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  Topic Review (Newest First)
09-06-2017 08:09 AM
silva I just want to quickly add that my comments are really based on the US. I have no place to infer my thoughts on other countries (or maybe parts of US even?)
09-05-2017 05:09 PM
Jamie in Chile Rambling a bit there. The other thing I think some of you might be interested in is the epidemic of strays in Chile. It is much worse than other countries I have lived in or visited. It is so bad that you cannot really go out for a jog or cycle in many places without getting yapped out. I have had dogs yapping at my heels constantly, very occassionally there are 4 or 5 of them and it is a bit scary, I have been bitten 2 or 3 times, but just little nips never properly trying to bite me really, these "bites" don't even break the skin, or not much, they are not using the teeth. Now I think about it, aggressive dogs I haven't had so much lately, maybe I was unlucky in the past.

Dogs are great bluffers. They bark like hell chasing me and then I stop dead and turn around at look at them and that shuts them up. If I feel in danger I occassionally shout at them or charge at them they usually back down. There was one once that just blocked the road stood right in the middle (on a country lane) and didn't give the impression that the charging would be wise, he looked really fierce, and it was a dead end and a fairly private road, so I turned around and chose another route. My previous house it made my really uncomfortable when I used to go jogging just before 7am because I thought I would wake people up.

It's true what they say about dogs, their bark is worse than their bite. I've noticed that the worse barkers tend to be the ones with houses. I sometimes wonder if they are defending their situation and overall the impression I get is that having an owner (or human friend) is generally a preferred situation for a dog. The strays are more meek and often follow me around whereas the ones out front of a property seem to defend that territory. The strays sometimes followed me for hours when I was hill walking. One or two tried to get in the car at the end. I think they are just lonely and want a home.

I am not so sure about cats but I think they are more feral and it depends on their mood or their personality. Our current cat when she is in the house she always looking to get out, and when she is out she always seems to be looking to get in.

One of our cats used to bring me dead mice and other animals and once even a rabbit and leave them at the front of my office door, always precisely in the middle in front of the door, which left no doubt that it was meant as an offering. I had no idea how to stop this. The only thing I could think of was to try shouting at her and ignoring her whenever she used to do it.

In our last house the kids would not play outside the house because there were loose dogs there all the time so they would just get scared and refuse to play outside. The current place is different because it is a closed, gated, private "condominio" and they have a rule against dogs as as soon as one get loose (which is often) someone sends a WhatsApp photo of the dog to try and shame the owners into chasing it down.

We have had three pets here. The way it works here is that cats have kittens etc and they get offered for free to any takers. I don't like this either because I wonder if that is cruel to separate mothers and babies. But the alternative is to live with a multitide of cats, or neuter of animals, neither of which appeals to me, and such uncomfortable choices makes me again question the wisdom of having pets. Our (small) dog, Lucas, ran off when I opened the garden gate briefly. We never saw him again. I honestly don't know whether something happened to him or he just wanted out. One of the cats we still have, the other disappeared after being allowed to roam. It's possible a dog got her.

It is a cruel world out there. I've often swerved to avoid hitting dogs while out driving. Some are pretty careless. They cross all the roads except the motorways. I have also seen dead dogs by the side of the road a handful of times and even seen two hit by a car just metres away from me. I think both of these were fatal, I know one was because I went back to check. I have dragged dead animals out of the road a few times when out cycling. You leave them by the side of the road and I don't know what happens to them then but the next time you pass by the road they are gone.
09-05-2017 04:42 PM
Jamie in Chile The article makes some good points but on the other hand it seems unfair to not allow animals to roam, it's like a form of captivity in a way. We in our family let pets roam outside. It seems really unfair not to do so otherwise. The ones we have had have pent up energy in the house it's obvious they need to be outside. Our situation is a bit different, since we live in the country. I think the ideal situation is a house with a garden at the back and a forest at the back of them with no dangers around. In that situation, it's easier to say it's ethical to live with an animal. In an urban environment however, trapping an animal at home or walking around with on the leash seems somewhat dubious and arguably even runs contradictary to vegan values. I saw these comics/images once and what they had done was reversed the roles of humans and animals to illustrate animal suffering, for example showing pigs operating a slaughterhouse and humans going to the slaughter. Pets were included, for example they had a picture of a dog with a human on a leash and the human doing poop on the floor outside.

Not letting animals roam free feels wrong, but opening the door to your city house and letting your pet wander off into the city traffic doesn't feel right either. I think in general I am skeptical about pets in cities, but can I really criticise someone in a city that adopted a stray that was already in a city, assuming the animal in effect chose to move into the house and had a better situation. I am not so sure about that, I wonder whether something has gone wrong with our society in a way when children and animals can't roam free, only human animals. But perhaps the issue here of whether to let animals roam has really been created by breeding for pets in the first place, that's the issue that's need to stop.

I don't like the idea of pets personally, the reason we have pets is because my wife and daughter wanted it, it would not have been my choice.
09-04-2017 04:15 PM
silva
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie in Chile View Post
Silva what do you mean about fighting for indoor only laws? Are you saying it should be illegal to take a cat (or any pet) outside, even on a leash? Or do you mean it should be illegal to take them off the leash in an urban areas (except perhaps in designated areas like a park of section of a park). Or just illegal to let them roam in general on their own? Would you indoor only laws apply only to urban areas, or everywhere?

