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03-07-2015 06:46 AM
River
Quote:
Originally Posted by rasitha.wijesekera View Post
I agree with your point, the problem is a child molester is openly considered bad by the society, it's easy to treat them badly. Omnivorism is pretty much the accepted norm(shouldn't be) so our parents, relatives, lovers are still omnis. So it's hard to think of omnis as bad even for us
If you read my earlier post, that is what I say. It doesn't mean I respect them, which is the point of the later post.
03-06-2015 09:58 PM
LeThieu92 Wow! Some of the extreme comparisons and arguments in this thread were, let's say interesting.

Let's keep in mind we are all here because we love animals and think they aren't ours to use in anyway other than to share our planet with . Progress is slow but people are waking up. Instead of comparing omnis to sexual deviants and homophobes, let's keep raising awareness of the issues. There will be lots of suffering to come, but eventually there won't be any. It isn't okay that there is still going to be all that suffering however with every major change in history there has been suffering along the way. Let's not let that fill us with hate.

As Ellen would say, be kind to one another :P


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk
03-04-2015 10:00 PM
rasitha.wijesekera
Quote:
Originally Posted by River View Post
Why, though? Don't you question that wisdom a little?



Why should you treat a homophobic person the way you would want to be treated? Or someone who touts the joys of bacon?



Would you treat a child molester as you wish to be treated? One of the ways society organizes itself is by accidental ostracizing and treating certain behaviors or attitudes as wrong.

I agree with your point, the problem is a child molester is openly considered bad by the society, it's easy to treat them badly. Omnivorism is pretty much the accepted norm(shouldn't be) so our parents, relatives, lovers are still omnis. So it's hard to think of omnis as bad even for us
03-03-2015 10:50 AM
MozIsMyShepherd
Quote:
Originally Posted by River View Post
I don't really think veganism altering relationships is quite the same as homophobia.

1. Omnivorism is a choice.
2. Homosexuality is not a choice, and even if it were, it isn't hurting anyone.
3. Adult consensual relationships do not hurt anyone.
4. Eating animals and their biproducts leads to direct suffering, torture, and exploitation of many "someones"
5. If eating animals is a choice, then eating animals is a choice to engage actively in the suffering, torture, and exploitation.
6. If engaging in adult consensual relationships does not hurt anyone, then being in an adult consensural relationship doesn't hurt anyone.

.:. Omnivorism and homophobia are not the same thing.

I don't understand this ultra liberal idea of extreme cultural relativism. If a culture, sub culture, or whatever, believes in doing abhorrent things then they do not deserve my respect or good will. Homophobes, for example, do not get my good will or kind attitude. Neither do people that constantly go on and on about the joys of bacon.
I totally agree
03-03-2015 10:36 AM
River
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeggieMonsta View Post
River, my point is REGARDLESS of someone's differences - chosen or not - treat others as we wish to be treated. That's it, end of story.
Why, though? Don't you question that wisdom a little?

Why should you treat a homophobic person the way you would want to be treated? Or someone who touts the joys of bacon?

Would you treat a child molester as you wish to be treated? One of the ways society organizes itself is by accidental ostracizing and treating certain behaviors or attitudes as wrong.
03-03-2015 10:27 AM
VeggieMonsta River, my point is REGARDLESS of someone's differences - chosen or not - treat others as we wish to be treated. That's it, end of story.
03-03-2015 09:35 AM
River
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeggieMonsta View Post
People don't choose to be homosexual, they are born that way, and yet there are people that still shun them as dirty vermin among society. I believe you treat others as you wish to be treated, regardless of cultural or lifestyle difference. I may not like certain things but I will keep humanity the best that I am able.
I don't really think veganism altering relationships is quite the same as homophobia.

1. Omnivorism is a choice.
2. Homosexuality is not a choice, and even if it were, it isn't hurting anyone.
3. Adult consensual relationships do not hurt anyone.
4. Eating animals and their biproducts leads to direct suffering, torture, and exploitation of many "someones"
5. If eating animals is a choice, then eating animals is a choice to engage actively in the suffering, torture, and exploitation.
6. If engaging in adult consensual relationships does not hurt anyone, then being in an adult consensural relationship doesn't hurt anyone.

.:. Omnivorism and homophobia are not the same thing.

