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  Topic Review (Newest First)
11-04-2018 04:49 PM
David3 The statement that "neo-liberals have hijacked veganism into a popular environmental cause but it never was" isn't accurate, either. Below is a 1976 video from the Vegan Society - the first society to use the word "vegan". If you look at minute 18:47 of the video, there's a whole talk about cattle grazing and desertification:




.


I'm not taking sides here. Just check your facts, and back up your statements from citations from credible sources.
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11-04-2018 10:18 AM
David3 Howdy All,

The credibility of these conversations will be improved if you provide links to back up your claims. Otherwise, it becomes really hard to evaluate the truth of what's being said.

Example: Mystical Fog seems to be saying that vegans' vitamin B12 supplements aren't sustainable, because they require the mining of cobalt. Well, cobalt is certainly needed to make vitamin B12, but industrial B12 manufacturing uses only the tiniest percentage of mined cobalt:





Link: http://gilgameshafrica.com/Cobalt%20...lications.html


If you provide these kinds of citations and links, it becomes a lot easier to get to the objective truth. Cuts down on yelling, too.


.
11-04-2018 07:31 AM
SocialJusticeVegan Mystical Fog,
Your post is so full of falsehood, lies, and nonsense that I will not respond to all of your false statements. Suffice it to say this:

1. Vegetarianism is a joke. Eggs and dairy are just as cruel, evil, and unethical as meat. You are doing NOTHING for the animals by being "vegetarian". There is no such thing as an "ethical vegetarian".

2. The problem is not just factory farming, it’s ALL ANIMAL FARMING.

3. Veganism has NOTHING to do with environmental sustainability. Veganism is a JUSTICE MOVEMENT FOR ANIMAL LIBERATION! Hippy-dippy types have hijacked veganism into a popular environmental cause but it is not. Veganism is always about animal liberation.

4. If you feed your companion animal meat, and call yourself a vegan or even vegetarian, you are a straight joke.

5. By the way, if you eat honey, you are NO friend of bees and certainly not a vegan. Honey is food and shelter for bees, and if you buy honey, you are stealing from these little creatures. You are literally taking their food and shelter. That is evil, and so are honey-eaters.

6. Veganism is a moral imperative and ethical baseline. If you aren't vegan, you aren't on the right side of justice.
11-03-2018 05:06 PM
Mystical Fog All this is to me is further proof that veganism is a reaction to industrialism. While I'll allow that perhaps veganism was possible in the ancient Mediterranean or a similar climate, on a global scale nothing more removed from animals was possible until the Industrial Revolution.

The Industrial Revolution is what ultimately gave us excess fossil fuels and man-made climate change, it's what gave us factory farming, and veganism is generally a response to one of the above or both things: either people are vegan for environmental reasons, or because they are so horrified by factory farming that the thought of eating an animal product again becomes unthinkable. Or both.

However, the irony is that veganism really can't exist in most parts of the world without industrialism. Shipping or carrying crops to different parts of the world or at least different parts of the country becomes a necessity. Cobalt mining is necessary for B12. Unless you live in the fertile crescents of Northern Africa or something similar, veganism becomes very, very difficult to impossible without industrial capitalism.

NOW - I know many of you will argue, but since we can't crush industrial capitalism and the state of the world, then being vegan is the only rational response to the world as it currently is. I agreed with this argument myself in the past.

BUT the reality is that some aspects of veganism actually aren't sustainable and are even exploitative to other humans. Of course we all know the "perfect vegan" who only shops local, organic, fair-trade and eschews palm oil, but to do that is difficult, time consuming, takes a ton of self-discipline, a certain level of intelligence or education, not to mention the income and/or free time to make these choices.

"We're all doing the best that we can" ...true as that may be, there are cases where it's actually less damaging to the environment to drink a glass bottle of locally farmed milk than a Tetrapak of almond milk. Many areas outside of major cities can't even recycle Tetrapaks, and getting pasture eggs from two streets over is far more sustainable than getting a vegan egg substitute from the other side of the country, maybe even from the other side of the world. Let's not go into the fossil fuels that are required to produce a packaged vegan product versus a local container of goat cheese or a dozen eggs.

"I'm doing it for the animals not for the environment." That's great, but just know we've reached a critical point that without humane, sustainable bee keeping we'd actually be seriously endangering the survival of our pollinating friends. So if you say you don't eat honey because of the bees, you're either grossly misinformed, or you must not have access to anything but cruel commercial honey.