I found the below article. I am not sure if you would broadly agree with it.

http://www.calvinspaws.com/info/file?file=18081.pdf
That link is exactly right! I will however concede to knowing the US. I do have to say the UK seems quite different, so I limit my thoughts to the USA.
As to walking on a leash, or in quarentined area, of course I'm ok with that! I tried a leash on 3 of mine and they didn't care for it, actually wanted back inside.
The dangers far outway any good. There are outdoor cats around me that are fixed, fed and given places to shelter (hopefully). Sometimes that's the best we can do.
If you ever work in a rescue I can't imagine not feeling this way.
Cats are legally property so you risk getting sued if you trap a cat to have them altered. Peoples cats get pregnant and kittens put in rescues. Worse, male cats travel miles getting ferals preganant
09-04-2017 03:07 PM
Jamie in Chile Silva what do you mean about fighting for indoor only laws? Are you saying it should be illegal to take a cat (or any pet) outside, even on a leash? Or do you mean it should be illegal to take them off the leash in an urban areas (except perhaps in designated areas like a park of section of a park). Or just illegal to let them roam in general on their own? Would you indoor only laws apply only to urban areas, or everywhere?

I found the below article. I am not sure if you would broadly agree with it.

http://www.calvinspaws.com/info/file?file=18081.pdf
09-04-2017 01:37 AM
Spudulika
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombiesprinkles View Post

I've noticed that a lot of people (I'm not necessarily talking about posters here) act like they think it's *cool* to say they prefer animals to people. Well, of course they do. It is much easier to have a relationship with a being who doesn't talk back and who you don't have to argue with and where you get to just be the boss. Humans love it but the animals don't.
I agree with your first point but not your second. I don't think animals 'don't love' being with humans; if cared for well, I think they do love it. The dogs I see every day - in people's homes, out in the woods or by the seaside - are having a fantastic life and loving every minute of it (at least if I can read basic behavioural cues). My cats go out (this is the norm in the UK, I understand it isn't in the States) and come back every day chirruping and onto my lap they go. They demonstrate every sign that they are having a great life and loving it. Whether or not this is relevant to the bigger ethical question of whether we should have pets or not, is another matter.
09-03-2017 02:56 PM
silva
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombiesprinkles View Post
They don't like having their reproductive organs ripped out and being called by human names and eating slaughtered meat that has been compressed into dry kibble from off of our kitchen floors and dogs don't like being tugged around by the neck at the park. It is impossible to keep a nonhuman animal captive in your home without also supporting the pet industry so I can see a valid argument to be made on the other side of it being considered acceptable as long as it's rescue.

I've noticed that a lot of people (I'm not necessarily talking about posters here) act like they think it's *cool* to say they prefer animals to people. Well, of course they do. It is much easier to have a relationship with a being who doesn't talk back and who you don't have to argue with and where you get to just be the boss. Humans love it but the animals don't.
With those who can't express themselves we can only measure satisfaction by monitoring health, and using cues from behavior on what makes them 'happier'.
I have rescued and cared for countless cats from the streets, and the woods. They've had parasites of all kinds, ticks of all sorts, diseases that could have been prevented with vaccines. Cats are not wild animals. They have no immunities to the ills that other native species live with, they also have no natural prey.
What you're rallying against is centuries of domestication that have nothing to do with what cats are up against today.
You say they don't want to be spayed? I doubt baby boys want to be circumcised. Or any child want to be kept indoors, made to eat and drink what they dislike. Forced to wear clothes and shoes. Perhaps endure medical treatments. We say we know what's best for them because of the outcome. I can tell you without any uncertainty that the cats I've had had been saved from much pain-from disease, starvation, and predators. From bodies full of parasites, mange, and sores
I spend money on these cats as I have my children.
As of now, there is no solution but to fight for indoor only laws, as well as spay and neuter laws and against breeding

I find it ironic for you to post this as your other posts show you have a choice on whether to save a cat or allow it to be homeless without care.
09-03-2017 01:31 PM
David3
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombiesprinkles View Post
They don't like having their reproductive organs ripped out and being called by human names and eating slaughtered meat that has been compressed into dry kibble from off of our kitchen floors and dogs don't like being tugged around by the neck at the park. It is impossible to keep a nonhuman animal captive in your home without also supporting the pet industry so I can see a valid argument to be made on the other side of it being considered acceptable as long as it's rescue.

I've noticed that a lot of people (I'm not necessarily talking about posters here) act like they think it's *cool* to say they prefer animals to people. Well, of course they do. It is much easier to have a relationship with a being who doesn't talk back and who you don't have to argue with and where you get to just be the boss. Humans love it but the animals don't.

Good points. Propose a solution.
09-03-2017 08:20 AM
zombiesprinkles They don't like having their reproductive organs ripped out and being called by human names and eating slaughtered meat that has been compressed into dry kibble from off of our kitchen floors and dogs don't like being tugged around by the neck at the park. It is impossible to keep a nonhuman animal captive in your home without also supporting the pet industry so I can see a valid argument to be made on the other side of it being considered acceptable as long as it's rescue.

I've noticed that a lot of people (I'm not necessarily talking about posters here) act like they think it's *cool* to say they prefer animals to people. Well, of course they do. It is much easier to have a relationship with a being who doesn't talk back and who you don't have to argue with and where you get to just be the boss. Humans love it but the animals don't.
04-18-2017 09:51 AM
Fromper I'm sorry for your loss. Losing a close companion is never easy, and it sounds like that German Sheppard was a very good friend to you.

