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  Topic Review (Newest First)
11-30-2015 07:06 PM
silva She wasn't asking for opinions on her diet. I've witnessed a mans complete transformation after following Esselstyns diet, completely. He went from a second triple bypass, at which time was given last rites and his wife told to get his affairs in order, to a man running marathons, toned and muscular, and HAPPY> but that's only a small part of his story. His test results prove reversal of what had been termed a condition that could only be managed, not reversed.
Dr. Esselstyn is hardly a quack. He's head the Cleveland Clinics cardiology dept for years.Clevelands No fat, no oil groups are easily as active as their vegan counterparts.
And no, nuts are not included
11-30-2015 02:30 PM
Thalassa4
Quote:
Originally Posted by silva View Post
Um, this thread was started by someone trying to follow the ESSELSTYN PLAN for heart disease....and advocating nuts, or anything with fats is NOT helpful.

We have loads of other threads to discuss adding those kinds of foods.
We should maybe a thread for that diet as we've had people with heart issues come here for advice on plant based eating specifically geared towards that diet, then leave when it gets all sidetracked--like this thread
Sorry but I am inclined to follow advice of dietitians and nutritionists, not the advice of one strict diet. There are lots of strict diets that claim health but exclude one thing saying it's the cause of all overweight or high cholesterol. ..like the Atkins and Paleo people blame carbs, when the culprit is likely a combination of animal fat and sugar, rather than wholesome grains or starches...and while I understand that the OP has heart disease, putting this kind of stress on her body isn't good for her heart, either. ..I never advocated she add oils...but nuts, simply because of the fat/calorie deficit.

Here is one vegan dieticians perspective of this diet:

http://www.theveganrd.com/2010/03/fa...ld-you-go.html
11-30-2015 06:52 AM
Blue Gingham Agreed. But according to Dr. Esselstyn's site, OP COULD add a couple of tablespoons of flax or chia seeds daily and whole fruits, which would help get the calories up.
11-30-2015 02:56 AM
silva Um, this thread was started by someone trying to follow the ESSELSTYN PLAN for heart disease....and advocating nuts, or anything with fats is NOT helpful.

We have loads of other threads to discuss adding those kinds of foods.
We should maybe a thread for that diet as we've had people with heart issues come here for advice on plant based eating specifically geared towards that diet, then leave when it gets all sidetracked--like this thread
11-29-2015 04:07 PM
David3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thalassa4 View Post
Nuts are exactly what she needs to get up to about 1500-2000 calories. Weight loss doesn't work like that, especially if you do things like run. ..no. Athletes know this, that going too low with calories actually messes up your metabolism.

800-1000 calories a day is unacceptable, especially when someone does strenuous exercise.

.
I agree! Is it possible that you're confusing someone else's post with mine? I never recommended that this person eat 800-1000 calories per day.

The human brain contains very little fat. According to the University of Washington, the human brain is 78% water, and only 10%-12% lipids (fats): https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/facts.html . And, because an adult brain only weighs about 3 lbs. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_brain), the total fat content of the brain is only (3lbs.) x (0.12) = 0.36 lb., or 6 ounces.

Certain fats (omega 3 and omega 6 fats) must be consumed directly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega-3_fatty_acid . Other fats can be synthesized by the body - a process called lipogenesis: http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/lipogenesis
11-29-2015 01:59 PM
Thalassa4
Quote:
Originally Posted by David3 View Post
Veggiestez, this person is trying to safely lose weight. Telling her to fill up on nuts (700-1000 calories per cup) and olive oil (120 calories per TABLESPOON), isn't going to help. All mainstream vegan organizations recommend that people base their diets on legumes and grains, not high-fat foods. Legumes and whole grains contain a healthy level of calories (200 to 250 calories per cup). Nuts and seeds contain high levels of calories - they should be used in small amounts.


Also, telling this person to add coconut to her diet (119% RDI of saturated fat in a single cup:http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/...roducts/3106/2) is not going to help her with her heart disease. The American Heart Association, at least at this point, still recommends that people minimize saturated fat intake: http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Gettin...10_Article.jsp

Nuts are exactly what she needs to get up to about 1500-2000 calories. Weight loss doesn't work like that, especially if you do things like run. ..no. Athletes know this, that going too low with calories actually messes up your metabolism.

800-1000 calories a day is unacceptable, especially when someone does strenuous exercise.

About 1800 a day would be good, and nuts would give her that without added oil, or coconut.

The reason she stopped twitching after the chicken was likely calories and fat.

