|Topic Review (Newest First)|
|09-02-2015 05:47 AM|
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|09-02-2015 04:29 AM|
|09-02-2015 04:14 AM|
This is how I see it...I don't think there is a solution. You can't take a word like "vegan" and expect it to mean too many different things. It needs a standard and consistency. And those who meet the criteria deserve to have it that way, IMO.
Generally speaking, there are people who want to blur the lines and that's where the debate comes in. Why can't they be just be happy to be on their own personal journey? It's pretty much where I've evolved to over the last ten years. I don't own the title, vegan. I don't eat meat, eggs or dairy...except for the rare occasion where I'm away from home and need to eat. I will have the veggie burger that contains egg white or the ww bun that has honey. Sometimes you feel like having more than just a salad.
I mostly buy/use cruelty free products but I'm not 100% there. It's ok that I'm not vegan. I don't even know what I am. As elitist as it may sound, I don't think I'm in the same category as a vegetarian who eats eggs/dairy just because I might have something like a non vegan veggie burger or piece of bread four times a year.
It's almost like the vegan title is some coveted thing...I admit it's pretty darned cool. But if someone wants the title they should own up to it and not try to water the meaning down.
Geesh...I got on a roll there. I'm not even sure I'm on the right track as to the intent of this thread. Hope I didn't make things worse. I'm all about the peace and love, man.
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|09-01-2015 08:13 PM|
i didn't notice anything tbh - i am a newcomer, but i know my stuff when it comes to veganism I'm pretty knowledgeable already and I have to be so that I have an answer for all my family's interrogating questions. I would say that everyone should be wary on forums, yes there's a lot of lovely people here but it's still the internet, and the internet has no boundaries :/ people can say whatever they want, and yes you might find it offensive or hurtful.
So yeah - just be wary - and don't rise to the trolls
|09-01-2015 05:28 PM|
I have to be honest. This is the kind of thing I find exhausting. I understand emotions are going to be strong on subjects and there are going to be controversial issues and we're not always going to see eye-to-eye on everything. But it's tiring when even here, there is discord and negativity. Of course there will always be some, and that's normal, but honestly... If we're going to get into heated arguments about every little thing don't we kind of miss the point? We're all here for similar reasons and we are all trying our best in the way we feel is right for us. Do the technicalities matter? Does it really matter what those who eat meat think about us right NOW? Or if someone points out that some vegans can be a bit extreme sometimes? Or that that particular cartoon has an underlying message (intentional or not, we don't know the thoughts of the artist) demonstrating complete ignorance? We're all completely ignorant in some way or another and some people will never ever learn certain things. Isn't it more important that we try to change perceptions together rather than pointing out faults? Let's try and work together, support each other and help others realise we aren't crazy, hostile people. We can just see what is going on and we don't like it, and we want to help others realise the same. How we do it is going to be different for each person. But hey - we all learned in a different way, right? And different tactics and styles will work on different types of people. So let's embrace our differences, realise we don't always have to agree, and take everything with a pinch of salt, not getting too upset before we know the intention of the poster.
I'm not in any way saying we shouldn't speak our minds but we should be able to have civilised discussions without getting upset if we keep in mind we're all (I think) well-intentioned and want the best for the cause.
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|09-01-2015 03:12 PM|
|no whey jose||
|09-01-2015 11:48 AM|
The disconnect between "newcomers" and "old timers"
the problem is man, out in the real works we wouldn't be able to function while constantly being in battle with meat eaters.
I believe that's why most of us don't confront them. For one, we'd be isolated and ganged up against in a argument we'd never win.
Second, however much right we maybe, they'll just call us crazy and ignore all arguments against meat eating, citing our perceived craziness. (which might be counter effective)
I see is it as why most veg*s rarely confront others in real life(this is what I see from anecdotal evidence)
There's still too many meat eaters in the world for us to force them to change their ways. (unlike racism or homophobia)
|09-01-2015 11:07 AM|
|09-01-2015 10:41 AM|
I don't call them "omnivores" because humans are all omnivores. I don't call them "carnivores" because they are not. They are omnivores who eat meat, thus meateaters. Not an insult in my book.
What is offensive to me is your telling me I have been "doing it wrong"'all these years. Have you raised a vegan child? Feed daily an adult family member vegan and be criticised for it? Do you know me? Ever come to one of my work potlucks with my vegan offerings? Ever had one of my red velvet vegan cakes that I give to friends/coworkers for birthdays? Were you one of the many kids/teen friends of my children that I fed vegan in my home? That is how you convert others.
Ever heard me insult a meateater? I don't. I feel that you are making generalizations about vegans that are not true. Substitute a religion, race, gender, or disability for veganism and it would be considered bigoted the insults that fly. Just suck it up, even on the vegetarian forum. Mmmmmmmkay.