But back on topic, when we talk about eventually cutting down breeding to the point of no animals being available for adoption, we really are just talking about theoretical long term. I think we're all in agreement that too many animals are bred as pets, and it'll take decades, at least, to cut out the puppy mills and reduce the numbers that end up in shelters. What happens beyond that point is just theoretical, and probably won't happen in our lifetime. In the mean time, I would assume that we all agree on what changes we should be shooting for in the near term.

--Fromper
04-18-2017 07:42 AM
BlueMts I think some of people should learn the difference between a puppy mill and a devoted reputable registered breeder whose aim is to improve the breed. ie fix problems in the breed like the German Shepherd Association has an elbow and hip program. Like, in Germany and Austria the GSD registered breeders don't breed from a dog that has not passed at least level 1 of Schutshund , like here the dog has to pass a test for elbows, knees, agility,etc but most of all temperament.

A dog or a cat does not need a pedigree to be a devoted companion I am just trying to point out that not all breeding kennels are puppy mills. All puppy mills should be closed and their owners gaoled but not all breeders are bad.

My closest companion( other than my husband) my dearest, most trustworthy, loving and constant friend, my German Shepherd, died today. Not my pet nor my child substitute but my friend and companion. I am heart broken.

I have a genetic illness that is killing me bit by bit by putting holes in my white matter (white part of the brain) so I never go out alone any more but I have had companionship at home and on short walks because my GSD was either with me or if he was outside playing he would come and check on me at least every 15 mins .

Would some of you really wipe out the chance for some people, many of who don't have much mobility, to have the companionship and friendship they have from their companion animals.

Cats and dogs chose to be with humans thousands of years ago. Now those that do suffer ,suffer because of human arrogance and greed and hardheartedness.

If you don't want anymore pets then just stop calling them pets. I've don't think we've ever used the term - expect maybe for the huntsman that lives on the kitchen window- jokingly referred to as "our pet spider"
04-13-2017 08:43 AM
121938
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capstan View Post

If the human race can ever find a way to voluntarily go all-vegan, it can certainly find a way to self-regulate itself in its treatment of pets. Even today, far more good comes out of animal companionship than abuse. There's room enough for all here, including in our homes. Animals do not need to be banished to zoos or preserves, nor driven to extinction.
I think that there may come a time when the world is forced to go 'mostly vegan' because of the dreadful effect of the animal ag industry on the climate. People will be forced to go vegan whether they like it or not, but that doesn't mean the majority of them will have a change of heart or mind. There will still be more than enough brutal, violent people and while meat may not be raised to be eaten by people, there could still be animals that suffer at the hands of humans.
04-13-2017 08:37 AM
121938
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capstan View Post
Why does it have to be an "all-or-nothing" sort of situation? Some control is certainly required, but not absolute control; furthermore, any controls that are needed should be placed on humans, not on the animals. Preventing animal abuse is a matter of regulating people, not animals.

I don't agree that all pets should be neutered and/or spayed. My own dog Fleur is perfectly capable of having puppies, because I see no need to surgically mutilate her for the sake of birth-control. I simply don't allow her into situations where she can be impregnated. No problem. What's needed is responsible behavior, not total control. Some have tried to tell me that spaying her would be a "kindness," so she would never feel her natural urges, but in my view, that's the philosophy of a control-freak. Who am I to say she should never feel horny? Some seem to think that, because we can control animals, we're under some sort of obligation to do so to the fullest extent artificial technology is capable of. What nonsense. That's just human braggadocio. I agree, as long as it causes overpopulation, commercial breeding of pets should be forbidden, but to stop all propagation of pets is an extreme point of view and, in my opinion, as un-vegan as killing them. It's not for vegans to draw a line between the species, and say, "No crossing this line." That isn't what veganism is about. Having pets has never been about the exploitation of animals. Because a few today are creating problems by trying to profit from the creation of a pet 'industry,' does not make pets intrinsically bad. Thinking it does is an overreaction, and trying to legislate a separation between the species is effectively a form of bigotry.


If the human race can ever find a way to voluntarily go all-vegan, it can certainly find a way to self-regulate itself in its treatment of pets. Even today, far more good comes out of animal companionship than abuse. There's room enough for all here, including in our homes. Animals do not need to be banished to zoos or preserves, nor driven to extinction.
If that's your philosophy on not spaying your dog, why are you preventing her from having puppies since that's her biological drive in those moments? Seems to me that she is doomed to periodic episodes of intense frustration.

I've had dogs in the house all my adult life and we've never had puppies or been to blame for someone else having puppies. I had two mares for twenty years, one of them an extremely pretty Anglo-Arab that everyone said I should breed 'because she's so pretty' and neither of them ever gave birth.

And two years ago, a dumped, sick, starving cat took refuge under our porch in the middle of winter and he now lives happily in my apartment with us. He's also neutered although the 'dumpers' took care of that when he was a cute, cuddly kitten, and I think it helps him be happy in the safe, restricted life that he now leads because he isn't subjected to the urges of a complete tomcat.

I'm in agreement with Poppy on this issue and I admire her tremendously for being able to work on the front lines of animal rescue. It must be soul crushing work to see with your own eyes what goes on with animals that people get for all the wrong reasons.
04-12-2017 08:18 PM
Capstan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fromper View Post
I'm surprised to see everyone demonizing Poppy in this thread.

If you're in favor of getting rid of puppy mills and having everyone spay and neuter their dogs and cats to cut down on the unwanted animals, then you're already agreeing with her. What do you think the long term result of those policies would be? If we stop breeding unwanted animals, then there will be none bred at all within a generation. That means some breeds may even go extinct. And I'm sorry, but that's not a bad thing. I'm concerned with the well being of individual animals, not species.

