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Quote:
Originally posted by J Fizzle 81

The ALF is trying to slow down that slaughter but taking away the blood money of those corporations. If a window getting smashed costs a fur store $1500, that is $1500 more that cant go towards more murder. Id rather some pervert fur trader loses $1500 then one more fox/mink/chinchilla/rabbit/raccoon/etc get killed that didnt have to.
I suppose it would not bother me if they limited themselves to smashing windows. However, with arson it is only a matter of time before someone gets hurt or killed.

There is also the sense of "missing the point." If it is wrong to commit acts of violence, then it is wrong no matter what the recipient of the violence does.
 

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But it is still advocating property damage to proprty you do not own. Let me ask you, how would you like it if I came over to your house, and broke the windows out of your vehicle or home or worse, set your garage on fire, all because I did not personally agree that your beliefs were the right ones?

Would you consider this act acceptable damage to property? Of course not.

Oops, I just realized this was in Animal Rights and Welfare forum and not the Compost heap / Debate forum. If this debate is to continue any further, lets carry it over to the Compost Heap instead.
 

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Discussion Starter · #63 ·
I guess I hope both.

Legal or not I do hope the ALF keeps doing their thing, and I do hope that no one ever gets killed. Ill leave it at that.
 

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No Robert that is not acceptable but do you not agree if someone kidnapped your child you would do anything to save them, including destroy property to get to where your child is located? Or if you knew some child pornographers were in the neighbourhood but the cops never do anything to stop them, would you feel it ok if someone broke in and destroyed their equipment so they could no longer take pictures of naked little kids?

Acceptability lies within the saving of lives.
 

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Majake, this is where we mainly differ I suppose. A human child is a lot more important to me than an animal ever will be. Let me be clear, I AM all for humane treatment of animals. I am simply against criminals vandalizing and destroying that which is not theirs.

This is not the same as kidnapping children or kiddie porn or anything of that nature. This is a group of criminals destroying the property of someone whose business they do not agree with. if we all went around vandalizing and destroying the property of people everytime we disagreed with them, we'd back to the old west. Some day someone is going to hurt.
 

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Discussion Starter · #66 ·
"this is where we mainly differ I suppose. A human child is a lot more important to me than an animal ever will be. Let me be clear, I AM all for humane treatment of animals."

So, if you are in favor of humane treatment of animals, what are you willing to do to secure that? There is nothing even closely resembling humane treatment in any area where animals are used.

Who is going to get that proper treatment of these animals? Is it going to happen by being " for humane treatment?" It doesn't just happen someone needs to make it happen.

that is why i love the JFK quote, " "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible,make violent revolution inevitable"

The ball is in the court of the abusers, it's up to them to change when so many options are available. It's time blame for these types of actions are laid where they belong and that is not with Activists. To this point, peaceful revolution has failed.

So, I guess what i want to know is what do you think the answer should be? So far it has just been pro and con ALF.

Anyone have some ideas? Maybe someone has an idea that may help save a life!
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by veggiemyte

On this I think we will have to agree to disagree. It gets results and that is what matters. Huntingdon is proof of that and that is what is important.

Unfortunately, there is no way to know if even better results would have been achieved with a different approach, say like that of Vegan Outreach.

I would've become more supportive of AR in HS and probably would've went veg a good five years earlier if I hadn't been influenced by PETA (and the media, with lots of help from PETA and ALF) to believe that AR is a "wacko position" to take.

Vegan Outreach had far more influence on me to go vegetarian and to explore AR than blowing up buildings did. And considering that 99% of animals killed by humans for food, I think spreading veg*nism through POSITIVE pamphlets, tablings, and example can be very effective in saving animals compared to bad PR gaining activities to save a few animals at HLS (not to say that HLS shouldn't be stopped). Only a reasonable, positive message will influence the general public, and it is the long term goal of influencing the general public we should be after.

However, I agree with asking the question of in what circumstances is violence justified, since it has been used in so many revolutions and changes in society that are now so romanticized. If animals are as important to us, as say, babies, should we not have the same criteria?

This mistakenly assumes that without a violent reaction, one does not truly care about change, nor can one be effective at creating change. I feel that in many situations, one may be able to use violence for short term gain, but seldom for the long term gain of winning over people's hearts and minds.

(MLK and Ghandi might be a couple of examples.)
 