And... out of this thread, it is not my refuge.
|09-01-2015 09:46 AM|
But it's much deeper and multi-dimensional. This cartoon, whether or not intended by the author, demonstrates the complete and utter lack of understanding of non-vegans who wonder aloud what would happen to all the cows if we stopped eating them. The inability of many people to visualize the long-term reduction in suffering that would result in a world in which cows are not raised for food is intertwined into this simple cartoon about a goldfish. They don't stop to ask where the goldfish came from, nor do they realize that this particular fish exists only because a human being bred the fish in captivity for the purpose of financial profit. They merely look at the goldfish in the current moment and decide that keeping the fish in a small bowl is the best option available, because "any life is better than no life."
|09-01-2015 09:44 AM|
i am not new to being a vegetarian, and in fact my fervor has grown over the years.
i dropped meat at 18 years of age and never looked back
|09-01-2015 09:31 AM|
|09-01-2015 09:28 AM|
But, why do we then hand out this same insult, query, and ridicule right back to omnivores? There's a vicious cycle that needs to be broken. We can close our eyes and keep repeating the same argument over and over, but it'll be in vain. We can break the cycle. I've found myself saying the following a lot lately (at least to people that I have to deal with on a daily/semi-daily basis), "I understand your perspective, I don't agree with it, but I understand it."
Just because I understand someone's viewpoint doesn't mean I have to agree with it. However, it helps me with future discussions, because I now know where they're coming from. A thorough counter-argument makes sense in discussions (as long as it's fair and objective), because it shows that you're a reasonable person that has considered both sides of the debate. It makes your argument stronger and more persuasive.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not offended. But if you have to constantly defend your family's choices, you're doing something wrong.
If this site is going to be a 'refuge' where we bash anyone and everything outside of our own view, then this site sure doesn't sound like a 'refuge' to me.
|09-01-2015 09:22 AM|
I admit that I have little patience for those who use veg*nism simply as another scorecard to publicize their own superiority, and I also have little patience for dogmatists in any area of thinking/philosophy. Unfortunately, it's apparently a human trait to be especially prone to exhibiting those very traits when on is a recent convert to any cause, whether it is animal rights or religion, exercise, weight loss, etc. IME, the more a newbie to veg*nism exhibits these traits, the less staying power they seem to have.
|09-01-2015 09:07 AM|
|09-01-2015 09:06 AM|
|Beautiful Joe||As for the comic, I saw it as a comment on those in the AR movement who take action without any consideration of the animals they are supposedly liberating or otherwise helping.|
|09-01-2015 09:02 AM|
to be a meat eater is a disgusting life choice and i do consider meat eaters to be lesser human beings !
i guess i'm one of those horrible crazy newcomers, huh?
|09-01-2015 08:47 AM|
If you think that is too "emotional", sorry to offend. I've been defending my, my son's, and my disabled husband's choices to be vegan for over a decade now. It gets old.
|09-01-2015 08:40 AM|
|no whey jose|
|09-01-2015 07:58 AM|
Also, we need to learn to laugh at ourselves. While this is a joke, it's also making a serious point. My initial reaction was similar to yours--I didn't think it was funny. However, the more I thought about it, the more I both (1) laughed at myself for sometimes getting too serious and (2) kept my own reactions in check regarding people's ignorant comments.
ETA: Also, seriously? Calling someone a meateater in a derogatory manner? We're all humans, some just have differing opinions. Next time someone calls you a nickname that you don't like, just remember what you call others.
|08-31-2015 04:53 PM|
I guess some of us newbies are kind of shy, eh? Personally, I find that my approach to anything is usually far too harsh. In fact, I can be very insensitive thanks to factors of my upbringing, which I'm trying to work on by being around more compassionate types.
So, yea, I don't post much (yet) because I'm "feeling it out" so to speak.
P̶l̶u̶s̶ ̶I̶'̶m̶ ̶k̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶z̶a̶n̶y̶. O_o
|08-31-2015 03:14 PM|
|08-31-2015 10:26 AM|
You will lose the battle immediately if you argue with an ignorant person.
For people that have open minds, discussions are great! There are two viewpoints in every argument. Of course, we think the one believe in is the better viewpoint, but the other person has the opposite belief. If we can discuss these issues like normal people, rather than making ignorant comments back and forth, maybe we can make some light bulbs go off in peoples' heads. The point of a discussion is to discuss.
If we're so set in our ways that we can't even discuss, then why even join the conversation? Don't. It'll be better for everyone if you don't join in.
I'd like to say that sometimes people get pretty darn defensive over an opinion. Or, they may state something in such a way that makes their opinion sound like fact, when it's just an opinion. Emotions play a big part in a lot of the comments and discussions on here.
