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So I'm curious...I don't neccicerily suppourt the tactics employed by the likes of the A.L.F or the more aggresive Animal Rights Millitia but I want to play devil's advocate. If veganism is truely a suffrage/anti-oppression movement like Abolition in the 19th century, Women's rights, the civil rights movement, Anti-apartheid and LGBT rights then do you honestly believe that it can be accomplished without some kind of civil disobidience? The kind that sometimes involving illegal activity, property destruction or violence? Because quite a few of those other succesful past liberation movements on some level had one or more elements acting as a "radical fringe" to make the more peaceful advocates more acceptable to the mainstream. Just curious to get your thoughts on this.<br><br>
I hear Gary Francione and others critisize this part of the AR movement but I've never actually seen him or anyone address this point.
 

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'Lo Spj <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br>
Gandhi, the master non violent civil disobedience, said that "any good that comes from violence will be temporary but the harm it does is permanent". His son, Arun, added 'rights without responsibilities' to his fathers list of 'Seven Deadly Social Sins'.<br><br>
Don't know this for sure but Arun Gandhi had probably become aware of the 'Right by Might -v- Right by Contract' quandry. That loosely boiling down to the fact that rights are not worth the paper they are written on unless there is a method of enforcing rights. The only method of enforcement against those who broach the rights of others, ultimately, being violence.<br><br>
Rights <span style="text-decoration:underline;">with</span> responsibilities is dodgy enough ground. It does allow for rights be to established on a 'mutual benefit' basis though. Kinda like "you respect my right not to have my stuff taken and I respect your right not to have a base ball put across your knees" or, with a slant towards responsibilities, "I accept my responsibility to help you in times of need, you accept your responsibility to not hinder me in doing so by beating me up or taking my stuff etc ..".<br><br>
Rights <span style="text-decoration:underline;">without</span> responsibilities is all "you can't do this or that to me, or those, and I/we give you nothing in return" by penalty of some from of violence (fines, imprisonment, etc ..) if they don't. Bum deal, that, from the other fellahs PoV<br><br>
All that leaves animal rights activists in the role of the proverbial one legged man in the proverbial arse kicking competition, basicaly.<br><br>
Personaly, due the hopelessness of the above 'negotiating' position, I believe that animals should NOT have rights.<br><br>
Thing there being that animals would not need rights if we veg*ans were better at promoting, to others, the benefits to self of refraining from doing animals wrong.<br><br>
It is a kind of non violent civil disobedience to simply refuse to be silenced from sharing with others what we as veg*ns know?
 

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By definition, civil disobedience must be civil. Hence it, by definition, excludes things like property destruction and violence. If people want to try to use these tactics to promote animal rights, they would have to set fire to the homes of all their friends and relatives who eat meat, since they are each responsible for the torture of hundreds of animals.<br><br>
To be successful, the animal rights movement must follow the path of Martin Luther King, and not that of Osama Bin Laden.
 

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Riot Nrrrd
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One oft ignored aspect of the discussion: violent, uncivil, stupid is EXACTLY how AR opponents <b>want</b> advocates to act. Much easier to portray themselves as the victims than acknowledge their complicity in victimizing. Why should advocates actually <b>help</b> the bad guys by playing their game? We should be engaged against misdirection, not enabling it. A good chunk of anti-AR rhetoric is basically endless repetition of the proverbial 'pay no mind to the man behind the curtain'. Everythings OK. No worries. But aren't those animal people scary?<br><br>
Framing your opponent as the 'bad guy' is a basic organizing tactic. <b>Our</b> bad guys are not unaware of this.<br><br>
Real life examples:<br>
Throwing blood on people wearing fur: Perhaps THE definitive example of AR activism. IRL it seems to have actually happened <b>once</b> (it's otherwise an urban legend). Once. ONE TIME! How much discussion has been wasted on a fantasy?<br><br>
Fran Trutt: In 1989 Fran Trutt placed a pipe bomb under the car of the head of US Surgical, a medical equipment company that was using live animals to test and demonstrate some of its products. Being the target of a terroristic act conveniently changed US Surgical in public opinion from victimizers to victims. Some interesting things were discovered during the prosecution of the case against Trutt. Two people who were instrumental to the events were actually working for US Surgical. They recruited Trutt. They urged her on when she wavered in her resolve. They paid for the device. They even gave her a ride to the parking lot to physically place the bomb. All to set up a PR windfall for US Surgical. Which changed the conversation.
 

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Well, there's still much room in civil disobidience that may actually bring the message home without breaking the law. One needs to find the gaps and be creative <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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Civil disobedience doesn't have to break the law. Leafleting itself is civil disobedience of a form. It's confronting someone with a new idea, or perhaps their own ethics with a mirror held up to it in a way they hadn't considered.
 

