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  Topic Review (Newest First)
11-11-2012 01:36 PM
drowsyturtle I [used to] eat honey so rarely that it just doesn't matter to me. It's probably a little bit harder to cut out than egg or dairy, because it doesn't appear under allergy advice on packets. If something contains small amounts of honey or beeswax, so be it, but I won't buy honey or anything which clearly has honey in it.
11-11-2012 12:26 PM
SweetViolet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer C View Post

I just read Main Street Vegan and the author brought up the whole honey debate, which honestly, I didn't think was a debate at all but after reading the book, I looked it up and the vegan honey debate is everywhere. 

 

It's very confusing and both sides of the debate (use bee products vs. don't) make good points.

 

I know I need to make my own decision, but I'm, interested in where everyone here stands when it comes to honey and beeswax?

 

Oh, and until I make a decision, I'm just avoiding bee products anyhow. 

Honestly, I don't even bother listening to anyone's side, because I already know that bees are part of the animal kingdom. All insects are, in fact, animals.  Using honey or beeswax is no different than using milk, ethically.  If you're using the product, then you're using the animal.

 

Now, me personally, I use dairy(I'm not vegan--just trying to be honest and giving my thoughts) but since the bees are dying, I won't touch honey or wax.  If I were a vegan, I wouldn't touch either. 

 

If you like, I have a link to homemade vegan "honey", made from flower blossoms and sugar.  I bet you can substitute local blossoms and use beet or cane sugars. (I hope I can put a link up, sorry if I am doing wrong) http://www.food.com/recipe/homemade-honey-18862

11-11-2012 12:15 PM
SweetViolet
Quote:
Originally Posted by 'IckenNoodleSoup View Post

How did the early vegan community feel about insects? Were they always included in the no harm to animals ideology. Me? I'm much less concerned about the wellbeing of insects than of animals. I eat honey and will use byproducts, and while I am reducing the amount of eggs and dairy we use, I can't see myself ever not eating honey for ethical reasons.

Insects ARE animals. They are a part of the animal kingdom.  That is a fact, whether we like it or not.  I'm just stunned that people seperate insects from animals.  I mean, if people insist on eating honey and using beeswax, I wish they would just be honest about it.

 

Bees are animals.  This can be easily looked up.

11-11-2012 11:44 AM
English Teacher
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer C View Post

I don't think our bodies are made to digest large doses of fructose in highly processed foods or processed foods in general. Plus, from all I can find out most agave is processed with high temps (defeating the whole "it's raw" argument) and caustic acids, among other stuff.

 

I could care less if agave is raw or not, because I'm not a raw foodie, but any food companies who market their products incorrectly enrages me to no ends, so I tend to avoid companies like that. I have special issues with agave because many green bloggers I know are touting it as the new black in health food, due to how it's been marketed, when really it's not much different than HFC. 

 

That said, if I come down on the side of no honey, I'll just stick with certified organic sugar only, as it's about 50% less processed and refined than other sweeteners. I don't use many sweeteners anyhow, but in the past I used organic honey in ice pops and baking. 

 

Organic beeswax I suppose is the bigger issue for me. I don't know much about how that is processed. 

 

caring.png

11-11-2012 11:09 AM
runnerveggie Saving mosquitoes is a most worthwhile endeavor, indeed. Everyone knows mosquitoes never bite twice. They certainly never become so engorged with blood that they explode when you brush them off of you.
11-11-2012 06:26 AM
holothuroidea

How do you shove a mosquito away?

 

Anyway, if the mosquito's already bitten you there's no point in killing it. You'll still have an itchy bite. 

 

...

 

On topic, we went past the honey in the grocery store and I had this conversation with my 4 year old:

 

E- I really like honey, mom. Can we get some?

Me-  I don't want to buy honey, it makes me sad for the bees. They have to steal the honey from them and sometimes they crush their homes. It's not a nice thing to do to bees.

E- I love bees. I don't like honey any more.

11-10-2012 10:04 PM
SiberianTigress
Quote:
Originally Posted by vMaryv View Post

I feel that you are countering with straw man attacks. Whether that is just to be combative, defensive, or just to keep the debate going, I feel that my efforts are better spent elsewhere.

 

For the record though, I instinctively slap mosquitoes if they are in the process of biting me. But otherwise I use repellent to kinda "hide" from them so I don't get bit! Swatting them while they are kinda buzzing around it the worst thing to do if you don't want to be bit! You just alert them to exactly where you are!

