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  Topic Review (Newest First)
12-20-2015 11:14 AM
leedsveg
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdorableMogwai View Post
I don't believe in religions like Mormonism but I do believe in good and evil. If you don't believe in evil watch the ISIS video where they burn the Jordanian pilot alive in a cage. I challenge anyone to watch that video and not believe in evil afterwards. I watched that after it came out, I originally didn't want to but I kept seeing news stories about it, about how Fox news showed it, and my curiosity got the better of me because I just wanted to see what happened. Big mistake, I wasn't able to sleep that night because of it and the images still haunt me to this day. That video and what happened was evil, when you watch it you can feel the evil as an objective force, just like with the factory farm footage.
Hi Adorable Mogwai.

I've been trying to come up with a response to your post since yesterday but I'm just not able to translate my thoughts into adequate words. This must be the most depressing thing I've read on VB in my 4 years of membership.

Leedsveg
12-19-2015 09:07 AM
no whey jose
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blobbenstein View Post
has that been done yet though? Transplanted male reproductive organs?
Not to my knowledge, no. I meant that their female reproductive organs, if operational, could still carry and birth a baby if they wanted to go that route. Wasn't there a famous case of a transgender man doing just that? He was billed as the world's first pregnant man on US talk shows, if I remember right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdorableMogwai View Post
Have you ever seen the South Park episode about Mormonism? It's one of the better South Park episodes I've seen, and tells the actual story of what they believe.
"Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb!" 😂 I love that episode, and I also have a strange affinity for Mormons for the reasons highlighted in that episode: they're so polite, clean cut, and pleasant. I appreciate their focus on family and healthy living, but yeah-- some of their doctrine is utterly insane (and racist and misogynistic.)

We disagree on the existence of good and evil outside of the human realm. I don't believe that the fact that humans can commit atrocities speaks to the existence of evil as a supernatural force, no matter how much we might "feel" that way. Our brains are awash with chemicals which make us feel all sorts of things, including overwhelmingly positive or negative sensations which can seem bigger than ourselves.
12-19-2015 08:42 AM
AdorableMogwai Have you ever seen the South Park episode about Mormonism? It's one of the better South Park episodes I've seen, and tells the actual story of what they believe. A man named Joseph Smith said that an angel named Moroni came down to show him where some ancient golden plates were buried of a lost American civilization, and they were written in a language only he could understand and translate. It's really ridiculous.

I don't believe in religions like Mormonism but I do believe in good and evil. If you don't believe in evil watch the ISIS video where they burn the Jordanian pilot alive in a cage. I challenge anyone to watch that video and not believe in evil afterwards. I watched that after it came out, I originally didn't want to but I kept seeing news stories about it, about how Fox news showed it, and my curiosity got the better of me because I just wanted to see what happened. Big mistake, I wasn't able to sleep that night because of it and the images still haunt me to this day. That video and what happened was evil, when you watch it you can feel the evil as an objective force, just like with the factory farm footage.
12-19-2015 08:29 AM
Blobbenstein
Quote:
Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
Of course they can. Anyone with operational reproductive organs can reproduce.
has that been done yet though? Transplanted male reproductive organs?
12-19-2015 08:26 AM
no whey jose
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blobbenstein View Post
what about transgender men? Can they reproduce?
Of course they can. Anyone with operational reproductive organs can reproduce.
12-19-2015 07:02 AM
Blobbenstein
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdorableMogwai View Post
That's how the default pronoun was back in the days when women couldn't vote. Things have changed now.

Anyway the God entity's gender is not unknown, it has none. If God did have a gender, as you imply, that would mean God could have sex and reproduce. A ridiculous concept!

what about transgender men? Can they reproduce?

