I think that I have actually been vegan since summer 2012, yet I only started to use PETA's animal ingredients list at least ONE year ago. Does anyone know how to veganize shrimp fried rice? I miss it a lot.

You have no one in your life that you love that isn't vegan? Would you want your family members in jail or you spouse in jail for eating meat? There are good people in the world who eat meat. Putting people in jail isn't the answer to get people to become vegan.



And Welcome Jek! I know its hard but just ignore them. We all have deal with people making fun of us and saying mean comments to us once in a while.

I think i see what you're saying: that it's not particularly effective to jail smokers or meat-eaters OR to suddenly outlaw the production of cigarettes or meat without sort of easing into it first? I could get behind that, and in fact I think that's how it's likely to happen. I think we're already heading in that direction. As plant-based alternatives to animal products become progressively cheaper and more readily available, and as the environmental impact of animal agriculture becomes more apparent to the general public, more and more people will voluntarily choose to give up animal products until the production of these products is no longer profitable, at which point the whole system will collapse. That is my fervent hope, at least. It certainly seems preferable to me than suddenly outlawing anything.

we need to pass laws that put meat eaters in jail.

There is not "tolerance and complacency" towards murder here, there is an understanding of the wider problem affecting the majority of the populations perception of animal exploitation.



Most meat eaters aren't bad people and they don't deserve jail. You should learn more about cults, and then apply the difficulty of "deprogramming" cult members to a global scale. Meat eaters are *so* conditioned and brainwashed into believing meat is essential to human health, killing animals for food is a "necessary evil" and that humans are "better" than animals that they cannot see the error of their ways.



Most vegans have realized aggressive "scare tactics" do not work on the majority of the population, and are now looking for a different approach that is more effective.

agree to disagree but if this is a vegan forum ...

cannot believe the complacency and tolerance for murder here

If you were to outlaw the production of meat, then it follows that any farm would be illegal. Human trafficking is also illegal. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

The point of the cigarette analogy isn't that smoking cigarettes and eating meat are morally identical. The point is that if you wanted to do away with smoking, you would make the production of cigarettes illegal. You wouldn't throw smokers in jail.

Do you *really* believe that people who are currently eating meat have committed a jailable offense? You think that most people's grandmothers should be locked up? That the majority of the population of the world is guilty and deserving of imprisonment? Really?

I agree with everything you've said here, but your comments are still relevant. You posted:


This is clearly inconsistent with educating people and completely consistent with brute force. You want people to stop smoking? Don't tell them why, just ban cigarettes. You want people to stop going to the circus? Don't tell them why, just ban the circus. You want people to stop exploiting unwilling, underage prostitutes? Anyone who doesn't understand why that's wrong probably can't be reasoned with anyway.

This was the comment that I have been responding to in my posts. Being familiar with Necter's posts, I interpreted it literally. I am pretty sure that it was meant literally, as in: "we need to pass laws [effective immediately] that put [current] meat eaters in jail," which is a concept that I personally find ridiculous. I hope that it was, as you say, just venting. If so, then my own comments on the matter aren't really relevant anymore. I agree with you that we as individuals bear responsibility for our own consumption of animal products. That's why I'm vegan, after all. I do not, however, believe that everyone who hasn't already given up animal products is in any way deserving of punishment of any kind, certainly not imprisonment. I feel that it's a matter of education and persuasion rather than brute force and totalitarianism.

It's like advocating for the jailing of cigarette smokers rather than outlawing the production and sale of cigarettes: pointless and misguided.

we need to pass laws that put meat eaters in jail.

We're not talking about some abstract concept of blame, or the effect that an individual can have on the market (which I agree is substantial.) We're talking about punishment-- literally putting people in jail for purchasing a product which is entirely legal and socially acceptable. Are you really advocating for locking up kindergarten teachers and grandparents?

This post started off great and then went completely off the rails. Whole Foods was started as a tiny store that sold only vegan products. When asked why they got in bed with HSUS and "happy" meat producers, CEO John Mackey explained, "This is what people want."

All that matters in a free market is supply and demand. It's true that the suppliers try to manipulate the end users into buying more more more, but if the consumers were both smart enough to resist the manipulation of advertising and compassionate enough to recognize that harming animals is wrong, they'd all stop buying. Whether you kill an animal personally and then eat the corpse or kill the animal by remote control (by paying someone else to do the killing for you, behind closed doors, so you don't have to get your hands dirty or even witness the barbarity of it) doesn't matter. It's your consumption of the animal that causes that animal to be bred for the sole purpose of being killed. Truck drivers, butchers, and store owners in the middle of the supply chain are acting immorally, but they're only middle men.

The two quotes that forced me into veganism when I really didn't want any part of it (I was happily ovo-lacto-veg and great at rationalizing that decision) were from Gandhi and Thoreau. First, the Gandhi quote said, "What you do may be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it." The quote from Thoreau, when combined with the Gandhi quote, made it all click for me: "Only individuals act. Therefore, only individuals act unjustly."

As the end user and final consumer of eggs and milk, I was the individual acting unjustly and causing harm to cows and chickens. As you stated, if everyone stopped consuming animal products, demand would dry up, and production would decrease until it finally reached zero. Trying to blame producers, transporters, suppliers, etc., is merely a red herring. That's not to say they're blameless. But they're merely accomplices. The actual criminals are the end consumers, who as rasitha.wijesekera accurately pointed out, usually tend to defend their actions even when confronted with the most damning evidence.