 

I hope you really are in it for ethical and compassionate reasons. I became more compassionate as I opened my mind to the possibility of perspectives very unlike my own. I'm sending you loving thoughts :-)

 

ok 2 things,1. you shouldnt try to think of attacking the thing that is harming you, you should think of pushing it away. for example, you would think 'Eeek! Slap!' wheras i think 'Eeek! Shove!'. 2. the worst thing do do isnt to swat them, it is to BREATHE. some insects track prey by sensing the carbon dioxide in their breath. just hold your breath, and move away. also, slapping them would make them rather dizzy, and they wouldnt be able to 'bite' for a few minutes

 

 

pride.gif  Edit: Haha lol no i just meant brush it off gently i tink i said shove because i was thinking about anything trying to hurt you and most of the time it will be big enough to push. pride.gif

10-21-2012 03:42 AM
lucky_charm I once read that 12 bees will work their entire lives to make the equivalent of just one teaspoon of honey. I wouldn't purposefully kill any insect unless it was harming or threatening me, but bees are in a special category to me because they have a hive intelligence that bee keepers have commented on and that we don't fully understand- the hive seem to constantly communicate together and work as a team, they are also exceptionally hard workers and slave their lives away to feed their young, it seems awful that we take the life's work of a bee for one cookie, one cereal bar or one cup of tea.
10-20-2012 07:37 AM
1975Veg
Quote:
Originally Posted by holothuroidea View Post

 

The accidental injury and death of creatures in their natural environment when we are obtaining what we need to live, is much much different than the purposeful enslavement and exploitation of insects.


I understand your point. Killing insects with poisons is not accidental however. Even organic farms have to control insects somehow. Then there is the issue of farmers using bonemeal or bloodmeal to fertilize their crops. It is impossible to live in this world without killing. That said, avoidance of honey is noble. I do not criticize it.

10-20-2012 06:51 AM
holothuroidea
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1975Veg View Post

Of course we have to draw the line somewhere. Even when we eat fruits and vegetables, so many insects are killed in order to grow them and bring them to market.
 

 

The accidental injury and death of creatures in their natural environment when we are obtaining what we need to live, is much much different than the purposeful enslavement and exploitation of insects.

10-19-2012 09:39 PM
1975Veg

Of course we have to draw the line somewhere. Even when we eat fruits and vegetables, so many insects are killed in order to grow them and bring them to market.
 

10-19-2012 02:52 PM
holothuroidea

You have to do some pretty mean things to bees to get honey and beeswax.

 

The only time I'd use honey/beeswax is if I were in a position to get it myself from wild bees, and I think if I were considering doing that I'd be pretty desperate, as it is much easier and more kind to pick berries.

10-19-2012 01:57 PM
pondupon

.

08-07-2012 01:34 PM
dramaqueen753

I don't think honey or beeswax are vegan, though someone who says they're vegan and eats honey is not evil in my books. I can imagine that it's easier to do so than try to explain this to every waiter or whomever. It's kind of how I feel about pescetarians. I know they are not vegetarians, and, most of the time, they do too. But as long as they're not ordering fish at the time, it's easier to just tell a waiter they're vegetarian, since not many people know what a pescetarian is. It's becoming more well known slowly, so that can hopefully stop.

 

The problem I have is labeling. If people think it's accepted that honey is vegan, or that fish is vegetarian, then people will label things vegan or vegetarian when they include this. I went into some organic vegan bakery and nearly all of their products contained honey. Boy, was I livid. It was my birthday and I was so excited for some goodies! It was all raw, I believe, and only the lemon cheesecake was honeyless and some strange truffles. No, your stuff is not vegan. Sure, it's pretty darn close, but it's not and I can't help but feel that you use a huge amount of honey that is unnecessary. Agh.

08-06-2012 02:31 PM
silva

I also find stevia in powdered form tastes artificial!

I got a plant, and the fresh leaves are amazing! They're super sweet, and do taste like sugar. Even those, when dried, taste funny.

08-06-2012 08:20 AM
disneyfav4ever

I don't really like Stevia either. I've ended up using it only in drinks, when I make my own lemonade or whatever, where I don't really notice the aftertaste. 

08-06-2012 08:18 AM
disneyfav4ever

I don't get why there is a debate. It seems pretty simple to me. Honey comes from bees, bees are animals, so honey isn't vegan. That being said, if I accidentally consume something with honey, I don't worry about it, and it seems to be added to so many things that it's harder to avoid then dairy and eggs 100%. But I don't make a point of buying honey products. Same with beeswax. I've bought "cruelty-free" beauty products before, not thinking to check what's in them since they're marked cruelty-free, but I know there was something with beeswax in it once.

08-06-2012 07:33 AM
ElaineV Cool! Thanks smiley.gif
08-06-2012 07:07 AM
Jennifer C
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElaineV View Post

 

Therefor I don't really care if someone is vegan vs. beegan. Too often, the "debate" about honey becomes a side-issue that makes it easy for omnis to discount veganism. I wrote a bit about that here: http://www.vegansoapbox.com/why-vegans-avoid-honey/

 

I found your honey post on a Google search a few days ago and really, really liked it. I thought it was the best I'd seen on this debate and I agreed with the whole thing. It was such a rational approach. I like that it addressed the bigger issues. 

