VeggieBoards - Reply to Topic
Thread: ASPCA grants money for Chicken Killing Reply to Thread
Title:
Message:
Trackback:
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


  Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

  Topic Review (Newest First)
08-27-2012 11:38 AM
VeggieBean

I just think it's great to have a forum where these discussions can happen without omni's giving us the evil eye grin.gif At least we know everyone here is pretty much on the same page. Debate is a very healthy way to get to the heart of the issues. Thanks for sharing guys. 

08-25-2012 03:03 PM
penny79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poppy View Post

I'm sorry, but if you think that the discontinuation of gestation crates means that pigs are no longer factory raised, you are gravely mistaken. Getting rid of gestation crates provides only slightly better living conditions, but still insures a premature death; over-crowded, filthy conditions; and no access to any sunshine until the day they are trucked to the slaughter house. They do not get to live natural lives with their offspring. no.gif
"Free-range", "organic" or "cage-free" do not mean anything concrete welfare-wise.
Animal welfare is a very tricky thing because while it may improve the lives of a small percentage of animals, it allows the general public to feel a whole lot better about eating them. Unless we continue to promote veganism as the only solution, animals will continue to suffer in immense numbers.


Yep!

08-25-2012 02:49 PM
Poppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joan Kennedy View Post

At least you stay around to try and defend your points.

We can say the same about you.
08-25-2012 02:46 PM
Joan Kennedy

We can agree that I'm not at all cool, but we'll just have to disagree on whether it's cool for a newcomer to attack a longstanding anti-cruelty group without staying around to defend either the logic or the bona fides of that attack. At least you stay around to try and defend your points, which makes you cool in my book. And I do appreciate the chance to air this disagreement in a public forum, because I think it's reflective of a larger dialog among different animal interest groups. And it encourages people to examine their beliefs instead of just reacting knee-jerk with whatever the party line says to say in this situation. You represent your viewpoint with conviction and logic, even if I still disagree with the logic.

08-25-2012 02:19 PM
Poppy I personally don't think it's at all cool to accuse a new member of being a CCF operative after only 3 posts. Especially given that the three posts are on three different topics, except all deal with animal cruelty. I suspect that when this person reads something that upsets him/her, s/he simply comes here to share. Perhaps s/he doesn't like us well enough to stay and post much - and who could blame? laugh.gif
08-24-2012 08:49 AM
VeggieBean

Thank you for the information Joan. I think you may actually have a good argument there, and it is weird that AD hasn't bothered to offer anything further to the conversation. I think any stand against an animal welfare organization is completely counter-intuitive and most people who really care about the animals, and not making a point, will support whatever options are out there to reduce animal suffering. Just getting people to switch from factory farmed to heritage/ethically farmed meat is dang near impossible. Trying to get my husband to not eat sliced ham from the grocery store has been an ongoing war, I couldn't even imagine trying to get him to just go cold turkey vegan! Its' a work in progress, and we should work together. If weird creepy Factory Farm folks are infiltrating the boards then we need to be extra vigilant in making sure we are standing together on the issues. 

08-23-2012 10:28 AM
Joan Kennedy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poppy View Post

I see nothing absolutely in AnimalDefender's brief history to suggest that s/he is from a factory farming, alcohol, tobacco or puppy mill support group. One post is the one above, about the ASPCA supporting heritage chicken breeding and slaughter, another post is about how Michael Vick should never be allowed to own dogs again, and the final post is about police shooting the escaped zoo animals in Ohio and how tragic it is for these exotic animals to contained in unnatural surroundings. huh.gif


It's not that I think it's a certainty, but it does fit the way the CCF operatives infiltrate message boards to stir up sentiment against their adversaries: lob a grenade and then run in the opposite direction. And fail to respond when confronted. Animal Defender's e-mail will probably let him or her know about this thread's most recent activity, and he or she can come back and clear things up. Might be a perfectly nice person, but I've been on other boards infiltrated by CCF ops, and this all rings familiar. I would have been remiss not to air it as a possibility; nobody appreciates being duped.