"Vegans can't have cats" - okay this is when veganism actually becomes toxic and not just idealistic. Why? Because when you say vegans can't have cats or a relationship with any particular domesticated animal, you've actually become so far removed from the natural world in a post-industrial society that there's no way in hell you're doing anything "for animals." The further you remove yourself from non-human animals, put a wall between you and they, you become an enabler to the destruction of the earth and all of the animals in it. Prior to industrialism in agricultural societies - vegetarian societies let's argue - cats were a critical partner in hanging about the farm, chasing the mice away from the grain and the corn. The farmers didn't "work" the cats, they volunteered their "services" in a symbiotic relationship with agricultural humans. We never domesticated cats, they domesticated themselves.

How will you continue to live in this delusion if some breakdown of society comes due to war or climate change? Are you pro-industrialism? Do you want the industrialism that created factory farming and climate change to continue? And if so, why? What's the point of being vegan at all unless you're attempting to radically change the current structure?

I'm starting to think someone should start an organization called Sane Ethical Vegetarians Unite or something like that, to get rid of all of this superfluous garbage about pets, cats, service animals and honey, so we can focus on real important issues, like saving our planet and saving the animals.
09-24-2018 05:02 AM
APhilosophicalGent Yep, this one just goes on and on and on. Cats are cute as hell! Not too many vegans worried they if cant keep spiders or snakes tho lol.
08-28-2018 07:28 PM
David3 In fact, if you look up the meeting minutes from the 19th century vegetarian society meetings, you will see that their discussions are very similar to ours now.


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08-28-2018 07:20 PM
David3 Of course! I’ve been vegan for 27 years, and the topics now are the same as the topics back in 1991.


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08-28-2018 05:52 PM
Rebel Labels Sometimes I wonder if I would travel in time to the far future, would this kind of battle be still ongoing? :P
08-26-2018 04:53 PM
David3 Yep. A gorilla’s diet is 97% vegan, along with some insects and grubs. “Canine” teeth are also useful for males who want to threaten each other and thereby get sex from females. Ah, things are slow to change.



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08-26-2018 04:57 AM
Spudulika
08-24-2018 03:57 PM
Capstan Our so-called "canines" are nothing like a canine's fangs. A wolf's fangs are shaped for piercing and holding prey. Our so-called "canines" are short and flat- shaped like little knives- ideal for slicing- just right for eating, say, a raw carrot. Whoever named them "canines" got it wrong.
08-24-2018 02:24 PM
TomH My understanding is that cats, felines broadly speaking, are genetically designed for the consumption of meat - their digestive systems are small so that the meat passes through the body quicker. It's in their DNA. SO from this, it would actually be ethically questionable to force a feline to eat something they're not suited to consume and digest properly.

HUMANS on the other hand... our digestive systems are naturally made for consumption of plant based foods. Our long digestive system is designed for slow digestion to get the most out of our plant based diet (as it should be). We only started growing canine teeth because of the millennia of people eating meat, so this was an evolutionary mutation.

So we're all good being vegan, but cats aren't.
08-13-2018 02:37 AM
Regie’93 As human beings, we're responsible for our pets. Yet still we can't change their nature (and we're not allowed to do so). Even if they're domesticated creatures, that's unnatural for cats to consume only grass food.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silva View Post
Considering that humans domesticated cats i find it self serving to ignore their needs in the guise of being 'vegan'. Ignoring the needs of other animals is unkind
So this ^
Ignoring the basic needs of a cat doesn't make you a better person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by APhilosophicalGent View Post
We have obligation to those in existence, but, short of lab grown meat becoming feasible, they cant be part of a distant vegan utopia.
Until then we should keep our pets healthy and happy
08-05-2018 12:40 AM
APhilosophicalGent someone has to SLAUGHTER those lambs, cows, chickens etc that go into cat food. It's not a nice thought. The bleating lamb does not feel better that it will become pet food, not human food.