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Veggiemyte, I am simply not interested in debating this further. You advocate violence and vandalism against people who do not believe in the same things as yourself. I think people like you are criminals and should be jailed accordingly for advocating and/or participating in such criminal acts. Neither one of us is going to change their stance so to enter into a debate here is fruitless.

You continue with your activities, and being a criminal. Maybe you can even stay one step ahead of the law and not be prosecuted, or worse, get caught by the owners while in the act of performing such a crime. I'll continue being a law abiding citizen.
 

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Discussion Starter · #69 ·
Robert,

That is why i said we will have to agree to disagree.

And what makes you think I take part in any of what i support? I am an old fart and as such, my days of physical escapades are behind me.

apparently I hit some sort of nerve and didn't mean to cause any hard feelings but guess I did. That was not my intention.
 

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Oh, hehehe, you did not cause any hard feelings and did not hit a nerve. On the contrary, I think you and everyone else who believes the same things as you has the right to believe it.

It was just apparent to me that neither of us was going to budge on this issue and so it seemed lkind of pointless that we debate it further.

I do think that advocating violence and vandalism against others' property, and the promotion of same, is akin to conspiracy to comit such acts, and therefore criminal. That's where that comment is based.
 

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that is why i love the JFK quote, " "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible,make violent revolution inevitable"

The ball is in the court of the abusers, it's up to them to change when so many options are available. It's time blame for these types of actions are laid where they belong and that is not with Activists. To this point, peaceful revolution has failed.


If the moral point of the revolution is that violence is a bad thing, then anything other than a peaceful revolution is doomed to fail.

So this is basically where I don't get ALF. I became vegitarian because I had a revelation that violence harms not only the things I am violent to, but myself as a participant in the violence as well. So while ALF may be arguing from an animal rights perspective, they are arguing the same kinds of ends/means analysis that justifies "liberating" Iraq at the wrong end of a gun. They may be representing an animal rights movement, but it one that only pays lip-service the principles that lead me to argue for animal rights.
 

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Quote:
by Robert

Majake, this is where we mainly differ I suppose. A human child is a lot more important to me than an animal ever will be. Let me be clear, I AM all for humane treatment of animals. I am simply against criminals vandalizing and destroying that which is not theirs.
yes Robert, this is the main point of contention, animals do not mean as much to you as a child, but why is your feelings on animals more valid than someone who feels more strongly towards animals? You saying it is ok to do such things for a child but not an animals is the same as someone else saying it is ok do so them for animals but not for a simple disagreement of opinion.

Quote:
by Robert

This is not the same as kidnapping children or kiddie porn or anything of that nature. This is a group of criminals destroying the property of someone whose business they do not agree with. if we all went around vandalizing and destroying the property of people everytime we disagreed with them, we'd back to the old west. Some day someone is going to hurt.
the difference is where each person draws the line on what is acceptable and what is not, this isnt just a disagreement on this issue, like kiddy porn it involves beings that do not have the ability to make an informed decision on whether or not to participate in such practices. You say child, i say any animals that can normally live on its own without the help of humans. Is your line more right than mine? no, nor is mine more right than yours.
 

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Discussion Starter · #74 ·
Kirk,

Here is the link for ALF, take some time and look over the site and maybe it will make their position clearer for you.

http://www.animalliberationfront.com/

Robert,

"I do think that advocating violence and vandalism against others' property, and the promotion of same, is akin to conspiracy to comit such acts, and therefore criminal. That's where that comment is based."

So, does the government, which I have a suspicion you already know. So, in that vein, I suppose your comment is correct.

I think that, being as property and possessions mean little to me, I am always amazed at what they mean to other people. As an Indian, I was brought up to believe that all life was far more valuable than any material possessions. I have no use for big business which puts possession (money) above all life, human or non human animal, plants, environment and all.

That is why I have these radical ideas about this issue. And it goes far beyond just the physical animal abuse. They affects of animal exploitation are so unbelievably far reaching. The pollution involved is unreal.

Do you know there is a huge underground aquafir, I belive in CA, that is totally dry? It has been used to water cattle and now it is dry. They are looking for ways to pipe water from the eastern states out there in the future. Things such as this will affect your children and you will see the ramifications of such things in your lifetime. The torture and abuse, the pollution of ground water and streams, the consumption of resources that cannot be replaced fast enough to meet demand, if ever. The acreage used to feed livestock that could feed 4 times the amount of people, if farmed, this is why i get a bit radical. And in my lifetime I have seen the effects of these things skyrocket.