08-23-2012 10:17 AM
Poppy I see nothing absolutely in AnimalDefender's brief history to suggest that s/he is from a factory farming, alcohol, tobacco or puppy mill support group. One post is the one above, about the ASPCA supporting heritage chicken breeding and slaughter, another post is about how Michael Vick should never be allowed to own dogs again, and the final post is about police shooting the escaped zoo animals in Ohio and how tragic it is for these exotic animals to contained in unnatural surroundings. huh.gif
08-23-2012 08:30 AM
Joan Kennedy

Okay, I just hope what you're thankful for isn't being fed directly to you by Center for Consumer Freedom or its shady operatives. CCF has been gunning for ASPCA for years. For those unfamiliar with CCF, it is an organization that lobbies on behalf of the fast food, factory farming, alcohol, tobacco and puppy mill industries. When they troll message boards like ours, they don't necessarily write about issues they or their clients care about. They write about wedge issues they think the readers on the board will care about, because it's all about trying to do damage to groups that work against CCF's client interests. I hate to engage in profiling, Animal Defender, but so far you sure do fit the profile.

08-23-2012 08:22 AM
Poppy Frankly, I'm thankful for the information. And while I certainly don't work for any peta organization, I do share AD's rancor about animal welfare organizations supporting the breeding and slaughter of any chickens anywhere.
08-23-2012 07:55 AM
Joan Kennedy

By "let them be" I mean not join vegetarian forums under false pretenses with the specific purpose of fomenting opposition to the activities of hard-working, well-respected animal welfare groups. Most of whose donation dollars come from people who do eat meat and would benefit from being enlightened on factory farming practices. Animal Defender, you may have noticed, has not been part of this conversation since it opened. Also, only three posts since joining nearly a year ago.  I suspect this person is working for a factory farm lobby. Not necessarily of course, but that is how they operate. That is the interest that has most to lose if heritage chickens and their eggs gain a foothold in the diets of  consumers who care where their food comes from. I wouldn't be surprised if this person was in the employ of petakillsanimals or another branch of its parent organization, Center for Consumer Freedom. Or he/she could come back and join the conversation. I'd like to know where the rancor is coming from.

08-23-2012 06:46 AM
Poppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joan Kennedy View Post

Poppy, I still don't get what's the problem with vegans promoting veganism as the only answer, while leaving the animal welfare groups such as ASPCA to lobby for improvements in the living conditions of farm animals. The rancor displayed toward ASPCA by the OP doesn't seem to be coming from a rational place. I understand not supporting or endorsing AW groups, but why not just let them be?

I hear what you're saying about trivial "improvements" that just mask the overall horror of factory farming. But any movement encouraging the use of pastured heritage breeds rather than confined Frankenbirds is positive, and not trivial. For an operation to be able to display "Certified Humane" on the final product, that farmer must do a lot more than provide "only slightly better living conditions" for the animals. 

What do you mean by let them be? You don't think we should discuss this issue because the two groups, the vegans and the omni animal welfarists, operate in such different spheres that we vegans should just ignore them and be happy that a minuscule number of male chickens might be allowed to live?

I do understand that improvements in any awful conditions is a wonderful thing for a few lucky (?) animals. But unless we recognize it as being a dangerously slippery slope, consumers will be deluded into thinking that choosing this egg over that egg, this bacon sandwich over that bacon sandwich is a much more ethical decision than it really is. In general, people don't want to hurt animals, that's a fact. But people need to understand that the only way to do that is by going vegan. Profit margins are important to agriculturists large and small, and animals are simply a product to be processed in a way that maximizes profits.

I think the op's point about donations is an excellent one. When you send a donation to the ASPCA, you expect it to go toward anti-cruelty programs. If you agree that pre-mature slaughter is cruel, the whole argument for supporting heritage breeds goes out the window.
08-22-2012 08:35 PM
4everaspirit

I agree with both poppy's and joan's point. No clear answer on what would be better to do.....
 

08-22-2012 08:18 PM
Joan Kennedy
Quote:
Originally posted by Poppy:
 
I'm sorry, but if you think that the discontinuation of gestation crates means that pigs are no longer factory raised, you are gravely mistaken. Getting rid of gestation crates provides only slightly better living conditions, but still insures a premature death; over-crowded, filthy conditions; and no access to any sunshine until the day they are trucked to the slaughter house. They do not get to live natural lives with their offspring. no.gif

 

Poppy, I still don't get what's the problem with vegans promoting veganism as the only answer, while leaving the animal welfare groups such as ASPCA to lobby for improvements in the living conditions of farm animals. The rancor displayed toward ASPCA by the OP doesn't seem to be coming from a rational place. I understand not supporting or endorsing AW groups, but why not just let them be?