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Herbivorous Urchin
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Some laws in some states are a shade of gray, and some direct action is not necessarily illegal, in some states. Just saying.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>River</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3056210"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Some laws in some states are a shade of gray, and some direct action is not necessarily illegal, in some states. Just saying.</div>
</div>
<br>
Specifically what type of direct action isn't necessarily illegal?
 

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i really think it can't. or it will take much longer. other races would still be dreaming if there was no civil disobedience :/ same goes for any other change
 

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Lol at 8 replies and 288 views<br><br>
Gary Francione is a pacifist. He's said this in a number of places and this is why he'll always be opposed to violent tactics. As for things like breaking into labs and freeing animals, I'm not sure what his position is. It's probably for the best that he stays ideologically "pure" and opposed to those sorts of things. As for violent and illegal methods, I'm completely ideologically in support of them. I used to have a picture of John Brown as my avatar and it's because I so respect his moral clarity and his actions against the extreme evil that was slavery. To some extent this has to be the same spirit of progressive movements--to always see the higher good over what society blithely accepts as the standard good.<br><br>
As for Ghandi, who someone mentioned earlier in the thread, if you look at the history of the Indian Independence Movement, the greatest advancements often came as a result of violent action. The Sepoy Rebellion, for instance, resulted in more Indian integration into the government, Indian admittance into civil service, and greater religious tolerance. The final move towards independence, as well, was due to a riot in the wake of WWII. Gandhi was dead at that point and independence probably would not have occurred if not for the violent riots, which exploited British war fatigue.<br><br>
While I think nonviolent leaders are important as figureheads and for morale, much of the heavy lifting is done by the John Brown's of the world.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Forster</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3056228"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Specifically what type of direct action isn't necessarily illegal?</div>
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strikes, protests, boycotts
 

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Herbivorous Urchin
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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Forster</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3056228"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Specifically what type of direct action isn't necessarily illegal?</div>
</div>
<br>
There are some bylaws and vague laws that say, in some counties and states, that if you feel an animal is severe danger or being treated severely wrong, you may remove it from its situation. It doesn't necessarily say what kind of animal, or stipulate by species.
 

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I choose to engage in legal activism, personally. But I understand why many activists would choose other routes. I will not condemn them for that.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Eugene</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3034460"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
By definition, civil disobedience must be civil. Hence it, by definition, excludes things like property destruction and violence. If people want to try to use these tactics to promote animal rights, they would have to set fire to the homes of all their friends and relatives who eat meat, since they are each responsible for the torture of hundreds of animals.<br><br>
To be successful, the animal rights movement must follow the path of Martin Luther King, and not that of Osama Bin Laden.</div>
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Your logic is flawed.<br><br>
Or<br><br>
You're being intentially hyperbolic. You're not actually addressing the real issue. You've set up a red herring and you're obfuscating the discussion by likening ARAs to terrorists. It's not accurate and it's not honest.<br><br>
I do not support any kind of arson, but you simply cannot compare the arson of a slaughterhouse to the arson of a meat-eater's home.<br><br>
For starters, destroying a slaughterhouse would be more likely to cause severe economic damage to the meat industry whereas doing the same to the home of a meat-eater would have zero impact on the industry.<br><br>
Second, no one lives in a slaughterhouse. The function of the building is to kill. That's it's only function. It has no useful purpose whatsoever. Destroying it is a statement against killing. But the home of a meat-eater is a home. It's purpose is to shelter. It can shelter meat-eaters or vegans (and pets too). Destroying a home sends no specific statement. There's no political purpose in it.<br><br>
Like I said, I don't condone arson. But I will acknowledge that ARAs who do it have a goal. They do it for a reason. That reason is generally to prevent animal suffering and/or death. They often aim to do economic damage to the industries that cause harm to animals. And/or they seek to send a message to the most powerful people who can change things. There's simply no good reason to set fire to Average Joe's house.<br><br>
But most importantly, <b>the majority of illegal direct action in the name of animals is NOT arson. More often it's cutting open locks and cages and setting animals free... that sort of thing.</b><br><br>
So, you can talk about arson if you want, but please don't overgeneralize all AR "property destruction" as arson. The conversation ought to be more about whether or not cruel cages constitute the kind of property that we want our laws and morals to protect.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Forster</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3056228"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Specifically what type of direct action isn't necessarily illegal?</div>
</div>
<br>
Wikipedia has a lot of information about direct action:<br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_action" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_action</a>
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Eugene</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3034460"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
By definition, civil disobedience must be civil.</div>
</div>
<br>
You're incorrect about the word "civil" in that context. Civil here just refers to the citizens (as opposed to the military I believe). It's not referring to politeness.
 