I think gender isn't just about the ability to reproduce...as I said, I think it might be a mysterious thing of which reproductive capability is only one thing.
12-19-2015 02:40 AM
no whey jose
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdorableMogwai View Post
If God did have a gender, as you imply, that would mean God could have sex and reproduce. A ridiculous concept!
I take similar issue with the idea that God has a physical body, particularly a human-like physical body. I was talking to some (very nice, charming) Mormon missionaries who came to my door about how they believe that God has a complete human body, just "perfect." This is problematic on so many levels: what's a "perfect" body, for one? What colour hair does a perfect body have? Does it have a spleen, a liver, an appendix, a colon, an anus? Why would God need any of these things which are clearly adaptations for life on this particular planet? It's obvious why humans would want to describe God (or Gods) as humanlike or at least animalistic-- it's what we know, it's familiar to us-- but the characteristics we notice in ourselves and in the other species on this planet exist BECAUSE we're on this planet. We evolved to better survive in the specific environment of Earth, so attributing these characteristics-- even social characteristics like empathy and playfulness-- to a supernatural entity who exists independently of Earth and who doesn't subscribe to the laws of physics is nonsensical.

This is what I mean when I say that faith is irrational. The only way that a belief in God makes sense to me is to say something similar to what @AdorableMogwai said (leaving out the bits about "good" and "evil," which only make sense in the context of human society): God is the name we give to the forces which govern the universe. When we worship God, we express the awe, gratitude, wonder, and terror that we feel as sentient creatures living in this spectacular universe. I can get behind that 100%. What I CAN'T accept is that anyone could really, truly believe that God is a perfect man who created us in his image, who feels jealousy and anger, who demands from us bizarre rituals which vary with time (blood sacrifices, massacres, cutting or not cutting our hair, the utterance of certain words, the wearing of certain fabrics), who sees us and judges us and who can grant us an eternal afterlife in heaven or doom us to burn in the literal fires of hell with actual demons. I'm sorry, but that's clearly a fairy tale, a story invented by humans. It has all the hallmarks of human stories and it describes things which are impossible and unlikely. I don't understand how a rational person with an interest in truth could have faith that those stories are real in any sense other than the symbolic.
12-19-2015 12:31 AM
leedsveg
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdorableMogwai View Post
Good wishes back to you Leedsveg and everyone else.
Many thanks AM.
12-18-2015 06:10 PM
AdorableMogwai That's how the default pronoun was back in the days when women couldn't vote. Things have changed now.

Anyway the God entity's gender is not unknown, it has none. If God did have a gender, as you imply, that would mean God could have sex and reproduce. A ridiculous concept!

Good wishes back to you Leedsveg and everyone else.
12-18-2015 03:55 PM
LedBoots In the English language, "he" is the default pronoun used when the gender is unknown.
12-18-2015 03:14 PM
leedsveg
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdorableMogwai View Post
Oh no, she used the adjective "adolescent" to describe an assumption, how insulting.

Leedsveg, allow me to quote the Compost Heap sticky for you. "When posting in The Compost Heap please be aware that discussions may become heated. If you are overly sensitive you may want to avoid this area." Certainly someone that feels Thalassa's comments are insulting fits that description.
Hi AdorableMogwai

Perhaps you can clarify things for me? If it wasn't intended as some kind of insult, why do you think that Thalassa4 said that Ukvege had made an "adolescent assumption"? (For the sake of accuracy, you will note that I only directly referred to that one comment, so I'm not really sure why you refer to Thalassa4's "comments"?)

Also by using the term "adolescent assumption" do you think that in an exchange between a Christian and an atheist, this progresses discussion in a positive way?

Good wishes

Leedsveg
12-18-2015 02:58 PM
Blobbenstein
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdorableMogwai View Post
Blobbenstein, do you really think God has a gender and should be called a him?
I think there is something mysterious about maleness and femaleness...and the spectrum of that for some people...I am happy to think of God as a male of some sort, but that could be just my projection onto him. I sometimes wonder what God is, and I realise he is beyond my comprehension in a lot of ways..I don't want to call God 'she', or 'it' anyway.
12-18-2015 02:25 PM
AdorableMogwai Blobbenstein, do you really think God has a gender and should be called a him?

I believe God is a powerful yet genderless entity which permeates the Universe as a force of good.

By being vegetarian I feel the goodness of what I'm doing, not just the subjective goodness, but the overall God force goodness. Conversely when I've seen footage of factory farms I felt the evil, and I know that everyone else here felt that same presence of evil when they saw it too. There's no way that such a perverse, sadistic system could exist on a huge, global scale unless evil is a reality. Whole species of benevolent beings are being systematically tortured, there is no faith needed here to see that evil exists. If you doubt it, then watch some of that footage again. All of us here are vessels of goodness in the struggle against this evil, and I love you all.
12-18-2015 12:47 PM
Blobbenstein or maybe I have met him in a way.