I don't understand this ultra liberal idea of extreme cultural relativism. If a culture, sub culture, or whatever, believes in doing abhorrent things then they do not deserve my respect or good will. Homophobes, for example, do not get my good will or kind attitude. Neither do people that constantly go on and on about the joys of bacon.
03-03-2015 09:17 AM
VeggieMonsta People don't choose to be homosexual, they are born that way, and yet there are people that still shun them as dirty vermin among society. I believe you treat others as you wish to be treated, regardless of cultural or lifestyle difference. I may not like certain things but I will keep humanity the best that I am able.
03-01-2015 03:44 PM
leedsveg In threads like this, the idea of 'respect' often crops up and gets people excited but as I don't believe in free-will, it has little impact on me. I do get both bemused and fascinated though that people can get so hung up about it.
03-01-2015 01:28 AM
Tiger Lilly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirchoff888 View Post
Maintaining relationships with omnis is one thing, but I don't see how a vegan san sit next to or across from someone while they are tearing into a bloody steak or chicken breast. For you people that love meat eaters, how the hell do you get through the holidays with them?
I don't look at their plates.

It's the simplest way for me to get through it. I just block it out. If I didn't block it out, then I'd be an emotional mess and they'd have another 'reason' to not consider what they were doing because they could put "not eating animals makes you emotionally unstable" on the list of reasons not to go veg.

I basically try to treat it as an opportunity to be a good representative for animals. I'm not saying I don't show emotions, but I make calculated attempts to bridge a subject when I think it's going to be at it's most effective. My "not being there" for a family event, doesn't make my family think of vegetarianism. But by sitting across the table from them with my lovely bowl of vego goodness, I'm showing them there's an alternative.

Whether that's the truth or not, that's how I get through it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirchoff888 View Post
I'm sure you know this, but being a vegan is not just about diet, it's a way of life. It shows that you care about the weak and defenseless (animals), those that are starving, your health, the environment, and future generations. You are a living example of the change you want to see in the world. Being vegan is that deep, so I don't understand why on earth a vegan would date someone that contradicts their core values. It's not like a couple with minor differences of opinions and tastes when it comes to things like fashion, sports, music, etc.

As it has been mentioned, we don't have a choice when it comes to family, so those relationships are somewhat understandable.
But we do have a choice when it comes to family. We don't have to spend time with them. Sharing a genetic code or a last name seems like a pretty poor reason to hang out with people that are against our 'core values'. It's at least as poor a reason as "chemicals told me this person is attractive".

And yet.... 99% of the people I know eat animals. But I don't see that action as being directly opposed to my core belief, I don't think they hold a position directly opposite to my core belief that animals deserve to live. I think that they're engaging in actions that run counter to their core belief, they just don't get it.....Yet. Me not hanging out with people who eat meat isn't going to change their minds.


As to the general discussion around 'respect'? I tolerate those who eat meat. I can't respect them. But I tolerate it.
02-28-2015 09:39 PM
River
Quote:
Originally Posted by brookgirl View Post
I would like to point out that stating someone does not deserve respect because their values are different from your values is not only incredibly offensive, but also a very dangerous way of thinking that should never be considered acceptable. Perhaps my response could have been worded more eloquently and less emotionally, but I don't think I'm taking anything too seriously or being too aggressive (as a side note to MozIsMyShepherd, the "you" in my post is meant to represent a hypothetical third party, not you specifically in the second person.)

In response to Kirchoff888, thank you for illustrating my point so perfectly. Everything I mentioned is a very real, serious social issue. However, because they are not issues near and dear to you, you brush them aside as "straw man arguments" and dismiss all my points as invalid or off topic. Is this not exactly how most omnivores respond to veg*n arguments? Does this make them any less deserving of respect? Or, in terms of familial and/or intimate relationships, any less deserving of love? My answer is absolutely not.
I don't think it's wrong or dangerous to not respect someone for holding certain beliefs contrary to deeply held beliefs.

I, for instance, do not respect extremely religious people, racists, homophobes, or anti-feminists. I tolerate omnis out of social imperative and the knowledge that many may come around. Respect is something one or a group earns based on their actions or deeds, not something given freely. To respect is to legitimize. I do not feel racism, homophobia, anti-feminists, or extremely religious people deserve my respect anymore than someone who blithely wears fur. Or someone, who after sincere consideration of the exploitation of animals still chooses to eat animals, does not deserve my respect.
02-28-2015 08:04 PM
rasitha.wijesekera
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirchoff888 View Post
You claim you respect life, yet you respect people's decision to eat animals that are tortured and killed? Does not compute. To a degree I can understand people here looking the other way while their significant other or family members partake in the animal holocaust, but at least they don't claim to respect that behavior.