Fat is essential for the nervous system.
11-29-2015 01:45 PM
Thalassa4 Your calories are too low (800-900 is not acceptable, 1000 isn't even if you run that much now) and fat-free is bs. You need healthy fat for your brain and nervous system. Try eating avacado, nuts, olives. ..if you won't actually put oil on your food you need it from the source. Also flax seeds.

P.S. You won't lose weight if you don't eat enough calories and work out like that, your body will hold onto fat stores for dear life. ..you really need to add things like nuts and seeds to your meals or snacks.
10-07-2015 02:24 PM
silva
Quote:
Originally Posted by LedBoots View Post
She wasn't eating enough food, so resorted to eating birds. I was just advising her to eat more food, not unhealthy stuff. Essel-(can't spell his name) would want the OP to eat enough food so she doesn't resort to binging on junk.

I don't think every post with common sense advice needs citations or links.

Eating 900 calories/day and feeling weak? Don't need a study to figure that one out, how many zillions of posts have we addressed with a similar problem?
I certainly wasn't referring to your post!
Yes, but the OP was asking advice in tweaking a very extreme diet program and many here have given advice that completely goes against it. Saying she should add healthy fats, or even sweet fruits is not in the diet.
She does need help from the Esselstyn community, and if shes in a city there very well may be groups, if not, there are online communities.

Offering health advice that goes against what is asked is not helpful.

It is possible to eat upwards of 2000 cal on this diet.
Feeling good does not happen that quickly either> We're talking heart disease
10-06-2015 09:57 PM
Berry I don't think that you can get engouh protein with a vegan diet of only around 1000 kcal without adding vegan protein powder (or a alot more calories which is not the solution if you have health problems and should loose weight).
10-06-2015 06:52 PM
LedBoots
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea Rose View Post
We really don't know what she was eating at the time, or how often she was eating it. Unfortunately, you can become seriously ill within 3 days requiring hospitalization due to potassium being out of whack--something many doctors won't know is happening if they don't see you everyday and aren't there to monitor that you are doing what they advise you to be doing. It can happen just like that, so that's why I was posting, out of concern for the OP as it can quickly become a serious issue. But, I've said what I wanted to share, so I will drop it now. And let's hope that yes, she is getting and receiving good care.
Low (or high) potassium is uncommon. It will not normally become unbalanced low or high unless 1. One is on diuretic medication or 2. Bulimia and/or laxative abuse or 3. Have had a bad bout with diarrhea or 4. Have had IV fluids in hospital.
10-06-2015 06:47 PM
LedBoots
Quote:
Originally Posted by silva View Post
This needs to end. The OP was asking for advice in following THE ESSELSTYN DIET. Not just plant based, not weight loss, but a very specific diet from a leading cardiologist that has had proven results.

It is not helpful to say adding healthy fat, or even sweet fruits when the opening post was very adament that wasn't allowed.

I encourage anyone with heart disease to look into this. I have witnessed it's ability to bring a co worker not just back to life, but changed his life. Like Homer Simpson changing to Superman
She wasn't eating enough food, so resorted to eating birds. I was just advising her to eat more food, not unhealthy stuff. Essel-(can't spell his name) would want the OP to eat enough food so she doesn't resort to binging on junk.

I don't think every post with common sense advice needs citations or links.

Eating 900 calories/day and feeling weak? Don't need a study to figure that one out, how many zillions of posts have we addressed with a similar problem?
10-06-2015 02:27 PM
silva This needs to end. The OP was asking for advice in following THE ESSELSTYN DIET. Not just plant based, not weight loss, but a very specific diet from a leading cardiologist that has had proven results.

It is not helpful to say adding healthy fat, or even sweet fruits when the opening post was very adament that wasn't allowed.

I encourage anyone with heart disease to look into this. I have witnessed it's ability to bring a co worker not just back to life, but changed his life. Like Homer Simpson changing to Superman
10-06-2015 01:31 PM
SteveW You haven't mentioned fruit?

The body and brain loves the sugar so make sure you're getting more than enough!
10-06-2015 07:14 AM
veggiestez Hopefully it goes without saying that anyone with serious health concerns/issues would contact a professional foremost rather than rely fully on a post on an internet forum.

I appreciate the OP is trying to lose weight but i still believe healthy fats are healthy and necessary particularly in a vegan diet. From personal experience without adding fats I feel weak and hungry, even with lots of carbs. The OP is leading an active lifestyle.