Didn't mean to write a book, just thought it may help explain why I feel as i do. You can take the hippie out of the 60's but ya can't take the 60's out of the hippie!


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Quote:
Originally posted by majake

yes Robert, this is the main point of contention, animals do not mean as much to you as a child, but why is your feelings on animals more valid than someone who feels more strongly towards animals? You saying it is ok to do such things for a child but not an animals is the same as someone else saying it is ok do so them for animals but not for a simple disagreement of opinion
Majake, are you honestly trying to tell me you think it is okay to destroy that which does not belong to you because you disagree with someone?

Are you also honestly trying to tell me that an animal's life has equal or greater value than that of your own kids?

The issue here is not about kids, and we're getting sidetracked. The issue is people who engage in criminal activity because they disagree with another person's beliefs. If you engage in criminal activity such as vandalism and arson and other crap the extremists get into, then I say jail them and let them rot.

Quote:
the difference is where each person draws the line on what is acceptable and what is not.
Wrong, the difference here is what is lawful and what is unlawful. Vandalizing / destroying someone else's property is a criminal offense. I am amazed that as a reasonable, intelligent human being, that you think this action is acceptable.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Robert

Majake, are you honestly trying to tell me you think it is okay to destroy that which does not belong to you because you disagree with someone?
no, im trying to tell you and help you understand that this isnt a simple disagreement about some stupid mundane issue, this is about living animals, animals which have as much right as you do to live free from captivity.

Quote:
Originally posted by Robert

Are you also honestly trying to tell me that an animal's life has equal or greater value than that of your own kids?
nope, but i dont think that just because an animal is less valuable that we should be able to keep them captive and test on them.

Quote:
Originally posted by Robert

The issue here is not about kids, and we're getting sidetracked. The issue is people who engage in criminal activity because they disagree with another person's beliefs. If you engage in criminal activity such as vandalism and arson and other crap the extremists get into, then I say jail them and let them rot.
you are right here Robert, the issue isnt about kids nor is it simply about destroying someone elses property, it is about fighting for the lives of animals which some people feel have a worth greater than that of an science experiment. OR even better, it is about the idea of freedom for ALL animals.

Quote:
Originally posted by Robert

Wrong, the difference here is what is lawful and what is unlawful. Vandalizing / destroying someone else's property is a criminal offense. I am amazed that as a reasonable, intelligent human being, that you think this action is acceptable.
Robert the law is a line between what society has deemed what is acceptable and what is not acceptable, that doesnt mean that the law is moral and just. Like you, im amazed, but im amazed that a human being such as yourself, a human being who enjoys freedom and condemns acts such as slavery, kidnapping and torture, can not empathise with the plight of the freedom of animals from their captors, simply because animals are different than you are.
 

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Majake, I am not against the elimination of animals from factory farms, or being tested on, etc. My problem is simply the advocation of a criminal act to accomplish this. It's a simple concept.. you do not own the property, and therefore have absolutely no right to damage it.

And, for the record, I do not think all ARA's are whackos... but I certainly consider the extremists dangerous criminals who should be locked up and left to rot in jail.

ETA... actually, this is turning into a debate Majake which really does not beloing in here. I think it should go over to the Heap bud.
 

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i dont advocate criminal activity to accomplish it either, i just dont condem it if i feel the cause is just.

wheres a mod when you need one?
 

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Hahaha, aren't you the mod here?


Majake, I would have very little problem beating the hell out of anyone who destroyed anything I worked for. One of my rights is to protect my property and my family. I worked hard for what I have, and i'll be damned if anyone is going to take that away from me or my family. That's why I get so worked up about people advocating it is okay to destroy somethng that you do not own.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Robert

This is a group of criminals destroying the property of someone whose business they do not agree with.
Well yeah. If their business is murdering people, I kind of think we should work to destroy their business. It's not a matter of disagreeing with their politics, it's a matter of saving lives.

Quote:
Originally posted by Robert

One of my rights is to protect my property and my family. I worked hard for what I have, and i'll be damned if anyone is going to take that away from me or my family.
What about people who don't have a family to protect them? You're saying screw them. Some of us feel we should stand up for those who have no family.

Proverbs 31:8 "Stand up for those who have no voice -- those who are appointed to destruction."
 
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