there are still plenty of racists, misogynists, and homophobes in the U.S. -- but it's undeniably powerful; and it's much more significant than a comparison between non-human animals and infants because (most) infants posess the potential for verbal communication, whereas people with such severe disabilities, like animals, do not.<br><br><br><br>
As a civil rights issue, animal rights is well aligned with both the left and far right. However, I think there's one very practical reason it's an agenda is best served by the left. Our country has a strong bias against extremism. The general populus tends to discount anything that leans too far in either direction. And while civil rights in general resonates well with leftists of all sorts -- from centerist liberals to democratic socialists, it only plays equally well with libertarians and anarchists on the right. Libertarianism and anarchism are considered extreme. Centrist liberalism and liberalism are not. Therefore, if the goal of the AR movement is to gain popular support for animal rights and thereby put an end to speciesism, they, like the other civil rights movements before them, are much more likely to succeed if they pander to the left. If for no other reason than because the left can offer them a moderate, mainstream platform for their agenda while the right cannot....<br><br><br><br>
Emily
 

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I understand the generalization - and I wasn't debating. I was just pointing out the ways conservativism and Christianity can fit perfectly with Animal Rights.<br><br><br><br>
To puppyluv - I am Catholic, not Jewish, and as far as the New Testament is concerned animal sacrifices are useless. "Prayer for the forgiveness of sins." ta-da.<br><br><br><br>
And I can't stand the "Jesus was a vegetarian" argument. It can't be historically accurate - consider the times, consider human survival in the wilderness, consider society...<br><br><br><br>
Point is that anyone can be vegan - don't prejudge or exclude based on other political values. The Animal Rights movement isn't an exclusive club, and should be detached from politics as much as possible...without hurting the movement. Otherwise you run the risk of having another animal rights organization driven by political agendas...(coughcough)
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>GNUmoe</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I understand the generalization - and I wasn't debating. I was just pointing out the ways conservativism and Christianity can fit perfectly with Animal Rights.<br><br><br><br>
To puppyluv - I am Catholic, not Jewish, and as far as the New Testament is concerned animal sacrifices are useless. "Prayer for the forgiveness of sins." ta-da.<br><br><br><br>
And I can't stand the "Jesus was a vegetarian" argument. It can't be historically accurate - consider the times, consider human survival in the wilderness, consider society...<br><br><br><br>
Point is that anyone can be vegan - don't prejudge or exclude based on other political values. The Animal Rights movement isn't an exclusive club, and should be detached from politics as much as possible...without hurting the movement. Otherwise you run the risk of having another animal rights organization driven by political agendas...(coughcough)</div>
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Well I certainly do agree with all that.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>pinkrokker</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/yes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":yes:"><br><br><br><br>
I couldn't agree more. This is just another civil rights battle, and I think the AR movement, in particular, would be wise to invest more time and effort in focusing America's collective consciousness on the obvious parallels. A group of arguably sentient beings have been arbitrarily deemed unworthy of full consideration because of certain (minimal) biological differences between them and the group in power.... Sound familiar?</div>
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No, it doesn't, as the sentient beings in the civil rights movement spoke for themselves, and spearheaded their own movement. Quit calling us animals. Thanks!
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>puppyluv</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I was a Christian and a meat eater for many years. How anyone can read the Bible and say that animal welfare is supported by Judeo-Christian values is beyond me. Animal sacrifice was the norm in the Old Testament and although Christians did not continue it, they only rejected it because of HUMAN sacrifice.</div>
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One cannot expect more elightened beliefs to be placed upon an ancient people.<br><br><br><br>
In Genesis, God's ideal life conditions (Eden) were completly vegan. In the prophecies of Isaiah they appear to return the that state.<br><br>
But we are a stubborn people and need to be brought slowly to a place of higher thinking. As you read through the bible and history itself, you see how people went from stoning any and everyone for whatever crime, to insted an "eye for an eye", where the punishment fits the crime. We then see more merciful punishments, forgiveness, slave rights, slave abolishment, women rights, and so on.<br><br><br><br>
You cannot a 7 year old to learn quantum mechanics before learning multiplication. How would one expect to teach a young people animal rights (extra-species rights) before they learn to appreciate human rights (self-species rights)?<br><br><br><br>
Of course this is getting off-tangent, and there are other threads that discuss vegan christian philosophies.<br><br><br><br>
But I will leave you with this verse. <span style="color:#0000FF;">"As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. All go to the same place, all come from dust, and to dust all return." –Ecc. 3:18-20</span><br><br><br><br>
"All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal." Sounds like animal welfare to me. And even more so, this verse rings of species-wide equality, and this is old testament scripture. Saying that mankind has no advantage over the animals is more radical "animal rights" then most AR people would believe in, and this is straight from Judeo-Christian holy scripture.<br><br><br><br>
I fully believe that "Christian values" support the veganism movement, but as I said, we are a young people, it will take a while before extraspecies rights are believed by the masses.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Tame</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
No, it doesn't, as the sentient beings in the civil rights movement spoke for themselves, and spearheaded their own movement. Quit calling us animals. Thanks!</div>
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Oh snap!
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>kpickell</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
When did PETA promote homophobic AW candidates?</div>
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<br><a href="http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/showthread.php?p=955971" target="_blank">http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...d.php?p=955971</a><br><br>
From Wikipedia: "Santorum described homosexual acts as part of a class of deviant sexual behavior that are 'antithetical to a healthy, stable, traditional family'."
 

