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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A vegetarian friend of mine told me that they are going to start eating fish when they go out instead of dairy because they think it would be healthier for them. This person eats vegan at home, but has to go out for work and they live in a very veg unfriendly town.<br><br>
I told them that I didn't think there was much of a difference, as far as cruelty and environmental issues.<br><br>
What do you think?
 

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If she eats fish, she isn't a vegetarian.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>LilBigBug</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2958765"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
If she eats fish, she isn't a vegetarian.</div>
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I agree here , however its her choice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
It's a he and he has not eaten fish for years. Right now, he is a vegetarian and only eats dairy when out.
 

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My apologies. I don't know why my brain read that he was a she. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p"> Even he eats dairy while he's out, he's still a vegetarian. Unless he's an ovo-vegetarian?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>LilBigBug</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2958779"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Even he eats dairy while he's out, he's still a vegetarian. Unless he's an ovo-vegetarian?</div>
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Right, and he'd still be a vegetarian! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/grin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":D"><br><br>
Delicioso, in some ways, I agree with your sentiment.
 

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Given that a cow can produce a very large amount of milk over her lifetime, and eating the flesh of a fish requires the death of an individual every time, I think there's a pretty big ethical difference there.<br><br>
I don't think it's a good trade-off, and I don't really see the need for a trade-off. You can figure out something vegan at almost any restaurant with some effort -- you aren't guaranteed it will be something tasty and satisfying every time, but I don't really see how killing a fish just because a salad is too boring is a viable alternative for someone who cares about animal lives. If it's for health reasons, it still doesn't make sense unless this person is eating at restaurants very frequently.
 

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In terms of suffering, a fish dies once while a cow suffers her whole life and is then killed. That's the point many make in this case.<br><br><br>
I agree that it's not a good or even necessary trade off for this person to make, by and large.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>RunnerVeggie</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2958789"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Given that a cow can produce a very large amount of milk over her lifetime, and eating the flesh of a fish requires the death of an individual every time, I think there's a pretty big ethical difference there.<br><br>
I don't think it's a good trade-off, and I don't really see the need for a trade-off. You can figure out something vegan at almost any restaurant with some effort -- you aren't guaranteed it will be something tasty and satisfying every time, but I don't really see how killing a fish just because a salad is too boring is a viable alternative for someone who cares about animal lives. If it's for health reasons, it still doesn't make sense unless this person is eating at restaurants very frequently.</div>
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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>RunnerVeggie</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2958789"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Given that a cow can produce a very large amount of milk over her lifetime, and eating the flesh of a fish requires the death of an individual every time, I think there's a pretty big ethical difference there.<br><br>
I don't think it's a good trade-off, and I don't really see the need for a trade-off. You can figure out something vegan at almost any restaurant with some effort -- you aren't guaranteed it will be something tasty and satisfying every time, but I don't really see how killing a fish just because a salad is too boring is a viable alternative for someone who cares about animal lives. If it's for health reasons, it still doesn't make sense unless this person is eating at restaurants very frequently.</div>
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This.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Here is his predicament: He often doesn't know where he will be eating lunch until the last minute. If he can get something filling and vegan, he does. If he can't, he will get the (usually single) vegetarian dish, which is always something cheesy, like lasagna. He's concerned about his cholesterol, as heart disease runs in his family. He understands that he will no longer be vegetarian is he eats fish, but this isn't about what he calls himself. It's about cruelty, the environment and his health.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>delicioso</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2958795"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Here is his predicament: He often doesn't know where he will be eating lunch until the last minute. If he can get something filling and vegan, he does. If he can't, he will get the (usually single) vegetarian dish, which is always something cheesy, like lasagna. He's concerned about his cholesterol, as heart disease runs in his family. He understands that he will no longer be vegetarian is he eats fish, but this isn't about what he calls himself. It's about cruelty, the environment and his health.</div>
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If he cares about those 3 things, managing a vegan meal is clearly the best choice. Almost any place a vegan meal can be managed, it may not be the BEST meal (it may be a plain salad), still it can usually be done and then when one has control over what one eats, a better meal can be made.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>*AHIMSA*</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2958800"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
If he cares about those 3 things, managing a vegan meal is clearly the best choice. Almost any place a vegan meal can be managed, it may not be the BEST meal (it may be a plain salad), still it can usually be done and then when one has control over what one eats, a better meal can be made.</div>
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Yep.
 

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The items on most menus which contain sea creatures aren't always free of other animal products either, like there may be dairy in sauces or chicken broth in the rice etc. So, why not just special order a vegan meal if special ordering would be needed to fit in his parameters already?
 

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I think perhaps from a health point of veiw it depends on the individual dishes - I'm not sure either is inherently healthier because the fish could be battered with chips - or it could be steamed with salad - and the same does for dishes with dairy.<br><br>
From an ethical point of veiw "trading off" morals doesn't work. If something is wrong, you should not do it, it isn't okay to do it if you stop doing something worse. It's morality not pokemon cards.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I'd rather eat nothing than something nonvegan, but he isn't me. He isn't willing to eat plain salads, or be seen as weird by his coworkers, so for him, it is often going to be fish or dairy at lunchtime.<br><br>
Is one really worse than the other? And are certain types of fish better than others, less destructive to the environment, etc?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>delicioso</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2958795"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
He understands that he will no longer be vegetarian is he eats fish, but this isn't about what he calls himself. It's about cruelty, the environment and his health.</div>
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Fish isn't necessarily a better solution for any of those reasons (cruelty, the environment, or health). Fish that are farmed may experience cruelty similar to other animals, and I do think there is inherent cruelty in taking an animal's life that deserves consideration. And of course there are potential environmental issues with wild-caught fish.<br><br>
If you're going to claim that "humane" killing is better than potential cruelty in dairy production, why not suggest that your friend eat chicken or beef as well? Is there any reason to think that a fish is a lesser being than a chicken or cow? Ethically, I would not eat meat even if I knew those animals had the best life <i>ever</i> before they were killed. You also really can't know whether the fish, chicken, or beef you might order at a restaurant was humanely treated and environmentally responsible anyway.<br><br>
As far as health goes, fish is not a great solution, especially at a restaurant because you don't know where it's coming from and mercury is a huge problem. Plus, as AHIMSA mentioned, it may be cooked with butter, cream, etc. And as I said before, if he's not eating out frequently, it's not really going to matter as far as his cholesterol goes. If he wants the health benefits of eating fish, how about a vegan DHA capsule instead?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>delicioso</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2958826"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
He isn't willing to eat plain salads, or be seen as weird by his coworkers, so for him, it is often going to be fish or dairy at lunchtime.</div>
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I think this person is silly, childish and unreasonable and would dismiss him as such at this point. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p"><br><br>
Why are you musing on this so much? What has it stirred up for you?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>delicioso</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2958833"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Is it less ethical to eat fish than it is to eat dairy?</div>
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There are discussions here on VB about that.<br><br>
It depends on if you are looking at overall suffering and cruelty or the loss of a single life.<br><br>
Ultimately, it's of little consequence to me, as they are BOTH unethical by my standard.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>delicioso</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2958833"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Is it less ethical to eat fish than it is to eat dairy?</div>
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What is your answer if your replace fish with chicken or cow?
 
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