But as a disclaimer, nothing I've said should ever replace professional dietary advice. My mistake in believing that went without saying.
10-05-2015 08:44 PM
Lymo
Quote:
Originally Posted by David3 View Post
Lymo,


Provide evidence to back up this statement. Also, don't "lol" when someone is trying to solve a serious problem.
Sorry. I'm not a doctor. Maybe I shouldn't comment on threads like these? I just interpreted the term "healthy, balanced diet" to mean that you should eat a variety of different foods in your life, which would mean "not the same thing every day, but a balance of different foods." Also, I was mostly saying she should eat lots of different varieties because it's boring not to.
10-05-2015 07:28 PM
zengoddess Hello and thanks to everyone who is posting to give me insight. I did start to track on cronometer...and it sure is a lifesaver. I am learning soooo much. I can exactly the minerals that I am taking in which is a huge eye opener. Eating this way is hard in the beginning I think, but will pay off. I am trying to avoid all added fats, according to the Esselytyne diet, however I have to do what feels right for my body.

I am wondering, when you use the crononmeter, are you supposed to have all your nutrients at 100% every day or is this a gauge because currently today, most everything is all the way green except for Vitamin E, potassium is at 72%, and Pantheatic acid (sorry wrong spelling) is lower, vitamin d is completely not green at all, but I do go into the sun every day for an hour to walk.

Funny thing is I just went to whole foods and bought a vegan cookie, it was deeelish, and I felt so much better after eating it. It was a fairly hefty cookie, so that leaves me to believe my body is craving some fats and calories. I was not feeling good I see why now in the beginning after tracking my calories I was only eating 900!!!! (in the first few weeks).

Thanks everyone for chiming in.
10-05-2015 03:58 PM
Tea Rose
Quote:
Originally Posted by silva View Post
You suggested the chicken might have helped due to its having potassium--she's already eating higher potassium sources.
Anyway, being under a doctors care for heart disease I'm sure that's being monitored!
We really don't know what she was eating at the time, or how often she was eating it. Unfortunately, you can become seriously ill within 3 days requiring hospitalization due to potassium being out of whack--something many doctors won't know is happening if they don't see you everyday and aren't there to monitor that you are doing what they advise you to be doing. It can happen just like that, so that's why I was posting, out of concern for the OP as it can quickly become a serious issue. But, I've said what I wanted to share, so I will drop it now. And let's hope that yes, she is getting and receiving good care.
10-05-2015 03:47 PM
silva
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea Rose View Post
I wasn't suggesting that chicken has more potassium than other foods (or advocating eating it), just pointing out that it does contain potassium and we really don't know what her levels were the week she ate it. So if her levels were already low, that might be an explanation.

zengoddess, I guess the question I have for you is, did the muscle twitching improve or disappear when you ate the chicken? That might be something to look at, as muscle twitching can be directly related to hypo or hyperkalemia.

I also agree with David3 that it would be a good idea to consult a dietitcian or physician for this issue.
You suggested the chicken might have helped due to its having potassium--she's already eating higher potassium sources.
Anyway, being under a doctors care for heart disease I'm sure that's being monitored!
10-05-2015 03:35 PM
Tea Rose
Quote:
Originally Posted by silva View Post
A cup of diced cooked chicken has 320 mg potassium. a cup of boiled black beans has 800 mg. Beans and lentils have far more than any meat, banana, or potato.

I suspect the chicken felt good more from a familiarity aspect and calories than anything else.
I wasn't suggesting that chicken has more potassium than other foods (or advocating eating it), just pointing out that it does contain potassium and we really don't know what her levels were the week she ate it. So if her levels were already low, that might be an explanation.

zengoddess, I guess the question I have for you is, did the muscle twitching improve or disappear when you ate the chicken? That might be something to look at, as muscle twitching can be directly related to hypo or hyperkalemia.

I also agree with David3 that it would be a good idea to consult a dietitcian or physician for this issue.
10-05-2015 03:32 PM
David3 Before answering, will everyone please:

(1) Read the original question carefully

(2) Gather facts from reputable sources (that is, from mainstream health organizations, mainstream vegan organizations and peer-reviewed studies), and

(3) Present those facts along with URL's to those sources?


So much of the time, I see people presenting opinions, and half-remembered blog entries, as if they were facts.

People come to this forum for serious nutrition advice. This is clearly a mistake, judging by the amount of unsubstantiated garbage that gets posted here.

The original poster stated that her health is currently threatened by heart disease and pre-diabetes. I have contacted her directly, and recommended that (1) she not rely on this forum for reliable nutrition information, and that (2) she instead work with a vegan-friendly Registered Dietitian in order to address her health issues.
10-05-2015 03:24 PM
David3
Quote:
Originally Posted by silva View Post
Too many people are advocating adding fats which is exactly what the OP is actively avoiding!