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Ah, thanks.<br><br><br><br>
I don't see anything wrong with praising generally-bad people when they make good decisions.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>troub</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
One cannot expect more elightened beliefs to be placed upon an ancient people.<br><br><br><br>
In Genesis, God's ideal life conditions (Eden) were completly vegan. In the prophecies of Isaiah they appear to return the that state.<br><br>
But we are a stubborn people and need to be brought slowly to a place of higher thinking. As you read through the bible and history itself, you see how people went from stoning any and everyone for whatever crime, to insted an "eye for an eye", where the punishment fits the crime. We then see more merciful punishments, forgiveness, slave rights, slave abolishment, women rights, and so on.<br><br><br><br>
You cannot a 7 year old to learn quantum mechanics before learning multiplication. How would one expect to teach a young people animal rights (extra-species rights) before they learn to appreciate human rights (self-species rights)?<br><br><br><br>
Of course this is getting off-tangent, and there are other threads that discuss vegan christian philosophies.<br><br><br><br>
But I will leave you with this verse. <span style="color:#0000FF;">"As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. All go to the same place, all come from dust, and to dust all return." –Ecc. 3:18-20</span><br><br><br><br>
"All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal." Sounds like animal welfare to me. And even more so, this verse rings of species-wide equality, and this is old testament scripture. Saying that mankind has no advantage over the animals is more radical "animal rights" then most AR people would believe in, and this is straight from Judeo-Christian holy scripture.<br><br><br><br>
I fully believe that "Christian values" support the veganism movement, but as I said, we are a young people, it will take a while before extraspecies rights are believed by the masses.</div>
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Thanks for all that, I know it was given in the spirit of enlightenment, but I went 4 years to Bible college, majoring in Sacred Literature (ie The Bible) and my husband graduated with a theology degree and was an ordained minister for a time. We were practicing Christians for many many years. We do not consider ourselves Christians now much less religious. Yes people CAN grow in knowledge and we feel we have grown out of the superstitious way we were brought up as Christians. On a side note--according to Christian beliefs and the Bible itself, the God of the New Testament is the same God as the Old Testament. That would lead one to believe that the God who spoke through the both Old and New Testament writers mandated animal sacrifices. IF it is just a matter of ancient beliefs vs more modern beliefs then where is the authority of Scripture? Yes indeed humans have changed but the very scripture they say they believe is authoritative has NOT changed in over 2000years. Could it be that some humans have become more compassionate than the God say they believe in?
 

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This is a a big tangent from Politics and Animal Rights, and so to keep from further stomping on this thread I started a new one <a href="http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/showthread.php?p=1338985#post1338985" target="_blank">here</a> dealing with the philosophies of judeo-christian beliefs and animal rights.
 

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That rocks my socks, Troub. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/grin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":D">
 

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>>have promoted leftism as a solution to the problems of the world, including animal rights.>><br><br><br><br>
I'm wondering what this "leftism" is that would serve as a solution to the question of animal rights...As I usually think of it, "left" is a nebulous designation that captures a variety of policies, beliefs, and even systems rather than a single maxim or system of prescriptions that can solve a variety of problems.<br><br><br><br>
ebola
 
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