I'm guilty of it. First I rationalized eating meat by excusing it through moral relativism, although I didn't know the name of it at the time. After I stopped eating meat, I rationalized eating eggs and milk by believing that it was possible, at least in theory, to produce eggs and milk for human consumption harmlessly. And in turn, just because no human was smart enough to figure out how to harmlessly put these theories into practice on a massive scale, I had decided that wasn't my fault, and I was going to blame the producers for the harm suffered, rather than blaming myself. Gandhi and Thoreau combined to beat some sense into me and I haven't looked back since. I could no longer blame the advertisers, farmers, society, culture, etc.

Paul McCartney (a non-vegan) wrote this: "You tell me it's the institution, Well, you know, You'd better free your mind instead."

The problem wasn't the institution. It was me. The institution was only problematic to the extent that it attempted to manipulate and control me, but I was able to overcome it, and so can anybody else who wants it badly enough. Eight years ago today I turned vegan, and I still feel shame and bewilderment at my previous selfishness and thick-headedness. I'm not proud of the past eight years. I'm ashamed of the previous 28.

I understand why it's important to not take too hard a line when trying to educate people because it can be a turn-off, depending on where they're coming from. But if we let go of all our anger, we become complacent and too accepting of things the way they are.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw

If you were to outlaw the production of meat, then it follows that any farm would be illegal. Human trafficking is also illegal. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

The point of the cigarette analogy isn't that smoking cigarettes and eating meat are morally identical. The point is that if you wanted to do away with smoking, you would make the production of cigarettes illegal. You wouldn't throw smokers in jail.

Do you *really* believe that people who are currently eating meat have committed a jailable offense? You think that most people's grandmothers should be locked up? That the majority of the population of the world is guilty and deserving of imprisonment? Really?

No. If most people abhor meat, then farms won't exist and meat will no longer be available for purchase. There isn't any need to pass laws which imprison people for eating meat. I don't understand why you're focusing on consumers (who are, in fact, innocent people who happen to have been born into a society which normalises the commodification of animals) rather than on the industry which is actually producing and profiting off these animals. It's like advocating for the jailing of cigarette smokers rather than outlawing the production and sale of cigarettes: pointless and misguided.

Not really, people could still keep their own animals, run their own farms. Most people don't like human trafficking but it still happens coz a few wants it.

Anyways, Meat eaters aren't innocent because they were bred into this society which accepts animal abuse.
Show a random person a cruelty expose, show them facts about farming and environmental impact, what do you think most people would do? They ll make excuses as to why they are still right and we are wrong.

There's also a difference between drugs and meat. Drugs atleast mainly harms the user, whereas meat mainly harms the animals.

If most people (maybe 95%) abhor meat, then laws will be passed to put people in jail for eating meat.

I don't know why vegans(in this thread) overwhelmingly oppose a law against meat consumption, coz I remember another thread where everyone was saying damn I wish a law was in place to ban meat. (I believe it was a thread about overpopulation)

we need to pass laws that put meat eaters in jail.

See, I don't actually believe that the extremists put people off veganism (because nobody makes important life decisions based solely on the attitudes of random activists they encounter primarily on the Internet), but at the same time I don't think they do any good. It's more of an annoyance, I think, to those of us who are already vegan. I find myself rolling my eyes so hard it's almost painful whenever I hear someone wish death or misery upon meat eaters. It's dishonest at best, sociopathic at worst, and just plain misguided all around.

I didn't know where the animal products I was eating came from and was raised in that typical sort of family... Except, there may be something I was guilty of, about when I fished, aware of their sentience. Unless it is true that I could still be evil, that event makes me suffer from an inferiority complex, for it makes me want to make examples out of those illogical people not because I ignore that I once was a speciesist... But to try to scare people so much that it would undo my evil actions.

You have a lot to learn, Jek.

Your post was full of hate and images of violence. It reflects very poorly on vegans as a whole.

You will never change anyone's mind by bludgeoning them over the head. In general, the harder you push, the harder they will resist.

I suggest simply living your life in as virtuous a manner as possible. When you encounter people who, at that time in their own lives are open to change, you will have an impact upon them and inspire them to change.

Maybe they will change because they see the great health benefits being a vegan has brought you. Maybe it will be because they see what a kind and compassionate person you are. I absolutely guarantee it won't happen if you are annoying, preachy, or self-righteous.

Knowing that there are 16-year-olds as passionate about animal welfare as you are makes me feel good about the future.

See, I don't actually believe that the extremists put people off veganism (because nobody makes important life decisions based solely on the attitudes of random activists they encounter primarily on the Internet), but at the same time I don't think they do any good. It's more of an annoyance, I think, to those of us who are already vegan. I find myself rolling my eyes so hard it's almost painful whenever I hear someone wish death or misery upon meat eaters. It's dishonest at best, sociopathic at worst, and just plain misguided all around.

You mean that hypothetical "we". The hypothetical "if 90% of the world were vegan instead of 1%"

That line of thinking threatens the existing 1%
How about we strive to make being vegan seem obtainable and beneficial instead?

You seem to think that if someone says they thought about trying veg'n but all the extremists drove them away are lying.
I may not have totally converted anyone (ASAIK), but I have gotten many who have felt that way to eat veg'n a whole lot more, after they had completely turned to think it was a stupid idea

we need to pass laws that put meat eaters in jail.

agree to disagree but if this is a vegan forum ...

cannot believe the complacency and tolerance for murder here