I agree. But it's hard to openly not respect the choices of your family or loved ones. Being open about how you don't respect their morals would lead to arguments & hurt feelings.
02-28-2015 05:50 PM
jessandreia I think you can not respect someone's particular choice to eat meat, but still respect them for their other abilities and other traits.
02-28-2015 04:34 PM
brookgirl I would like to point out that stating someone does not deserve respect because their values are different from your values is not only incredibly offensive, but also a very dangerous way of thinking that should never be considered acceptable. Perhaps my response could have been worded more eloquently and less emotionally, but I don't think I'm taking anything too seriously or being too aggressive (as a side note to MozIsMyShepherd, the "you" in my post is meant to represent a hypothetical third party, not you specifically in the second person.)

In response to Kirchoff888, thank you for illustrating my point so perfectly. Everything I mentioned is a very real, serious social issue. However, because they are not issues near and dear to you, you brush them aside as "straw man arguments" and dismiss all my points as invalid or off topic. Is this not exactly how most omnivores respond to veg*n arguments? Does this make them any less deserving of respect? Or, in terms of familial and/or intimate relationships, any less deserving of love? My answer is absolutely not.
02-28-2015 01:54 PM
River
Quote:
Originally Posted by MozIsMyShepherd View Post
When did I say I was a saint? There's no need to be so rude and aggressive
Methinks she is taking it waaaaay too seriously.
02-28-2015 11:51 AM
MozIsMyShepherd
Quote:
Originally Posted by brookgirl View Post
That's ridiculous. There are a million acts of evil we all commit every day and simply choose to ignore.

Look at the tags on your clothes. Are they Fair Trade or Made in America? Don't you know how awful sweat shops are? Clearly you don't deserve respect since you're choosing to wear something produced under such inhumane conditions.

Do you own any jewelry made of precious stones or metals? Do you own a cell phone or other device whose battery runs off mined minerals? Have you gone the length to make sure these products weren't mined using slave labor? If not, you clearly deserve no respect.

Have you ever watched porn without doing a full background check on all the actors and actresses? As someone who was forced into porn at a young age, I can tell you not everyone is happy to be there to get you off. You must be flat out evil for watching when you know you could be supporting human trafficking, and you certainly must not deserve my respect.

Have you ever tossed out uneaten food or shoved an unworn jacket further back in your closet when you know there are people in your community who are cold and hungry? Have you ever walked past a homeless person and ignored their pleas or lied, saying you have nothing to spare, when in reality you could easily fork over a twenty and go without your daily latte or whatever other little luxuries you afford yourself? How does someone like that deserve respect?

I'm making a lot of assumptions here, and perhaps not all of them are accurate. However, I'm sure my point is clear. Modern life makes monsters of us all, whether we care to look closely enough to realize it or not. Not eating meat doesn't make you a saint. It just means you're choosing to forego one of the more visible every day evils. My boyfriend, who according to you deserves no respect, donates every spare penny he has to charity and has spent countless hours volunteering with Habitat for Humanity. I think that demands some respect, don't you? Our world is full of incredibly convenient evil. Choosing to ignore this is awful. However, it's impossible for one person to care about everything all the time and still function in modern society. It's too much. No one can save the world single handedly.

I'm sorry for the rant, but it's really ****ty to say someone doesn't deserve respect simply because they haven't adopted your cause as their main cause.
When did I say I was a saint? There's no need to be so rude and aggressive
02-28-2015 11:00 AM
Kirchoff888 That’s quite a list of straw man arguments you’ve compiled. Stay on topic. We are talking about people’s relationships with animal eaters.
You go on and on about issues that affect human beings, but at least they have choices and opportunities to escape their predicaments. Animals do not. Stop with the ridiculous comparisons.
Back to our discussion. If someone consumes animal products, they are not entitled to protection from the exposure to the evils of factory farming. If they close their eyes and ears to the truth of their actions, that decision is not worthy of respect. These are probably the same people that pet and hug their dogs while chowing down on a bucket of chicken.
02-28-2015 10:26 AM
brookgirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by MozIsMyShepherd View Post
If you've been trying hard to educate someone and they still refuse to give up meat what does that say about them??

Yes most of us used to eat meat too but at least we saw the light and followed it, but anyone who is shown the evidence of how bad what they do is and still ignores it does not deserve respect
That's ridiculous. There are a million acts of evil we all commit every day and simply choose to ignore.

Look at the tags on your clothes. Are they Fair Trade or Made in America? Don't you know how awful sweat shops are? Clearly you don't deserve respect since you're choosing to wear something produced under such inhumane conditions.