I didn't adopt Flash because I wanted to take in a rabbit. I adopted him because I saw him wandering outdoors with no idea what he was doing or what to eat. There's no doubt in my mind that he wouldn't have lived long enough to die of starvation if I hadn't picked him up and taken him home. He would have been roadkill or something else's dinner within an hour or two.

I am totally opposed to humans breeding animals. Ever. For any purpose. That's the only vegan approach to animals. And yes, it'll result in the extinction of certain types of animals if the entire world ever goes vegan. But that's a long way off, and we might make exceptions for zoos or wildlife preserves to keep the species going if it ever gets that far.

--Fromper
Why does it have to be an "all-or-nothing" sort of situation? Some control is certainly required, but not absolute control; furthermore, any controls that are needed should be placed on humans, not on the animals. Preventing animal abuse is a matter of regulating people, not animals.

I don't agree that all pets should be neutered and/or spayed. My own dog Fleur is perfectly capable of having puppies, because I see no need to surgically mutilate her for the sake of birth-control. I simply don't allow her into situations where she can be impregnated. No problem. What's needed is responsible behavior, not total control. Some have tried to tell me that spaying her would be a "kindness," so she would never feel her natural urges, but in my view, that's the philosophy of a control-freak. Who am I to say she should never feel horny? Some seem to think that, because we can control animals, we're under some sort of obligation to do so to the fullest extent artificial technology is capable of. What nonsense. That's just human braggadocio. I agree, as long as it causes overpopulation, commercial breeding of pets should be forbidden, but to stop all propagation of pets is an extreme point of view and, in my opinion, as un-vegan as killing them. It's not for vegans to draw a line between the species, and say, "No crossing this line." That isn't what veganism is about. Having pets has never been about the exploitation of animals. Because a few today are creating problems by trying to profit from the creation of a pet 'industry,' does not make pets intrinsically bad. Thinking it does is an overreaction, and trying to legislate a separation between the species is effectively a form of bigotry.

If the human race can ever find a way to voluntarily go all-vegan, it can certainly find a way to self-regulate itself in its treatment of pets. Even today, far more good comes out of animal companionship than abuse. There's room enough for all here, including in our homes. Animals do not need to be banished to zoos or preserves, nor driven to extinction.
04-12-2017 02:29 PM
Fromper I'm surprised to see everyone demonizing Poppy in this thread.

If you're in favor of getting rid of puppy mills and having everyone spay and neuter their dogs and cats to cut down on the unwanted animals, then you're already agreeing with her. What do you think the long term result of those policies would be? If we stop breeding unwanted animals, then there will be none bred at all within a generation. That means some breeds may even go extinct. And I'm sorry, but that's not a bad thing. I'm concerned with the well being of individual animals, not species.

I didn't adopt Flash because I wanted to take in a rabbit. I adopted him because I saw him wandering outdoors with no idea what he was doing or what to eat. There's no doubt in my mind that he wouldn't have lived long enough to die of starvation if I hadn't picked him up and taken him home. He would have been roadkill or something else's dinner within an hour or two.

I am totally opposed to humans breeding animals. Ever. For any purpose. That's the only vegan approach to animals. And yes, it'll result in the extinction of certain types of animals if the entire world ever goes vegan. But that's a long way off, and we might make exceptions for zoos or wildlife preserves to keep the species going if it ever gets that far.

--Fromper
04-06-2017 07:06 AM
Poppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by beegan View Post
This topic is so hard to answer. But try to read my story:

A dog walks into my yard; it is obvious he is left on the street because he was wandering my village for a month. But when he comes to my place I feed her. She didn't like me much, and she went on the road again, and I knew they would take her and probably kill her.

So I took her, and several months later here she is laying beside me when I type this post. And no, I don't train her, I don't do anything with her, we are bonded telepathically, I just say words, and she does the things, not always, but her loyalty to me has no boundaries and no, she is not the pet, she is a member of my family. She sleeps in same room with me; she goes everywhere I go (unless I go out of the house or yard then she waits).

Now I ask you, what should I feed her?
I know the problem with the meat industry and dog food industry, but should I let her die without food? I am sorry, but in this case, i don't care about vegan laws, I care about my family and if I need to kill, i will kill to feed my family.

Let me ask you a question:
Would you eat raw meat if you are starving to death?
I think i don't need to ask this question because we all know the answer.
I'm not sure of your question, but my dogs actually thrive on a vegan diet. They have been eating Natural Balance vegan formula for many years. They are 12, 11 and 9 and have no health problems. My vegan vet approves. Cats, unfortunately, need animal products to thrive.

I, personally, am enormously grateful for the choices I have in my diet. Thankfully I have never had to choose between eating something I don't eat now and starvation.
04-06-2017 04:09 AM
beegan This topic is so hard to answer. But try to read my story:

A dog walks into my yard; it is obvious he is left on the street because he was wandering my village for a month. But when he comes to my place I feed her. She didn't like me much, and she went on the road again, and I knew they would take her and probably kill her.

So I took her, and several months later here she is laying beside me when I type this post. And no, I don't train her, I don't do anything with her, we are bonded telepathically, I just say words, and she does the things, not always, but her loyalty to me has no boundaries and no, she is not the pet, she is a member of my family. She sleeps in same room with me; she goes everywhere I go (unless I go out of the house or yard then she waits).