 

I hear what you're saying about trivial "improvements" that just mask the overall horror of factory farming. But any movement encouraging the use of pastured heritage breeds rather than confined Frankenbirds is positive, and not trivial. For an operation to be able to display "Certified Humane" on the final product, that farmer must do a lot more than provide "only slightly better living conditions" for the animals. 

08-22-2012 06:57 PM
VeggieBean
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poppy View Post

I'm sorry, but if you think that the discontinuation of gestation crates means that pigs are no longer factory raised, you are gravely mistaken. Getting rid of gestation crates provides only slightly better living conditions, but still insures a premature death; over-crowded, filthy conditions; and no access to any sunshine until the day they are trucked to the slaughter house. They do not get to live natural lives with their offspring. no.gif
"Free-range", "organic" or "cage-free" do not mean anything concrete welfare-wise.
Animal welfare is a very tricky thing because while it may improve the lives of a small percentage of animals, it allows the general public to feel a whole lot better about eating them. Unless we continue to promote veganism as the only solution, animals will continue to suffer in immense numbers.

Gestation crates were an example (thus the further emphasis on filthy conditions, castration, and sadistic nutcases with cattle prods).

 

But really it's not so much arguing the semantics. At the end of the day it's still just sad to me that we can't - even amongst ourselves - agree on what is best. Animal welfare could have the potential to do a lot more than it's doing, and yes, the side effect could be people feeling better about eating animals...but let's face it, they don't seem to feel too bad about eating them even when they're in horrible conditions. It may not be ideal, but once again I have to ask myself, as a living, breathing creature, just like the animals stuck in those horror houses...what would I want people to be fighting for on my behalf? I always fight for the ultimate, but I won't condemn organizations that are trying to save even one animal from something that is a fate worse than death, and unfortunately you are absolutely not going to convince everyone in America (and the billions of people outside of American) to be vegans in this lifetime or any lifetime soon. So it's either return to a more humane treatment of animals raised for food, with vegans backing the greater movement at every opportunity, or fight the Animal Welfare organizations trying to get these animals in to better situations, no matter how slightly better, until the greater battle can be won. Human's will eventually give up meat in their own self-interest (it's killing people left and right from every disease under the sun and destroying the environment) but billions of animals will be dealing with Factory Farm living while we get those humans to get with the program. I'm not on board with animals suffering so I have a better argument to make to omnivores.

 

However, I actually do agree with you. I think most animal rights advocates would. Ethical farming is still apt to screw up and make animals suffer, will still contribute to environmental issues, and will still eventually kill animals for consumption by humans and those humans will eventually die horrible unnecessary deaths by the consumption of flesh. But I would rather wage those battles with a good number of animals out of the hands of people skinning them alive and  cutting off their body parts just to listen to them scream (believe me, I'm aware of the realities). It's not really a matter of picking one battle or another, but in assuring there are as few civilian casualties as possible while the war is being waged.

08-22-2012 05:56 PM
Poppy I'm sorry, but if you think that the discontinuation of gestation crates means that pigs are no longer factory raised, you are gravely mistaken. Getting rid of gestation crates provides only slightly better living conditions, but still insures a premature death; over-crowded, filthy conditions; and no access to any sunshine until the day they are trucked to the slaughter house. They do not get to live natural lives with their offspring. no.gif

"Free-range", "organic" or "cage-free" do not mean anything concrete welfare-wise.

Animal welfare is a very tricky thing because while it may improve the lives of a small percentage of animals, it allows the general public to feel a whole lot better about eating them. Unless we continue to promote veganism as the only solution, animals will continue to suffer in immense numbers.
08-22-2012 03:24 PM
VeggieBean
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joan Kennedy View Post

 

"We" meaning vegans, right? What's wrong with vegans advocating for veganism and animal welfare groups advocating better treatment for farm animals?