Do you own any jewelry made of precious stones or metals? Do you own a cell phone or other device whose battery runs off mined minerals? Have you gone the length to make sure these products weren't mined using slave labor? If not, you clearly deserve no respect.

Have you ever watched porn without doing a full background check on all the actors and actresses? As someone who was forced into porn at a young age, I can tell you not everyone is happy to be there to get you off. You must be flat out evil for watching when you know you could be supporting human trafficking, and you certainly must not deserve my respect.

Have you ever tossed out uneaten food or shoved an unworn jacket further back in your closet when you know there are people in your community who are cold and hungry? Have you ever walked past a homeless person and ignored their pleas or lied, saying you have nothing to spare, when in reality you could easily fork over a twenty and go without your daily latte or whatever other little luxuries you afford yourself? How does someone like that deserve respect?

I'm making a lot of assumptions here, and perhaps not all of them are accurate. However, I'm sure my point is clear. Modern life makes monsters of us all, whether we care to look closely enough to realize it or not. Not eating meat doesn't make you a saint. It just means you're choosing to forego one of the more visible every day evils. My boyfriend, who according to you deserves no respect, donates every spare penny he has to charity and has spent countless hours volunteering with Habitat for Humanity. I think that demands some respect, don't you? Our world is full of incredibly convenient evil. Choosing to ignore this is awful. However, it's impossible for one person to care about everything all the time and still function in modern society. It's too much. No one can save the world single handedly.

I'm sorry for the rant, but it's really ****ty to say someone doesn't deserve respect simply because they haven't adopted your cause as their main cause.
02-28-2015 08:40 AM
veggiestez
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirchoff888 View Post
You claim you respect life, yet you respect people's decision to eat animals that are tortured and killed? Does not compute. To a degree I can understand people here looking the other way while their significant other or family members partake in the animal holocaust, but at least they don't claim to respect that behavior.
I respect people for being human beings, that's part of my stance on life. I think we are talking semanics here as I don't respect the act of animals being killed AT ALL, but I respect human life because often people come from a place of unconsciousness rather than desire to do harm. Respecting someone's decision doesn't mean I like or agree with it. I don't look the other way as I'm very open about my feelings and beliefs. Someone may come up with reasons for me not to be vegan (although I'd disagree of course) but still respect my choice. I guess it comes down to that, for me.
02-28-2015 08:39 AM
MozIsMyShepherd
Quote:
Originally Posted by veggiestez View Post
I think that if I let my beliefs destroy my love for those who ate meat I'd be shooting myself in the foot, as it were. I believe in respecting life and that includes respecting people's decision to eat meat. It can be really hard though. I try to educate rather than preach or judge. Most of us ate meat once too; relatively few were born and raised vegetarian or vegan.
If you've been trying hard to educate someone and they still refuse to give up meat what does that say about them??

Yes most of us used to eat meat too but at least we saw the light and followed it, but anyone who is shown the evidence of how bad what they do is and still ignores it does not deserve respect
02-28-2015 08:32 AM
VeggieMonsta My husband is my most respected and favourite person in this universe, and while he is veggie-friendly, he still consumes fish. He is also the kindest most gentle person I know. I would not be so fast to chuck him into such a blanket statement. I agree, it's important to stand for what one believes in and educate where possible, but to shun those that are different - wrong.

I am super Liberal, as well, fully support Women's Rights and equality for the LGBT community but have many friends and family members that disagree on these social issues (in some degree of another) and I still deeply value their friendship and love.
02-28-2015 08:30 AM
Kirchoff888
Quote:
Originally Posted by veggiestez View Post
I believe in respecting life and that includes respecting people's decision to eat meat.

You claim you respect life, yet you respect people's decision to eat animals that are tortured and killed? Does not compute. To a degree I can understand people here looking the other way while their significant other or family members partake in the animal holocaust, but at least they don't claim to respect that behavior.
02-28-2015 08:00 AM
veggiestez I think that if I let my beliefs destroy my love for those who ate meat I'd be shooting myself in the foot, as it were. I believe in respecting life and that includes respecting people's decision to eat meat. It can be really hard though. I try to educate rather than preach or judge. Most of us ate meat once too; relatively few were born and raised vegetarian or vegan.
02-26-2015 04:46 PM
RiggerBoots If he/she respects your decision, it would be somewhat unfair not to respect theirs. That said there is ideals, and there's no saying you couldn't have both someone and someone who shares your stance. I don't think it would ruin someones chances with me, after all you could influence them to be "better" than they otherwise would be.
02-26-2015 02:41 PM
oodlesofnoodles My vegetarianism is my choice. I completely understand the impact that large scale vegetarianism/veganism would have on society, however I also understand that others close to me don't share these view for two main reasons; 1 - they are (sadly) desensitized to the suffering of animals (specifically commonly eaten animals like, cows, pigs and chickens) 2 - they have no interest in changing their diet due to 'old habits', or they 'think it would be expensive/difficult'/they enjoy the taste too much.