Now I ask you, what should I feed her?
I know the problem with the meat industry and dog food industry, but should I let her die without food? I am sorry, but in this case, i don't care about vegan laws, I care about my family and if I need to kill, i will kill to feed my family.

Let me ask you a question:
Would you eat raw meat if you are starving to death?
I think i don't need to ask this question because we all know the answer.
04-05-2017 10:30 AM
Poppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by silva View Post
@Poppy - It seems to me that your post portrays a different view than what I'm used to feeling from you. I'm certainly against profiting from animals, and really hate the the term "pets", but I don't view the decision to live with other animals much differently than the choice of other companions, or children
Why mix this up with up neglect? You can use the same arguments about neglected, and abused children. I do believe in mandatory spay/neuter requirements for most. I honestly relish the day when people get birth control at puberty until they're ready to reproduce.

Are you actually against living with domestic animals? What message that would bring scares me as much as illusion of happy farms. Instead of cognitive dissonance I'd think we have utter disregard for animals other than ourselves. People care deeply about animals, including the ones that we do use for work. It was a murdered police dog that really escalated the fight in my area to bring felony charges to all abusers. The police dog was very close to getting the same justice as any officer
No I'm not opposed living with companion animals - provided the human does it solely for the benefit of the animal and not for the benefit of himself. And doing it for the benefit of the animal means, in my mind, taking in the sick, the elderly, the poorly trained and the neglected. It means taking in animals who cannot give back emotionally, but just need a place to live. It means keeping the animal through all of life's changes - relocating, having children, the animal having medical problems, getting old - and not dumping it at the pound because it's no longer a "perfect" fit. It means sacrificing for the good of the animal - to forego certain things because you have to purchase prescription food, flea and tick prevention, heart worm prevention, dental care; to invest time in training so your animal is a good citizen; to find quality care and activities for your pet when you travel or work long hours.

I'm not saying that humans should never receive benefits from animals - because who doesn't love kisses and snuggles? - I'm saying that the benefits should never be the reason we decide to take in an animal, because there's no guarantee that animal is going to meet all of an owner's needs. But that owner should do everything possible to make sure s/he can meet all of the needs of his pet.

Because I work in animal rescue, I see it all. I honestly think we have gone overboard and created a completely dysfunctional pet culture. Far too often, pets become commodified - they are the latest bling like new phones or shoes. I think we really need to reevaluate our relationship with all of the animal world, pets included. How can we be good stewards, eliminate suffering, and allow the animals we come in contact with to live lives free from expectations that they need to do something for us - whether it be to become our food, our clothing, our entertainment, or our purpose in life?

When I suggest sterilizing all companion animals and allow the practice of owning pets to die out within a generation, I realize that's never going to happen or make me any new friends! But I say it from time to time to shock people and, hopefully, have them reconsider what being a pet means for far too many animals. Sure, we here are likely the best pet owners on the planet, but we all know people who don't treat their animals the way they should. It's not at all uncommon for animals to live very difficult lives as pets. How do we stop those situations unless we begin to discourage the crazy "oh you've got to get a cat/dog" mentality this culture seems to have?
04-03-2017 11:48 PM
BlueMts From beasts we scorn as soulless,
In forest, field and den,
The cry goes up to witness
The soullessness of men.
~M. Frida Hartley

I am not having a good day today can't get my thoughts in order. so this will be a bit simplistic.

I don't have the answers but I do have some thoughts.

Most dogs like to work.There are many dogs bred by certified breeders to work. I don't think having a guide dog or an assistant dog or a tracking dog is "using" the dog in a negative sense. My GSD loved his tracking training and always got really excited about it (just one example).

Puppy mills should be illegal. They are here.They are closed down buy the RSPCA when they are found (often because people have reported them) and the people running them are prosecuted. Unfortunately the penalties are often too lenient but the courts are getting harder on them.

All companion animals except those owned by certified breeders should be neutered. More people should adopt from shelters so there will be fewer certified breeders because the market will shrink. My GSD was brought from a certified GSD breeder. She interviewed all prospective owners twice face to face before she would sell and she donated dogs to the police force.


Around the time we got our GSD we also adopted 3 GSP/mastiffs from a RSPCA shelter.

People should never buy from a puppy mill or from a pet shop because it is the same thing. Pet shop puppies are from puppy mills or back yard breeders. But then again I can't help but wonder what will happen to those puppies if no-one buys them. (Is there an answer or does human greed just win?)

All domestic cats should be indoor animals and if they are to be allowed outside it should be in cat runs.

Did you know that in Switzerland it is illegal to flush a living goldfish and if you are found to have done so you will be prosecuted. Even goldfish have rights.

Then of course there are rabbits, Guinea pigs, etc etc etc.

Farm animals are a whole different problem. It is something that will take many years to fix. First no more using animal products. Then contraception until the numbers are lowered by time - but lowered not made extinct. I saw an English tv show the other day which had on it a rare cow breed. They weren't used for milking or eating - just looked after as a heritage cow.

We are supposed to be about animal rights not about wiping them out. Both our governments are going backwards on this. Maybe it's time we made a bit more noise about animal rights. I had an idea about this because the Sydney agricultural show is on soon but I decided it would emotionally traumatised too many small children and I would hate to traumatise children.

This took well over an hour for me to type. It's mostly about companion animal but that is what the thread is about. If anyone wants to comment - agree or disagree - I will not be around until tonight (4;00PM here). Hands shaking so can't type any more.