Neuter your cats! We have obligation to those in existence, but, short of lab grown meat becoming feasible, they cant be part of a distant vegan utopia.
08-04-2018 07:48 PM
silva
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nms563 View Post
I haven't looked at any of the comments yet but I'm sure the replies are saturated with comments like this (or I'm at least hoping they are) but cats CANNOT be fed vegan diets. They literally cannot survive without meat. I've heard of a few off cases where cats have survived and lived long lives but you hear a lot of cases about them dying and veterinarians strongly advising against it. You are vegan if you do not consume animal products, but any non-militant vegan will tell you that you do what you can and sometimes you can't help having a cat and buying them products with meat. EXAMPLE... my cat (who passed away a year ago) came to me as a stray while at work of all places. No one could take care of him, he was declawed and had one tooth, and I absolutely do not like dumping animals at shelters. If I can't find a person for them, I hold onto them until I can. It's not as if I've encountered enough strays to do that very often but that's my philosophy. I also wasn't about to force my beliefs onto my cat as much as I wish I could. If a vegan goes out of their way to do anything that they believe may involve purchasing or consuming meat, then I would have to agree they're not 100% vegan or just not 100% committed to their cause yet. People like you set these harsh rules and scare people away from veganism. I'm a wavering vegetarian/vegan myself and comments like this make me lose motivation, as if I'm not doing enough. I've had one cat for 12 years (before becoming vegetarian) and had my other cat for 7 before I lost him and will continue to feed her meat products because she needs them to survive and live a healthy life. I'm not going to rob her of that because militant vegans like you try to shame me.
Considering that humans domesticated cats i find it self serving to ignore their needs in the guise of being 'vegan'. Ignoring the needs of other animals is unkind
08-04-2018 05:55 PM
Nms563 I haven't looked at any of the comments yet but I'm sure the replies are saturated with comments like this (or I'm at least hoping they are) but cats CANNOT be fed vegan diets. They literally cannot survive without meat. I've heard of a few off cases where cats have survived and lived long lives but you hear a lot of cases about them dying and veterinarians strongly advising against it. You are vegan if you do not consume animal products, but any non-militant vegan will tell you that you do what you can and sometimes you can't help having a cat and buying them products with meat. EXAMPLE... my cat (who passed away a year ago) came to me as a stray while at work of all places. No one could take care of him, he was declawed and had one tooth, and I absolutely do not like dumping animals at shelters. If I can't find a person for them, I hold onto them until I can. It's not as if I've encountered enough strays to do that very often but that's my philosophy. I also wasn't about to force my beliefs onto my cat as much as I wish I could. If a vegan goes out of their way to do anything that they believe may involve purchasing or consuming meat, then I would have to agree they're not 100% vegan or just not 100% committed to their cause yet. People like you set these harsh rules and scare people away from veganism. I'm a wavering vegetarian/vegan myself and comments like this make me lose motivation, as if I'm not doing enough. I've had one cat for 12 years (before becoming vegetarian) and had my other cat for 7 before I lost him and will continue to feed her meat products because she needs them to survive and live a healthy life. I'm not going to rob her of that because militant vegans like you try to shame me.
03-15-2018 04:08 PM
Tom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlady View Post
The problem with cat food is that it contains trash from slaughterhouses . Another problem is cat on a vegan diet which is not natural . Cat needs a fresh meat butprobably most vegans will not kill an animal and serve it to a cat....
I dunno about that. Don't people often argue that predators tend to kill prey animals who are sick or injured, and that predators perform some sort of function that way? And it's not at all unusual for a predator to consume an already-dead animal who might have been dead for a bit of time (carrion)... Also, if by "trash", you mean parts of the animal considered unfit for human consumption anyway (bone marrow, guts, etc), wild predators often eat these parts from the animals they hunt anyhow (hope I didn't gross anybody out...)

That said... I want to see this problem solved by the invention of nutritious, satisfying vegan food for our carnivorous pets.
03-15-2018 12:41 AM
ruthwfortunato I like to eat like a vegan but I don't ask my cat to be like me.
Whatever it is, being called Vegan or not is not the matter.
03-11-2018 12:23 PM
leedsveg Just a reminder folks that if you think that someone's posts are rude and unacceptable, you can always block that member so that you don't have to see their posts. I'v occasionally done it before and I'm now doing it again. Life's too short etc.