I have seen the most dramatic transformation of a man who not only regained the ability to live, but completely changed his physique, his mental attitude, his spirit, and ---has the proof of reversing heart disease so bad that he'd had several stents, two triple bypass ops and lived on drugs for years. And type2 diabetes with it which is completely gone. Both the heart disease and diabetes were genetic on both sides of his family.
It took him a long time to get with the program, but it was serious enough to where he preserved. Yes, it's extreme. So is heart disease.

She doesn't need advice to change her diet, she needs advice to make it managable.
@zengoddess , are you anywhere near meetups that follow Esselstyns program?

Finally, a voice of reason.
10-05-2015 03:19 PM
silva
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea Rose View Post
Yes, consider adding a banana to your diet. Muscle twitching and low energy can be due to a lack of potassium. It may be that you're doing nothing wrong in your diet whatsoever, and are really just lacking potassium. Missing potassium can make people feel exhausted. So can dehydration...how much fluids are you getting?

Be careful though, as potassium isn't something to fool around with. Too high of potassium levels also cause muscle twitching and other health problems. Either extreme is no good.

Other foods high in potassium are potatoes with skin, peaches, sunflower seeds and spinach.

Incidently, chicken also contains high levels of potassium. So if a lack in potassium was the problem, that might explain why you felt better after you ate it.

Hope this helps.
A cup of diced cooked chicken has 320 mg potassium. a cup of boiled black beans has 800 mg. Beans and lentils have far more than any meat, banana, or potato.

I suspect the chicken felt good more from a familiarity aspect and calories than anything else.
10-05-2015 02:56 PM
Tea Rose Yes, consider adding a banana to your diet. Muscle twitching and low energy can be due to a lack of potassium. It may be that you're doing nothing wrong in your diet whatsoever, and are really just lacking potassium. Missing potassium can make people feel exhausted. So can dehydration...how much fluids are you getting?

Be careful though, as potassium isn't something to fool around with. Too high of potassium levels also cause muscle twitching and other health problems. Either extreme is no good.

Other foods high in potassium are potatoes with skin, peaches, sunflower seeds and spinach.

Incidently, chicken also contains high levels of potassium. So if a lack in potassium was the problem, that might explain why you felt better after you ate it.

Hope this helps.
10-05-2015 02:18 PM
silva Too many people are advocating adding fats which is exactly what the OP is actively avoiding!

I have seen the most dramatic transformation of a man who not only regained the ability to live, but completely changed his physique, his mental attitude, his spirit, and ---has the proof of reversing heart disease so bad that he'd had several stents, two triple bypass ops and lived on drugs for years. And type2 diabetes with it which is completely gone. Both the heart disease and diabetes were genetic on both sides of his family.
It took him a long time to get with the program, but it was serious enough to where he preserved. Yes, it's extreme. So is heart disease.

She doesn't need advice to change her diet, she needs advice to make it managable.
@zengoddess , are you anywhere near meetups that follow Esselstyns program?
10-05-2015 01:18 PM
David3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lymo View Post
like don't eat the same thing every day, that's probably why you're tired. cause you're bored with your food lol. .


Lymo,


Provide evidence to back up this statement. Also, don't "lol" when someone is trying to solve a serious problem.
10-05-2015 10:24 AM
David3
Quote:
Originally Posted by veggiestez View Post
Try to fill up on calories from nuts, seeds and add coconut and advocados to your diet where possible. Use lots of olive oil too.

Veggiestez, this person is trying to safely lose weight. Telling her to fill up on nuts (700-1000 calories per cup) and olive oil (120 calories per TABLESPOON), isn't going to help. All mainstream vegan organizations recommend that people base their diets on legumes and grains, not high-fat foods. Legumes and whole grains contain a healthy level of calories (200 to 250 calories per cup). Nuts and seeds contain high levels of calories - they should be used in small amounts.