I think when I feel better I will start a thread about endangered species breeding programs (what is the official vegan attitude to this ?)

04-03-2017 04:06 PM
silva @Poppy - It seems to me that your post portrays a different view than what I'm used to feeling from you. I'm certainly against profiting from animals, and really hate the the term "pets", but I don't view the decision to live with other animals much differently than the choice of other companions, or children
Why mix this up with up neglect? You can use the same arguments about neglected, and abused children. I do believe in mandatory spay/neuter requirements for most. I honestly relish the day when people get birth control at puberty until they're ready to reproduce.

Are you actually against living with domestic animals? What message that would bring scares me as much as illusion of happy farms. Instead of cognitive dissonance I'd think we have utter disregard for animals other than ourselves. People care deeply about animals, including the ones that we do use for work. It was a murdered police dog that really escalated the fight in my area to bring felony charges to all abusers. The police dog was very close to getting the same justice as any officer
04-03-2017 02:06 PM
Capstan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poppy View Post
Diabolic and cruel? Oh for crying' out loud. It's a shame we cannot have a discussion about differing views without condescending conclusions and exaggerations. You must not be aware that approximately 1.5 million homeless animals are euthanized annually in the US alone, and that's actually been a significant improvement over the past decade. Is it better for 12 week old kittens to have never been born than to be gassed to death because there are no homes for them? And that number does not include the number of animals who live their full lives in appalling conditions. Humans treat all animals as disposable commodities, even domesticated ones, and I would love to know how you would suggest we "address and fix" this massive problem short of drastically rethinking the whole idea of humans owning pets.

As for isolating ourselves as a species, that's not what I suggested. What a horrible place this would be without birds and squirrels, without fish and bugs. We are privileged to share the world with Mother Nature, but we don't have to dominate it to such an extent that we create more problems than we fix. We don't have to own animals to enjoy them.

I find it curious (but not unusual as apparently my opinions on this subject are considered drastic) that veg*ns think of pets very differently from animals in the food supply. We try to reduce the number of farmed animals abused by not eating them or their by-products, but don't see that we are part of the same problem with domesticated animals. Demand for something always creates supply - until there is too much, and then it goes to waste. We (as a species) waste so many lives, simply because we think we need a furry friend.
As a vegan, I can envision a world that doesn't farm animals for commercial use nor use them for so-called "scientific" experimentation, by-products, etc. I can also see a world, where domestic pets are not bred for profit, especially to the point of overpopulation. Breeding pets for sale is unnatural and not part of the pet tradition. Fix this, and you've solved half the problem. It's only been in the last 100-years or so it's become an issue, and I would not undo thousands of years- perhaps tens of thousands of years- of evolution and tradition for the sake of a fast, easy, "magic bullet," one-shot-covers-all sort of solution to problems that have only recently arisen. I cannot envision a world, where we may be privileged to be aware of Mother Nature, but are forbidden to be intimate with her. It's not natural.

The history of killing animals for food is long, and so is the history of having pets. But they are not the same thing, as you suggest. I think you're too quick to characterize the relationship of human to pet as simple "ownership." It goes much deeper than that. There is much bad in the world, but there is good too, and, as a vegan, I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Peace, Sister.
04-03-2017 10:16 AM
Poppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capstan View Post
In my opinion, what you're suggesting is more diabolic and cruel than what is currently going on. Yes, there are problems with the behavior of some humans regarding the treatment of domestic animals, but these problems can be addressed and fixed, short of engineering the extinction of whole species and denying the future lives of millions of wonderful animals. You said earlier:

"....We always, in the long run, treat every being badly - even other humans - so we should be curtailed from continued harm."

Shall we also eliminate those 'other humans' who are the victims of maltreatment? I don't think so. We don't solve the problem of animal abuse by eliminating the animals. It is natural for people and animals to live together as friends. It is unnatural for people to try to isolate themselves as a species, exclusive unto itself.
Diabolic and cruel? Oh for crying' out loud. It's a shame we cannot have a discussion about differing views without condescending conclusions and exaggerations. You must not be aware that approximately 1.5 million homeless animals are euthanized annually in the US alone, and that's actually been a significant improvement over the past decade. Is it better for 12 week old kittens to have never been born than to be gassed to death because there are no homes for them? And that number does not include the number of animals who live their full lives in appalling conditions. Humans treat all animals as disposable commodities, even domesticated ones, and I would love to know how you would suggest we "address and fix" this massive problem short of drastically rethinking the whole idea of humans owning pets.

As for isolating ourselves as a species, that's not what I suggested. What a horrible place this would be without birds and squirrels, without fish and bugs. We are privileged to share the world with Mother Nature, but we don't have to dominate it to such an extent that we create more problems than we fix. We don't have to own animals to enjoy them.