I am just like an amoeba to the guy....so it wouldn't be like meeting a person, if I did meet him.
12-18-2015 12:39 PM
Blobbenstein I think a belief in God is rational........but I haven't met the dude, as far as I'm aware, so it remains on the level of faith I suppose.
12-18-2015 12:21 PM
no whey jose
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blobbenstein View Post
Faith would be more implying the belief in something with little or no evidence, rather than something irrational.....or maybe something which has little or no evidence accepted by mainstream culture, or science.
I want to understand the distinction, but I'm having trouble coming up with an example of something which is rational but which requires faith. It seems to me that it's irrational to believe that something is true when you have no evidence. You could theorize that something is true without being completely sure, you could make an educated guess-- but faith is KNOWING for certain something that you don't and can't know for certain, which doesn't make sense.
12-18-2015 12:11 PM
Blobbenstein Faith would be more implying the belief in something with little or no evidence, rather than something irrational.....or maybe something which has little or no evidence accepted by mainstream culture, or science.
12-18-2015 11:20 AM
LedBoots
Quote:
Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
Veganism is an ethical stance. Ethics, like all philosophy, is rational and logical. Faith implies a belief in something irrational, doesn't it?
No, it doesn't.
12-18-2015 06:37 AM
faded_amaranth
Quote:
Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
Someone's a grumpy bunny today.
Maybe s/he ate after midnight or got wet D:
12-18-2015 01:07 AM
no whey jose
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdorableMogwai View Post
Oh no, she used the adjective "adolescent" to describe an assumption, how insulting.

Leedsveg, allow me to quote the Compost Heap sticky for you. "When posting in The Compost Heap please be aware that discussions may become heated. If you are overly sensitive you may want to avoid this area." Certainly someone that feels Thalassa's comments are insulting fits that description.
Someone's a grumpy bunny today.
12-17-2015 06:34 PM
AdorableMogwai
Quote:
Originally Posted by leedsveg View Post
Well said danakscully64.

There was also no need for the previous poster to be so insulting with the "adolescent assumption" comment.


Lv
Oh no, she used the adjective "adolescent" to describe an assumption, how insulting.

Leedsveg, allow me to quote the Compost Heap sticky for you. "When posting in The Compost Heap please be aware that discussions may become heated. If you are overly sensitive you may want to avoid this area." Certainly someone that feels Thalassa's comments are insulting fits that description.
12-17-2015 03:08 PM
leedsveg Well said danakscully64.

There was also no need for the previous poster to be so insulting with the "adolescent assumption" comment.


Lv
12-17-2015 01:04 PM
danakscully64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thalassa4 View Post
Um, there have been several athiest genocidal dictators - Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot - so please drop this adolescent assumption that religion causes violence. Religion is just an excuse some people use for their own bloodlust.
Pol Pot was likely a Buddhist. Stalin and Mao didn't cause violence in the name of atheism. Many religious dictators did in the name of their faith. Do you really think religion doesn't ever push people to the point of committing crimes? You think suicide bombers would really take out that many people without the promise of virgins in heaven? In America, religion has this bubble around it where it's offensive to criticize aspects of it, but that's ridiculous. Bush himself said God told him the war was the right thing to do. A lot of wars are started in the name of religion. Religion teaches blind faith and obedience. Why is religion not considered a factor when people who are religious go on killing sprees? I mean, when you're white. When a white, Christian man shoots up a Planned Parenthood, Fox News says he's mentally ill or just "defending babies." Yet when a Muslim man shoots a place up, he's a terrorist and motivated by religion. Have you noticed that some religions (like Christianity) get a "free pass" in America?

I think many people do justify their own bigotry and hate with the bible (or other holy books). I see it all the time. Those who are uncomfortable with gay people will often interpret the book as "God said the gays are sinners." But if you're fine with gay people, they'll say "No, God loves everyone. He says not to judge." It goes both ways. Religion can turn people hateful.