Although, of course, I wholly disagree with both aforementioned reasons, I tolerate other peoples choices, as long as they do not talk to me about their eating habits, like I don't really speak to them about mine.

I feel like this is the reason why I don't have a problematic relationship with my meat-eating partner, as we just don't talk about it. Obviously, I would encourage him to quit eating animal products, but I (try to) understand he doesn't want to quit, and he respects that I have quit.
02-25-2015 10:23 PM
Go Vegan I guess that is what I was suggesting - if they don't mean much to you, and they aren't vegan, it's probably best to move on...But if they mean a lot to you then you may well be unable to just leave them...In that case nurturing any interest they may have in animal welfare issues is probably the best thing you can do/ the only thing you can do...
02-25-2015 09:33 PM
MozIsMyShepherd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Vegan View Post
I agree!

I think dating people trivially is different to a life-long committed relationship though so if someone is already married, as in Naturebound's case, the best thing they can do is encourage/ nurture their significant other's interest in animal welfare...
I think all depends on the degree of triviality. If you are but "special" buddies and see each other for one need only then you won't even notice the difference. However, if you are engaging in a variety of activities (which is a more likely case scenario assumed when thinking of the term "dating someone" however trivially, right?) that will involve a variety of venues to meet you will sooner or later be eating together... So, how much patience and understanding are you prepared to give to your "trivial" date when you see them chewing a cow in front of you? And if they are even a wee bit attentive they are bound to notice there is never any steak/cheese/eggs on your plate and that's when you explain to them you are vegan and they will no doubt reveal their true colours.

So I think the more "trivial" your date is the less likely you are going to want to tolerate their unvegan behaviour. I'm not even sure I'd want to be "special" buddies with them anymore after witnessing their barbaric table habits, after all they don't bother thinking about how what they are doing is affecting your emotions.

I say if your trivial date is inconsiderate and disrespectful with regards to your lifestyle and beliefs why bother with them?
02-25-2015 08:48 PM
brookgirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirchoff888 View Post
As it has been mentioned, we don't have a choice when it comes to family, so those relationships are somewhat understandable.
Do you think we really have a choice in whom we love? Maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic, but I think love is like a lightning bolt. It happens with no rhyme or reason. It isn't something we can orchestrate or choose. I couldn't have chosen not to love my boyfriend because he eats meat any more than I could have chosen not to love my ex because she was a woman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirchoff888 View Post
Maintaining relationships with omnis is one thing, but I don't see how a vegan san sit next to or across from someone while they are tearing into a bloody steak or chicken breast. For you people that love meat eaters, how the hell do you get through the holidays with them?
That part is tough! I've had a lot of practice though. I've been strategically choosing the seat farthest from the turkey / ham since I was five. It helps that my boyfriend and his mother help me ingredient check all their relatives' dishes. Dang, I love them so much!
02-25-2015 08:31 AM
rasitha.wijesekera
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristy Collicutt View Post
My fiancé does eat meat, but that will never change my feelings towards him. He isn't a full-out meat eater though. He doesn't eat bacon, beef (except for the RARE time), ham or steak. He does eat turkey and chicken, but that's about it. He does have a huge heart for animals though, he always takes care to buy old age meat (animals who are basically too old and are already dying) he will not buy it from a grocery store. And he does eat vegetarian meals at least 2x a week.

Old age meat? how? where?
02-24-2015 10:58 PM
Go Vegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirchoff888 View Post
I'm sure you know this, but being a vegan is not just about diet, it's a way of life. It shows that you care about the weak and defenseless (animals), those that are starving, your health, the environment, and future generations. You are a living example of the change you want to see in the world. Being vegan is that deep, so I don't understand why on earth a vegan would date someone that contradicts their core values. It's not like a couple with minor differences of opinions and tastes when it comes to things like fashion, sports, music, etc.


As it has been mentioned, we don't have a choice when it comes to family, so those relationships are somewhat understandable.
I agree!

I think dating people trivially is different to a life-long committed relationship though so if someone is already married, as in Naturebound's case, the best thing they can do is encourage/ nurture their significant other's interest in animal welfare...
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