I find it curious (but not unusual as apparently my opinions on this subject are considered drastic) that veg*ns think of pets very differently from animals in the food supply. We try to reduce the number of farmed animals abused by not eating them or their by-products, but don't see that we are part of the same problem with domesticated animals. Demand for something always creates supply - until there is too much, and then it goes to waste. We (as a species) waste so many lives, simply because we think we need a furry friend.
04-03-2017 08:23 AM
Capstan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poppy View Post
I would never suggest (and didn't suggest) we release domesticated animals to fend for themselves in nature and become vermin. That would indeed be cruel. My opinion, as I very clearly stated, is to spay and neuter all of them and let the practice of keeping pets die out - which is what would happen if they could;t reproduce. Is it possible to completely spay an neuter all pets in the near future? Probably not, but it's what I think should be worked toward to insure the issues of homelessness, animal cruelty, overcrowded pounds, high euthanasia rates, puppy and kitten mills, diseases, and breeding gone wild come to an eventual end and we humans leave animals alone. Your "Natural Order" sounds more like Jim Crow laws that anything I have suggested.
In my opinion, what you're suggesting is more diabolic and cruel than what is currently going on. Yes, there are problems with the behavior of some humans regarding the treatment of domestic animals, but these problems can be addressed and fixed, short of engineering the extinction of whole species and denying the future lives of millions of wonderful animals. You said earlier:

"....We always, in the long run, treat every being badly - even other humans - so we should be curtailed from continued harm."

Shall we also eliminate those 'other humans' who are the victims of maltreatment? I don't think so. We don't solve the problem of animal abuse by eliminating the animals. It is natural for people and animals to live together as friends. It is unnatural for people to try to isolate themselves as a species, exclusive unto itself.
04-03-2017 08:10 AM
Poppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueMts View Post
I agree with a lot of what you have said but all the bad things are you mention are the fault of the humans not the dogs and cats.

Lots of dogs and cats have much better lives than the ones you describe. My life for example basically revolves around my old dogs and my cats.We hardly ever go anywhere if the dogs can't come. I we have to go out for a while like to hospital where they can't come then our neighboughs mind them. MY day revolves around their feed times, brushing and coming times etc etc. Most people I know who share their homes with cats and dogs love them and receive love back.

Most civilised countries have laws against cruelty to animals but not enough people report cases when the see them.

Anyone who has ever had a dog for a friend knows that it doesn't care what it is doing as long as it is doing it with its person.

I think one of the main problems veganism faces as it grows in society is the problem of what happens to all the different types of creature we have created ie farm animals.
Farm animals are bred to be turned into food and byproducts - there is nothing humane or natural about their lives when they are in the food chain. If we didn't eat them/wear them/consume their milk, they would no longer be bred for our consumption. It's not very likely everyone will turn vegan at once and all the farm animals be let loose to fend for themselves.

As for living with and loving pets, most of us have been lucky enough to have wonderful relationships with the animals we keep. But does that fact that you and I are responsible pet owners make up for the fact that there are far too many homeless animals because so many people think they want pets but find out they really don't/can't afford/don't have time? That breeders are allowed to breed irresponsibly and with virtually no regulation? That pharmaceutical companies are allowed to charge exorbitant amounts for basic medications to control parasites and diseases? That pet food companies put poor quality/dangerous low cost ingredients and fillers in their products? As individuals, we might take excellent care of the few animals under our control, but as a species we always, always always put ourselves/our profit margins/our emotional needs first. Which is why I think the pet culture that we have today should drastically change.
04-03-2017 07:55 AM
leedsveg Speaking as an animal (and of course homo sapiens is just a species of animal) I've never wanted/felt the need, at least since becoming an adult, to have another animal as a pet. I'm not sure that any other species feels such a need, so sorry, but I don't really know how, with the best will in the world, that "need" can be considered at all "natural".*

Lv


(*I do of course acknowledge that there will be special circumstances where animals in rescue shelters could be at risk of death if they were not successfully rehoused.)
04-03-2017 07:23 AM
BlueMts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naturebound View Post
It isn't natural however, to keep pets in cages, or lock them in the house or in a yard while gone all day at work. There is very little mutual give and take in the relationship between humans and pets when pets are 100% dependent on us for everything...shelter, food, care, space. They have little if any control over their own destiny/fate, and life. If there is a fire in a house and no one is home, except that pet, they have no way out (unless the human provides an escape). If the human gets sick or struggles financially and can no longer care for their pet, that pet is going to suffer because they can not care for themselves, and finding another home for them may be hit or miss. There are not the safeguards in place for pets that there are for most children and humans. Our neighborhoods and communities are often not safe for domesticated animals (or wild animals for that matter) either. Heck, even as a cyclist and pedestrian I can attest to how dangerous our car culture can be. Domesticated animals do not have the skills and instincts that wild animals have to survive outside. And not spaying/neutering brings more hardship as there are so many unwanted pets starving, living in shelters, being put to sleep, being profited off of. There are laws as it is in many communities about allowing pets to roam outside, and when they are broken, the pet will be the one to pay the price ultimately.

It would be nice if humans and domesticated animals could coexist in a mutual way, but I just don't see this being possible due to human nature and our need to dominate, and the way we live right now. There are cities and places in the world where dogs and cats roam more freely and are more accepted by humans, but they are far and few. As it is some of us are fighting just for the rights of wild animals such as the wolf to coexist with humans, as hunting of these animals has again become the norm.

I'd say at the very least at least acquire a pet from a shelter or in a rescue situation, and not from a breeder, when there are so so many pets in need of homes as it is. And please spay/neuter to decrease the number of unwanted pets who are suffering due to lack of care.
I agree with a lot of what you have said but all the bad things are you mention are the fault of the humans not the dogs and cats.

Lots of dogs and cats have much better lives than the ones you describe. My life for example basically revolves around my old dogs and my cats.We hardly ever go anywhere if the dogs can't come. I we have to go out for a while like to hospital where they can't come then our neighboughs mind them. MY day revolves around their feed times, brushing and coming times etc etc. Most people I know who share their homes with cats and dogs love them and receive love back.

Most civilised countries have laws against cruelty to animals but not enough people report cases when the see them.