 

I understand that the "C" in ASPCA stands for "cruelty," and that's doubtless part of the issue here. To be vegan is to believe all animal slaughter except euthanasia constitutes cruelty. But I think it makes animal rights activists look bad when they use footage of  farm animal mistreatment as recruiting tools, and then turn around and rail against the groups that are fighting those same abuses. To try and supplant factory-bred chickens with dual-use, pastured heritage breeds is to fight virtually every poultry abuse which AR activists have ever gone undercover to film. Of course, better-raised meat is not the vegans'  fight, but why not just leave the animal welfare groups to do what they can in the arena of public policy? Does it really come down to competition for scarce donor dollars? As long as omnivorism is mainstream, surely there is room for both streams of effort?

Agreed. Omnivorism is a reality. Vegan's should definitely help other's to become vegan, but animal welfare groups should work to stop the atrocities against animals in factory farms. 

 

I understand the desire to stop practices that will most likely lead to different types of abuses, but what we have happening right now needs to end now. There is no room for bickering between animal welfare advocates when so much is at stake. Take it one issue at a time. Vegan activism should be strong, but we need to get those animals out of those factories. If you asked a pig which they would prefer, I'm guessing the farm without the gestation crates vs. waiting another hundred years to convince everyone to be a vegan. If I was the pig, that would be my take on it anyway!

 

If someone was going to kill me, and I could

 

A) Spend the years leading up to it in a cold filthy cell being tortured by sadistic nutcases with electric cattle prods and watching my babies have there intestines ripped out in botched castrations 

or

B) Spend a few years getting some sunshine, making friends, and having my babies be treated with respect 

 

I would choose 

 

C) To live a long and happy life without the threat of death

 

But since there are a bunch of crazy meat eating loonies out there who want to chop me up, and there is literally nothing that can stop it for another few decades, I'll take Option B - When vegans manage to get other vegans on board I will be the happiest pig in the world and my dreams of Vision C will finally come true. 

08-22-2012 02:51 PM
Joan Kennedy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poppy View Post

 If we do not advocate for veganism, then we're advocating for continued animal abuse.

 

"We" meaning vegans, right? What's wrong with vegans advocating for veganism and animal welfare groups advocating better treatment for farm animals?

 

I understand that the "C" in ASPCA stands for "cruelty," and that's doubtless part of the issue here. To be vegan is to believe all animal slaughter except euthanasia constitutes cruelty. But I think it makes animal rights activists look bad when they use footage of  farm animal mistreatment as recruiting tools, and then turn around and rail against the groups that are fighting those same abuses. To try and supplant factory-bred chickens with dual-use, pastured heritage breeds is to fight virtually every poultry abuse which AR activists have ever gone undercover to film. Of course, better-raised meat is not the vegans'  fight, but why not just leave the animal welfare groups to do what they can in the arena of public policy? Does it really come down to competition for scarce donor dollars? As long as omnivorism is mainstream, surely there is room for both streams of effort?

08-22-2012 04:38 AM
LedBoots
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poppy View Post

I agree with Karen Davis completely. There is no such thing as humane slaughter, and raising animals to die premature deaths just to satisfy our greedy bellies and taste buds is inhumane.To allow animal agriculture to delude us into thinking that these animals are living "happy" lives just allows the abuse to continue, and it can never be sustained on a large-scale basis. If we do not advocate for veganism, then we're advocating for continued animal abuse.
This. ^^
08-21-2012 05:48 PM
Poppy I agree with Karen Davis completely. There is no such thing as humane slaughter, and raising animals to die premature deaths just to satisfy our greedy bellies and taste buds is inhumane.To allow animal agriculture to delude us into thinking that these animals are living "happy" lives just allows the abuse to continue, and it can never be sustained on a large-scale basis. If we do not advocate for veganism, then we're advocating for continued animal abuse.
08-21-2012 04:42 PM
VeggieBean

Joan, I love your thoughts on this. ASPCA is not a Vegan organization and if Omni's want to find more humane ways of treating animals they have my wholehearted approval. 

 

I think we get caught up sometimes in the wrong issues. We are working together on this, and I am always saddened and angered to see all the fighting that goes on between animal rights organizations and the people who support them or refuse to support them. We're all on the same team. If the organization you support isn't in line with your values, ask yourself if they align with most of your values and work on helping them do the things you do agree with. 

 

We need the organizations as a voice when it comes to legislation and getting the word out on animal cruelty. Let's work with each other, instead of against each other. I assure you the world will not be vegan in this lifetime, our children's lifetime, or most likely even our grandchildren's lifetime. What we can do in this lifetime is save animals from lives of torture. I hate to be the negative nancy, but you won't save them all from death. 