I saw this the other day, and it immediately made me think of some of the responses I've seen on here over the past few years. I'm not trying to offend anyone, but sometimes I personally think people go too far with their comments or their attempt at comparisons.
|08-30-2015 08:30 AM|
|Danny Boy||As a newbie to this forum I'll be happy to be share my experience here and my comfort level. I'm not new however to internet forums as I'm a moderator on a spiritual forum and have been a bit of a turbo poster on a motorcycle forum. So my shy factor is probably not what a newbie may be here whose new to internet forums. One of the things that I noticed, that worked for me, is to become a buddy to a new member just like when we would transfer to a new school as a child and the teacher would ask someone in the classroom to show us the ropes. Reach out to the new one, become friendly personally and who knows; you might make a true friend out of them.|
|08-29-2015 09:17 PM|
|ToriannB||I am a new vegan who enjoys the discussions. Yes there is conflict at times but it is to be expected. Ive recently started a blog about my journey. https://venusvegan.wordpress.com/201...m-as-a-choice/|
|08-29-2015 07:14 PM|
Some of us are straight talkers, some of us are more gentle, some are new and some are older members. We all have things in common or we wouldn't be here. The majority of us are vegetarians or vegans for ethical reasons. We are here to get information, advice, ideas and support from like-minded people. It doesn't mean we're all going to have the same personality but above all else, we're all here for pretty much the same reason. Older members can help us newbies out with their knowledge while younger members can bring an energy that maybe gets a bit faded with time and habit kicking in. We'll all calm down eventually once we figure it all out but that energy CAN be useful.
I think one thing is to respect other people's decisions and lifestyle choices even if they differ from your own. I actually don't see a lot of judgement around here. It's good to share information without a judgemental tone and then let that person make up their own mind based on their own moral sensitivities and research. Then hopefully other people can see that a person is just stating facts, and not get overly sensitive about what those facts suggest.
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|08-29-2015 11:17 AM|
I understand what you mean, but, we're a bunch of people. It's hard when you're new anywhere because you don't see the nuances, the different sides to people.
It's really the same for older members responding to new posters. They take the post at face value where if it were from someone they were familiar with, the words would be tempered with familiarity.Like 'gee, they sound like they're having a bad day, or maybe they just had a bad experience'. When you meet someone new, on both sides, you have nothing else to go on. I've certainly reacted to a brand new post in a way I regretted and have tried to correct myself. Sometimes I wish people would edit posts when they've changed their views.
I recall one regrettable post I made to someone who felt judged because she liked the processed foods. I basically said so do I and that no one was being judgemental and she should toughen up. She left. I felt badly, mostly because then I realized exactly what she saw!
On the one hand, we need to be nice, but then to, this is a forum where we speak what can;t be spoken elsewhere! Sometimes I think we all take advantage of that and vent way more strictly on our opinions than we really feel when challenged.
Another thing is we get jaded by -you know- 'trolls'. It takes a while to figure that out. Like when we get threads like 'would you eat if you had to'. Yeah, we tend to brace ourselves! The last time though, it became a very interesting discussion, and I ended up feeling very wrong for how I judged that poster, and said so.
But like everything else, we're an assorted bunch.
"Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get"
Oh, and @SeanSmith -- you get in here! Ask questions, give opinions, give your views and temper what you get back. I remember feeling negatively about some members that I grown quite fond of after finding more of why they feel as do.
|08-29-2015 09:21 AM|
How does one define "encouragement" though? What may be encouraging and helpful to one person may come across in an entirely different way to another. Would prefacing with things like "in my personal opinion" be helpful? Perhaps try to read between the lines a little and see if the poster seems to have the personality type your style of encouragement would be beneficial to, and if not, don't post?
Just asking questions since you've brought up 2 good points we could explore further
|08-29-2015 09:14 AM|
The point of this post was to bring up NO ONE should feel they shouldn't be posting just because their style of writing, thinking, thought, opinions, feelings and/or experiences are too different from everyone else, whether that be on the softer or rougher side of things. There has got to be a way for everyone get along without certain people being forced to mask how they feel. I have not been posting as much on this forum on actual vegan-related topics in past weeks because I fear being misinterpreted for having a slightly less idealistic, more jaded/harsh opinions. That "gentle emotional support" thing is not me, but I have a lot of knowledge and advice and experience that could be very beneficial to share still. Should I feel unwelcome/unwanted in discussions of vegan topics because of my preference for more "straight up" (factual or honest opinion) answers as opposed to softening it up a bit?
When I went vegetarian, my experience was that of 0 support, absolutely no one/where I could turn to for support and endured an excessive amount harassment, intimidation and general torment over it. My experiences shaped my opinions, my knowledge and the advice I feel beneficial to offer to others. Does that make my posts less valid because some come into this in a 'world' where they have communities online that offer gentle encouragement, support, and society in general is more accepting of "different" types of people? Does that mean perhaps people like me shouldn't post? It's starting to feel that way. I was *hoping* to figure out solutions we could all work on so no one is feeling left out or like they don't matter because they are different.
|08-29-2015 05:56 AM|
I'm an oldbie, feeling like a newbie because I know just about as much about veganism as someone who's gone vegan overnight; while it took me five years.
Keeping an open mind is key I think, and that goes both ways. Oldbies shouldn't think they know it all because they're in the movement for so long, and newbies shouldn't get discouraged just because some longtimers do ''better'' than them.
Don't be too quick to judge, but encourage. The encouraging atmosphere here has definitely helped me to eventually make the switch.
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