And why is it when someone says "I killed these people in the name of God," people try to say that it wasn't a motivation? If someone kills in the name of racism, it isn't questioned.

In the name of religion: http://metro.co.uk/2015/12/15/spit-o...ishop-5566200/

Do you think people would have supported Bush if he had said "My dog told me to invade Iraq?"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...q-6262644.html



12-15-2015 11:18 PM
Thalassa4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ukvege View Post
I think because as a vegan, I learned the truth behind where meat came from. There are lies surrounding the treatment of animals.
When I learned about world religions, and the violence and wars surrounding them, and the corruption behind it all, it made me question organized religion.
Sometimes you wonder if any of it is real. You were only made aware of it because that's how you were raised, once you grow up and come to your own conclusions, you then decide whether or not you choose to believe something.
Um, there have been several athiest genocidal dictators - Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot - so please drop this adolescent assumption that religion causes violence. Religion is just an excuse some people use for their own bloodlust.
12-15-2015 10:58 PM
Thalassa4
Quote:
Originally Posted by unovegan2 View Post
I don't think that's why it's been labelled that. Most wouldn't put in on faith as they would staunch ethics. I would say many average folks would put veganism as a cult versus vegetarianism which is the hippy dippy version.
I don't know that veganism is always faith based, but in any event, some vegans strike me as religious not because of a god, but because their morality is so strict they believe they or other people should die before using even the minimal amount of animal products. That is a perfect mirror of some fundamentalist Christians who refuse blood transfusions or invasive surgical medical care.

Not bashing, just observing. It's their right to believe that way, I'm a vegetarian transitioning to vegan, and I think being vegetarian or cruelty free glorifies God because of all of ethical reasons for humanity and Creation. However, I'm not sure I'd ever become so extreme in my veganism that I thought myself or others should die.
12-15-2015 10:39 PM
Thalassa4 No. The Garden of Eden was originally vegan in Genesis, and the description of paradise in Isaiah is either vegetarian or vegan (the whole bit about the lion lying down with the lamb, children playing with vipers, no bloodshed in the peaceable Kingdom)...I think the problem is that in the United States mainstream "political" far right Christianity is composed mainly of people who are also American traditionalists, and their meat consumption has more to do with that than Christianity. 7th Day Adventists are largely vegetarian or vegan. My favorite musician, Lana del Rey, is both openly vegetarian and a believer in God, and she was raised Roman Catholic.

In Israel, veganism is being called "the new kosher" by some Jews. It's become so popular it's spread to the Israeli army.

I'm a Christian vegetarian.
10-25-2015 01:17 PM
GinaJuice
Quote:
Originally Posted by axlyz View Post
I can't speak for all religions, but I can give my thoughts about Hinduism since I currently practice it.

Hinduism and India are generally seen as vegan/vegetarian friendly, since many Indians/Hindus are vegetarianism. However, I really don't think this is the case.

Many Hindus are born to vegetarian families, but that's it. They weren't taught about animal rights or environmentalism; rather, they were simply born into it, thinking it was the norm. Now, when you aren't taught WHY you should be a vegan/vegetarian, chances are that you can easily become a meat-eater. Brahmins of India are supposed to be vegetarians (and they have been historically), but I have seen these "Brahmins" and priests eat beef!

Now, let me get to the atheism part. I've noticed that when vegetarian Hindus leave their religion, they leave vegetarianism as well. I don't know why, but that's just what I've noticed. It could be because they think the idea of a holy animal is ridiculous or that they think eating meat is cool. Many Hindus who live in the west eat beef (when that is not allowed), so it could be a cultural thing. This seems to be the opposite in the west, where an atheist is more likely to be a vegan than a Christian or Muslim. Of course, my particular branch of Hinduism (like many others) mandates at least vegetarianism.

So, vegetarianism is likely to decline in India, but gladly, it is increasing in the West.

Just a question to all the atheist vegans here: What do you think of the beef bans in India that were enacted recently?
Everything that I have read about this beef ban involves violence coming from people who want to enforce it. Exactly the sort of thing mentioned in my other post and why I think religion is not good for people. Humans are important, too. And if they are dying over this, nothing has been accomplished even from solely an animal rights perspective.