Anyone who has ever had a dog for a friend knows that it doesn't care what it is doing as long as it is doing it with its person.

I think one of the main problems veganism faces as it grows in society is the problem of what happens to all the different types of creature we have created ie farm animals.
04-03-2017 07:04 AM
Poppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capstan View Post
This sounds rather like the Jim Crowe laws that were used to enforce segregation of the races, with "white only" supremacists in control. If we force pets to live wild, they will just return, begging to be let in. If we force a separation between the species, cats and dogs will not leave the cities, but will come to live underfoot, regarded as mere vermin, with species-supremacists setting out cruel traps and poisons, in an attempt to exterminate them. Dogs and cats weren't forced into domestication. They came to us voluntarily, and proved they wanted to be a part of our lives. Forcing a wedge between animals and humans would be as cold, wrong and unnatural as forcing segregation between the races. We all of us do better, when we work together.

Yes, keeping pets is not only ethical, it is the natural order.
I would never suggest (and didn't suggest) we release domesticated animals to fend for themselves in nature and become vermin. That would indeed be cruel. My opinion, as I very clearly stated, is to spay and neuter all of them and let the practice of keeping pets die out - which is what would happen if they could;t reproduce. Is it possible to completely spay an neuter all pets in the near future? Probably not, but it's what I think should be worked toward to insure the issues of homelessness, animal cruelty, overcrowded pounds, high euthanasia rates, puppy and kitten mills, diseases, and breeding gone wild come to an eventual end and we humans leave animals alone. Your "Natural Order" sounds more like Jim Crow laws that anything I have suggested.
04-03-2017 04:10 AM
Naturebound It isn't natural however, to keep pets in cages, or lock them in the house or in a yard while gone all day at work. There is very little mutual give and take in the relationship between humans and pets when pets are 100% dependent on us for everything...shelter, food, care, space. They have little if any control over their own destiny/fate, and life. If there is a fire in a house and no one is home, except that pet, they have no way out (unless the human provides an escape). If the human gets sick or struggles financially and can no longer care for their pet, that pet is going to suffer because they can not care for themselves, and finding another home for them may be hit or miss. There are not the safeguards in place for pets that there are for most children and humans. Our neighborhoods and communities are often not safe for domesticated animals (or wild animals for that matter) either. Heck, even as a cyclist and pedestrian I can attest to how dangerous our car culture can be. Domesticated animals do not have the skills and instincts that wild animals have to survive outside. And not spaying/neutering brings more hardship as there are so many unwanted pets starving, living in shelters, being put to sleep, being profited off of. There are laws as it is in many communities about allowing pets to roam outside, and when they are broken, the pet will be the one to pay the price ultimately.

It would be nice if humans and domesticated animals could coexist in a mutual way, but I just don't see this being possible due to human nature and our need to dominate, and the way we live right now. There are cities and places in the world where dogs and cats roam more freely and are more accepted by humans, but they are far and few. As it is some of us are fighting just for the rights of wild animals such as the wolf to coexist with humans, as hunting of these animals has again become the norm.

I'd say at the very least at least acquire a pet from a shelter or in a rescue situation, and not from a breeder, when there are so so many pets in need of homes as it is. And please spay/neuter to decrease the number of unwanted pets who are suffering due to lack of care.
04-03-2017 01:35 AM
Spudulika
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capstan View Post
This sounds rather like the Jim Crowe laws that were used to enforce segregation of the races, with "white only" supremacists in control. If we force pets to live wild, they will just return, begging to be let in. If we force a separation between the species, cats and dogs will not leave the cities, but will come to live underfoot, regarded as mere vermin, with species-supremacists setting out cruel traps and poisons, in an attempt to exterminate them. Dogs and cats weren't forced into domestication. They came to us voluntarily, and proved they wanted to be a part of our lives. Forcing a wedge between animals and humans would be as cold, wrong and unnatural as forcing segregation between the races. We all of us do better, when we work together.

Yes, keeping pets is not only ethical, it is the natural order.
I must say I've never thought about pets in this way before. But yes, perhaps we forget that other creatures have their own volition and they choose to be kept, fed and comforted by humans rather than run wild. My cats do anyway - they go outside (this is what they're accustomed to and they get very agitated if locked in) and come back when they want to; they would certainly leave if they were not happy here (we have been adopted in the past). Like many systems in nature, arguably we have mutually evolved a symbiotic relationship with cats and dogs. This isn't the case with creatures that are trapped of course.
04-02-2017 11:50 PM
BlueMts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capstan View Post
This sounds rather like the Jim Crowe laws that were used to enforce segregation of the races, with "white only" supremacists in control. If we force pets to live wild, they will just return, begging to be let in. If we force a separation between the species, cats and dogs will not leave the cities, but will come to live underfoot, regarded as mere vermin, with species-supremacists setting out cruel traps and poisons, in an attempt to exterminate them. Dogs and cats weren't forced into domestication. They came to us voluntarily, and proved they wanted to be a part of our lives. Forcing a wedge between animals and humans would be as cold, wrong and unnatural as forcing segregation between the races. We all of us do better, when we work together.

Yes, keeping pets is not only ethical, it is the natural order.
Just what I was going to say.

Wolves and humans together created "domesticated" dogs for both our survival when humans were hunter gatherers. Cats joined us when we settled down and started farming.

Neither dogs or cats are something we created as a substitute for something missing in our lives. We have been partners for thousands of years.

There is nothing so sad as a dog without its human.
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