08-11-2012 01:29 PM
peace

I was going by the relatively low level of attention given to farm animal issues on their website in years past, but things are improving. I had also recalled an Animal People article which said an ASPCA president was fired for publically supporting vegetarianism. I thought this was relatively recent, but when I revisited the article, learned it had actually happened in 1991. http://www.animalpeoplenews.org/07/6/editorialmoralmeat6_07.html

08-11-2012 10:49 AM
Joan Kennedy

No two dog trainers handle discipline - or define pain - the same way. For example, on teaching a large dog not to pull on the leash: On my own dogs I've used halters, startling with noise, halting the walk over and over, clickers and treats when they heel properly. This in contrast to the most common methods (a choke chain, a quick snap of the leash, or a prong collar, all involving pain). But I couldn't make those gentler ways work on every dog, and using them at all was a real learning curve for me. Some dogs just wait you out and wear you down, plus I did better with my fourth dog than I did with my first.  Also, almost everyone detests the idea of shock collars, but many of those same people quietly turn to them as a last resort before giving up on a problem dog, or with electric fencing, or when there are pressing safety issues involved.

Anyone who wants factory farms to change their cruel, filthy, confined, disease-promoting methods should tolerate ASPCA's efforts to help the competition. AR activists rely on video footage of cramped and unsanitary conditions, baby chicks being ground up alive, debeaking, etc. These activists would need a whole new set of talking points if the industry had to move toward the methods used by the poultry companies ASPCA supports.

Heritage breeds mean no more ground-up baby chicks, because the male chicks aren't considered "useless" in the dual-use paradigm. It means no more top-heavy Cornish-cross broilers that can't forage, can't walk 10 feet to a watering system, can't do anything but stuff themselves and grow for six weeks til slaughter time. Pasturing means no more de-beaking. The birds aren't so crowded they're prone to fight one another, and they need those beaks to forage with. ASPCA is not a vegetarian or vegan pressure group. It's an anti-cruelty group that concerns itself with animals' living conditions, not the fact that they are bred and raised for food. I don't see the controversy here, I don't see what's behind the overblown negative reaction by OP to this ASCPA grant. When omnivores work on animal welfare issues, why would that get veg*ns all spun up? Someone who has posted very little, and left the conversation right after starting it, could be working for the factory farming lobby the way people from petakillsanimals are. Not necessarily the case with AnimalDefender here, but it's always a possibility

08-10-2012 03:57 PM
whisper ...
08-09-2012 02:53 PM
Joan Kennedy
Quote:
Originally Posted by peace View Post

ASPCA really hasn't done much to fight factory farming, either. They're mainly a "dogs and cats only" group.


http://www.aspca.org/fight-animal-cruelty/farm-animal-cruelty/aspca-and-farm-animals.aspx       Peace, is ASPCA lying here that you know of? I've always understood cruelty to farm animals to be a major focus of that group. That, plus circuses, horses, hoarding and puppy mills. And, as you mentioned, dogs and cats.

08-09-2012 01:27 PM
peace

ASPCA really hasn't done much to fight factory farming, either. They're mainly a "dogs and cats only" group.

08-07-2012 05:40 PM
Joan Kennedy

Here is the ASPCA press release. I understand why vegetarians and vegans wouldn't be donating money to this kind of effort, but I don't understand why we'd be up in arms when ASPCA does. It's not vegetarian-run. ASPCA has never taken a position against eating meat per se, but against the deplorable conditions food animals live with. Someone's going to have to explain to me why I should be angry about omnivores trying to improve the living conditions of animals raised for food. I do get why you'd be disappointed if you've been donating money to them. I just don't get why you'd be surprised. This is the sort of activity animal welfare orgs like ASPCA do all the time.

 

http://www.aspca.org/Pressroom/press-releases/051512

08-07-2012 12:59 PM
Poppy Yes, thank you!
08-07-2012 10:50 AM
Patty J

Does this one work?

http://www.animalpeoplenews.org/anp/2012/07/14/the-american-spca-grants-151000-to-help-a-poultry-producer-expand-operations/

08-06-2012 04:41 PM
Poppy I can't open the link. sad.gif
This thread has more than 30 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off