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Arson is an act of terrorism.<br><br>
Ingrid Newkirk and Bruce Friedrich publically speak out in favor of arson, and support for arson is in PETA's FAQ on their website.<br><br>
Also, the speakers at the national AR conference organized by FARM voted to give the AR Hall of Fame award to Rod Coronado. The only thing this guy is known for is spending several years in prison for arson, and now going around the country giving speeches advocating that other people engage in arson just as he did.<br><br>
Again I repeat, we need to follow the path of Martin Luther King, and not the path of Osama Bin Laden.
 

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From Black Past:<br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">To this day, Dr. Martin Luther King remains a controversial symbol of the African American civil rights struggle, revered by many for his martyrdom on behalf of nonviolence and condemned by others for his militancy and insurgent views.</div>
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<br><a href="http://www.blackpast.org/?q=aah/king-martin-luther-jr-1929-1968" target="_blank">http://www.blackpast.org/?q=aah/king...r-jr-1929-1968</a>
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Eugene</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3056447"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
Again I repeat, we need to follow the path of Martin Luther King, and not the path of Osama Bin Laden.</div>
</div>
<br>
This makes me cringe.<br><br>
It is EXTREMELY insulting to victims of real terrorist attacks to compare liberating animals and burning down the property where animal cruelty takes place to flying planes into buildings and killing thousands.
 

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Arson has the potential to kill people.<br><br>
And with the SHAC campaign, the targets of property destruction were no longer limited to companies that were involved in animal abuse. Simply having a financial affiliation with a company which does business with a company which does business with HLS was enough to get placed on the target list. For example, they smashed the windows of <i>Bed Bath and Beyond</i> because this store was believed to have some remote affiliation with a financial company which had loaned money to HLS.<br><br>
Homes of employees of various companies were targeted too, and SHAC even went so far as to publish on their website the names of the children of the employees, and where they go to school.<br><br>
Below is an excerpt from the Wikipedia page on SHAC:<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">SHAC's modus operandi is known as secondary and tertiary targeting. Activists engage in direct action—ranging from lawful protests to intimidation, harassment, and violent attacks—not only against HLS, its employees, and its employees' families, but also against secondary and tertiary targets such as HLS's business partners, and their business partners, insurers, caterers, cleaners, children's nursery schools, and office suppliers.[21] A New York yacht club, for example, was covered in red paint because members of the club worked for Carr Securities, which traded in HLS shares.[22] The campaign drove down HLS's profits, suppressed its share price, and made it difficult to find business and financial partners.[23]<br><br>
The Daily Mail cites as examples of SHAC activism sending letters to the neighbours of a man who did business with HLS, warning parents to keep their children away from him, falsely claiming that he had raped the letter writer when she was a child. A woman in her 60s, who worked for a company targeted by SHAC, had every window in her house smashed during the night and found an effigy hanging outside her home, which read "R.I.P. Mary, Animal Abusing *****".[24] The SHAC website said it published names and addresses only so that people could protest within the law,[25] but testimony to the British House of Commons in 2003 included excerpts from a document reported to have come from SHAC, which advised activists on tactics for protests outside targets' homes. These included throwing rape alarms in roof guttering at night, setting off fireworks, and ordering taxis and pizzas.[26] In 2001, HLS managing director in the UK, Brian Cass, was beaten outside his home by three masked men — animal rights activist David Blenkinsop was sentenced to three years in prison for the attack — and HLS marketing director Andrew Gay was attacked on his doorstep with a chemical spray to his eyes that left him temporarily blinded.</div>
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Source:<br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Huntingdon_Animal_Cruelty#Secondary_and_tertiary_targeting" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Hu...iary_targeting</a><br><br><br>
The response of the AR community to such tactics:<br>
The speakers at FARM's national AR conference gave SHAC president Kevin Jonas the AR Hall of Fame Award.<br><br>
Kevin Jonas has subsequently been sent to prison.<br><br>
If you don't want to be compared to terrorists, then stop supporting terrorism.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">much of the heavy lifting is done by the John Brown's of the world</div>
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I'm not certain what part of the raid on Harper's Ferry constitutes 'heavy lifting'. Much of the impact of that event grew out of public reaction to the events as they played out and the aftermath (Brown's trial and execution). The events as they played out being a very different thing than those planned by Brown. His place in history has a great deal to do with circumstance rather than planned strategy.
 

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Eugene, you don't need to tell me anything about the actions of SHAC, ALF, or any other direct action group. I am extremely well-educated when it comes to this topic.<br><br>
I still think the comparison is disgusting, and I think it is an insult to the memory of those who die in terrorist attacks.
 
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