Also, telling this person to add coconut to her diet (119% RDI of saturated fat in a single cup:http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/...roducts/3106/2) is not going to help her with her heart disease. The American Heart Association, at least at this point, still recommends that people minimize saturated fat intake: http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Gettin...10_Article.jsp
10-05-2015 10:05 AM
veggiestez You need more healthy fats by the sounds of it. An easy way to do it is to snack on nuts and seeds- high in fat and protein. Fat is sooo important to maintain a healthy lifestyle particularly on a vegan diet which is generally low fat. Some people advocate eating lots of fruit but I personally don't recommend this as fruit contains a lot of sugar in the form of frutose and too much can lead to all sorts of issues. I think 1-2 pieces a day is enough. Try to fill up on calories from nuts, seeds and add coconut and advocados to your diet where possible. Use lots of olive oil too.
10-05-2015 09:42 AM
David3
Quote:
Originally Posted by zengoddess View Post
The first week I think I was eating not enough, I was having a hard time getting enough calories. I am taking a multi vitamin, also a liquid sublingual b vitamin. The interesting thing is I caved in and ate some chicken today and within about 20 min, the muscle twiching stopped and I started to feel good. Last week, I got short of breath and was dizzy. The calories the first week I admit was too low, about 800-1000. Then I started tracking and its been about 900-1200.

On Dr. Esselstyn's diet FAQ webpage, he directly addresses this question about feeling tired. Have you read this? Here it is:

"Tired, no energy – Why am I tired and have no energy since eating plant-based?

If you feel tired and lacking in energy, be sure you are eating enough calories. You have eliminated the high calorie foods: meat, dairy and oil so you simply need to eat more, especially beans, lentils, starchy vegetables and whole grains to make up the calories. Also exercise because you need to use energy to make energy. Depression also contributes to lack of energy. But first of all eat more."

Link: http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/faq/


Zengoddess, 900-1200 calories per day is the intake recommended for a sedentary 3-year-old !!!! https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/edu...calreqtips.pdf . Yes, you are trying to lose weight, but you are also athletically active! You need more calories than what you're currently getting.


The "CalorieKing" website has a calculator that recommends a calorie intake for safe weight loss: http://www.calorieking.com/interacti...hould-you-eat/ . I think you'll find that, for an active person of your age, height, weight, and activity level, you should be eating more like 1300 to 1500 calories per day, or even more.


Here is another website, from Harvard Medical School, that shows how many calories are burned by various exercises: http://www.health.harvard.edu/diet-a...ine-activities . Even 30 minutes of brisk walking burns almost 200 calories. Again, I think this demonstrates that you need to eat more calories, even though you are working on weight loss.

As Dr. Esselstyn says, in order to easily get more calories, just eat more beans/grains, and fewer green vegetables. You don't have to stuff yourself with green vegetables! 2-1/2 cups of cooked green vegetables per day is enough.
10-05-2015 09:42 AM
Gita I am McDougaling, not Esselsteining, because McDougal low fat vegan diet is more starchy, like based on potatoes beans, and rice with veggies where Esselstein is based more on veggies. To me there is a difference. I think you should try adding more beans and potatoes into your diet simply for the bulk and fullness.

Mustard, hot sauce and vegan soy sauce make excellent spices. Really get some antioxidants using spices like cayenne, turmeric, garlic. Use the dry stuff so you know there is no sugar in them.
10-05-2015 09:12 AM
LedBoots
Quote:
Originally Posted by zengoddess View Post
I switched the Dr. Esseltyne Diet after being a complete meat eater all my life. For the last month, I have had no added oil, sugar, meat, dairy. I would eat ezekial cereal and breads, lots of chickpeas, lentils, quinoa, brown rice, green smoothies with lots of veggies, flax seeds, oatmeal with cinnamon for breakfast. I feel like complete sh*t. Its possible I wasn't getting enough calories in the beginning as I am now tracking calories. Along with this diet, I started to jog/walk 2 miles 5 days a week.
Recently, I have felt tired, lots of muscle twitching. Taking b vitamin supplements, and a vitamin. I want to eat healthy so bad but caved in and bought a chicken tonight because I'm tired of feeling tired. The funny thing is, is that before I started this healthy eating, I ate avocados, hummus and chicken with no other veggies and felt great. I think in the beginning, I didn't eat enough..this is what my diet looked like.
breakfast 1/2 cup dried oatmeal with cinnamon and soy milk
snack sweet potatoe
lunch brown rice and chickpeas, or quinoa and kidney beans 1 cup of each (so 2 cups total)
dinner, 1 cup kidney beans, 1 cup cucumbers, 1.5 cup brown rice
I did this and felt great for about a week, then the tiredness set in. Can anyone help?
You need to eat way more food. You are weak because you are not getting enough calories. Vegans need to eat a lot more food than they may have been used to as omnivores, as most vegan food is very low calorie and high bulk. Eat!

Edited to add: And not chicken! You can stay on Essylt diet, just eat more!
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