leedsveg.
03-11-2018 03:50 AM
APhilosophicalGent Damn science! Make a properly satisfactory vegan cat food that all cats will eat and thrive on already! I'm sure it could be done if there was enough will. Short of that I'm kind of in Necter's camp insofar as I think choosing to get a pedigree kitten from a breeder would be a strange choice for a heartfelt vegan. I know it's a grey area when theyre rescue cats etc. Also some have cats from prior to their vegan days.
03-11-2018 01:50 AM
AspiringBuddha Necter,

you might be happier if you spent some quality time with a puppy. Maybe you could donate some time and vegan dog food to your local no-kill shelter.
03-10-2018 06:29 PM
Citrus333 Necter, you sound just like the rather demented bully on what used to be vegan-l. I forget what it's called now. You must be a very small person inside. Or maybe your shoes are too tight. Have at it, dude. You don't and won't bother me. You just make yourself look juvenile and in need of long-term professional mental health treatment.
03-10-2018 06:26 PM
Citrus333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlady View Post
The problem with cat food is that it contains trash from slaughterhouses
That's not exactly true. It's true of grocery store pet foods, but not true of human-grade pet foods. It takes very little effort to find and purchase human-grade foods. I remember when there were just two companies who made dog and cat food from human grade ingredients. Now there are many.

We created these cats and dogs and we are responsible for them.
03-09-2018 03:04 AM
Vlady Especially like they are presented in so- called ,, cat caf?s " .
03-09-2018 03:03 AM
Vlady The problem with cat food is that it contains trash from slaughterhouses . Another problem is cat on a vegan diet which is not natural . Cat needs a fresh meat butprobably most vegans will not kill an animal and serve it to a cat , people can not hunt without instruments therefore it is not natural as well . The only rational solution is to let cat hunt , but than it will be not a pet anymore , but cats obviously can hunt . So yes , cat should not be a pet
03-08-2018 08:31 PM
Citrus333 The idea that vegans must feed obligate carnivores a vegan diet is preposterous. Vegans don't have the right to inflict their values on others. Veganism is about creating the least harm, not about martyrdom. Cats are obligate carnivores. Can they survive on a vegan diet with sufficient nutrients?...of course they can. But the fundamental thing about caring for the beings we humans created (companion dogs and cats) is first, keeping them safe, and then helping them to live full and happy lives. Because they can survive doesn't mean they're happy or that their food is psychologically and emotionally fulfilling.

That said, I believe that some (few, but some) cats can and do thrive on a vegan diet. They are few and far between, but it does happen. We should be concerned with giving them food that they enjoy physically, emotionally and mentally. If your cat truly thrives and is happy with a vegan diet, go for it. But be sensible and sensitive enough to know if your cat is just eating because s/he is very hungry because her/his food never really satisfies, or if s/he is eating because the meal is enjoyable and s/he has a normal appetite.

These arguments are tiresome and do not reflect genuine respect for other beings. If we truly respect our cats, then we give them food their bodies were designed to eat. The best diet for companion cats and dogs is a BARF diet (Biologically Appropriate Raw Food). Second best is homemade food. Third best is human-grade pet food, which is superior in every way to grocery store pet food. Even a quick search online will turn up many brands of human-grade cat food.

I feed my companion animals a BARF diet and would no more consider forcing them away from their natural diets than I would have considered forcing my 88-year-old father-in-law to change his diet because his food choices didn't reflect my values. At some point we get mean, and that's never a good thing. At some point these arguments become exercises in mental masturbation. A little common sense goes a long way.
03-03-2018 06:39 AM
silva Anyone involved in dog or cat rescues could not have that opinion.
03-02-2018 07:31 PM
David3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlady View Post
Vegans should at first support animal liberation , not prisoning them even if they are lovely and may seem happy at the first sight . Vetter not to have cats or any pet and no dilemma about pet diet .

Hi Vlady,

Yes, it would be ideal if all animals lived in their natural habitat. However, dogs have been radically changed, biologically and behaviorally, by thousands of years of domestication. Many breeds of dogs are completely unable to live in a natural habitat. It's better that people adopt these dogs from shelters, and care for them. You wouldn't force this dog to live in a forest like a wolf, would you?


03-02-2018 01:26 PM
AspiringBuddha Discouraging people from letting animals into their lives gets rid of one of the primary sources of empathy toward animals, and will damage the cause of animal liberation.

Not to mention, what do you suggest we do with the millions of domesticated animals that are dependent upon humans? They've willingly decided to live with us and if we abandon them their lives will be short and miserable.
03-02-2018 12:14 PM
Vlady Vegans should at first support animal liberation , not prisoning them even if they are lovely and may seem happy at the first sight . Vetter not to have cats or any pet and no dilemma about pet diet .
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