And, like you said, when people leave the religion, they'll abandon their appreciation for the life behind beef with it. Faith doesn't make good people. If it did, they'd be good after they stopped believing.
10-25-2015 11:31 AM
axlyz I can't speak for all religions, but I can give my thoughts about Hinduism since I currently practice it.

Hinduism and India are generally seen as vegan/vegetarian friendly, since many Indians/Hindus are vegetarianism. However, I really don't think this is the case.

Many Hindus are born to vegetarian families, but that's it. They weren't taught about animal rights or environmentalism; rather, they were simply born into it, thinking it was the norm. Now, when you aren't taught WHY you should be a vegan/vegetarian, chances are that you can easily become a meat-eater. Brahmins of India are supposed to be vegetarians (and they have been historically), but I have seen these "Brahmins" and priests eat beef!

Now, let me get to the atheism part. I've noticed that when vegetarian Hindus leave their religion, they leave vegetarianism as well. I don't know why, but that's just what I've noticed. It could be because they think the idea of a holy animal is ridiculous or that they think eating meat is cool. Many Hindus who live in the west eat beef (when that is not allowed), so it could be a cultural thing. This seems to be the opposite in the west, where an atheist is more likely to be a vegan than a Christian or Muslim. Of course, my particular branch of Hinduism (like many others) mandates at least vegetarianism.

So, vegetarianism is likely to decline in India, but gladly, it is increasing in the West.

Just a question to all the atheist vegans here: What do you think of the beef bans in India that were enacted recently?
10-25-2015 08:41 AM
danakscully64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capstan View Post
Many rail against religion, while knowing virtually nothing about it. They repeat what they've overheard, but have no experience of their own. Militarism and ignorance are married to each other. Attacking others is a sure sign of a mind full of holes.
I'm going to have to strongly disagree here. Almost every single Atheist I've ever met is very educated on religion. I've found that I know more about the Bible than most Christians I've met. What made me an atheist was reading the bible. I'm in an atheist group on campus and more than 90% of those in the group were once religious. Many were even raised in a strict household where they did read the book from their religion daily. The President is an ex-Mormon who went to a private Mormon college before applying for his PhD at my university (and did door knocking).

I'm also going to add that a lot of people who are "militant atheists" are angry that they're looked down on and told they're going to hell by others (many shunned by family). In my experience, religious people tend to be more militant towards other religions and non-believers than the other way around. Almost all of my friends (including my best friend and 2nd cousin, who was my MOH at my wedding) are religious. As long as you don't try to shove your beliefs down my throat, I won't criticize your belief.


My view on the topic: I think when you start to question norms of society (like eating meat), you tend to be more open minded in general. You question other aspects and don't blindly follow as frequently.



10-25-2015 06:48 AM
GinaJuice Atheist, here.

I would say no. Atheism is just a belief that there is no supernatural deity. It's not tied to any moral reasoning directly.

I see a lot of comments about the problems between atheists and religious people, particularly Christians. I'd like to add that there is a subset of Atheists who are actively against religion and theism in general, in part because they believe that belief in a deity is used too often as a tool of oppression. I agree with that view, but I would rather not get into the mud with individual, good believers who have managed to turn their personal faith into a reason to do good and reject the notion that doing harm is what a loving God or Goddess would want. I bring up Anti-Theism only because this IS linked with a progressive view that, at its best, rejects the ideas of violence and oppression entirely, two things that veganism also rejects. I still do not see many anti-theist vegans, because all ideologies have subscribers who take what works for them and not what works for everyone.

Humans are inclined to constructivism. We take what works in what we already know and feel to be true, and then inform it with new information. If your religion is not inherently vegan and you combine it with new ideas you are exposed to down the road about animals and then become vegan, awesome, but you didn't get there from your religion.

For most of us, Atheism is just a rejection of the religion around us, and so it wouldn't get us any closer to veganism than staying religious would. The counter-argument to this would be something along the lines of "rejecting religion makes you automatically more prone to rejecting other ideas." Maybe, but the religious reject plenty of common ideas as well.
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