08-05-2012 06:29 PM
Patty J
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirate Huntress View Post

Never seen that around, but it sounds amazing.

 


 

700

This is the granular sugar I bought. I found it at my local whole food market but you can get it at Amazon.

 

1000

This is a liquid form I found on Amazon. My local store also carries it, but I'm not sure what brand.

 

Initially I was worried that it would have the same environmental impact as the palms grown for palm oil - but that doesn't seem to be the case. The only negative I've heard of is that trees tapped for sugar don't produce nuts - with the growing demand for coconut products, this might present a problem in the future. Everything else I've heard is positive. Coconut trees are long lived (70-100 yrs +), sequester Co2, promote bio-diverse farming (shade lovers like coffee and cacao grow well under the canopy. Cacao production increases under coconut trees.) - Ghandi even considered it a way out of poverty for India. I've been looking for negatives, but I keep finding positives.

08-05-2012 05:38 PM
Pirate Huntress
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patty J View Post

 


I can't stand the aftertaste!

I want to try the liquid form of coconut blossom sugar. I love the taste of the granular form and I think the liquid could easily replace honey, agave or maple syrup. Supposedly it's safe for diabetics, too. I'll need a little more evidence to be completely convinced, but I love the idea of a raw, whole food that I can use to make sweets for my diabetic mother.

Never seen that around, but it sounds amazing.

08-05-2012 05:36 PM
jessickah

I also hate stevia which is a ***** because it isn't cheap and I bought the organic kindbigcry.gif

I loved splenda though..which is chemicals and I think stevia taste like chemicals, but it isnt.

odd, very odd indeed.

08-05-2012 05:33 PM
Patty J
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirate Huntress View Post


And please don't tell me I'm the only one who does not like Stevia lol.

 


I can't stand the aftertaste!

I want to try the liquid form of coconut blossom sugar. I love the taste of the granular form and I think the liquid could easily replace honey, agave or maple syrup. Supposedly it's safe for diabetics, too. I'll need a little more evidence to be completely convinced, but I love the idea of a raw, whole food that I can use to make sweets for my diabetic mother.

08-05-2012 05:25 PM
feralheart I don't like stevia either. It tastes really similar to aspartame to me to be honest. I mean at least it's not creepy like aspartame but it tastes gross to me.
08-05-2012 05:18 PM
Pirate Huntress

Honey can sometimes be an issue because it's in so many products that would otherwise be vegan if honey weren't added. Like Trader Joe's cheeseless pizza, Amy's vegetarian meatloaf dinner, lots of cereal and granola, Lush products (although they always say they take good care of their bees o.o;;)
And please don't tell me I'm the only one who does not like Stevia lol. Agave is fine, but I'd rather have a mixture of agave and maple syrup.

08-05-2012 10:41 AM
ElaineV

I don't eat honey or use other bee products. I refer to vegans who use bee products as "beegans." I don't feel that the bee issues (or any insect issues) are nearly as important as the issues related to mammals, birds, fishes... as I stated in the other thread about animal testing and eggs:

 

Millions more chickens SUFFER TO DEATH in the food industry than ALL other animals killed for fur, experimentation, or in "shelters" COMBINED. That's just counting chickens and only those who die before even making it to slaughter. Source: http://www.countinganimals.com/is-vegan-outreach-right-about-how-many-animals-suffer-to-death/
Imagine the scope of the problem when you add in the other species in the food industry and when you start counting the animals who are slaughtered. The level of suffering and death in animal "agriculture" is ENORMOUS! No other form of animal cruelty even remotely compares. None.

 

Therefor I don't really care if someone is vegan vs. beegan. Too often, the "debate" about honey becomes a side-issue that makes it easy for omnis to discount veganism. I wrote a bit about that here: http://www.vegansoapbox.com/why-vegans-avoid-honey/

 

But I will admit that it does bother me when someone - who should know better - makes something with honey and labels that food "vegan." That annoys me.

08-05-2012 05:23 AM
draconian

I choose not to use those (Bee) products. YMMV.

08-03-2012 02:25 PM
penny79
Quote:
Originally Posted by LedBoots View Post

This is no longer a vegan board at all, I guess.


right.  lol  smh

08-03-2012 02:13 PM
LedBoots This is no longer a vegan board at all, I guess.
08-03-2012 10:57 AM
Jennifer C
Quote:
Originally Posted by penny79 View Post

I'm not agreeing that all vegans eat processed foods you speak of, but are you suggesting that those deaths involved in, say, peanut butter are intentional, such as taking a bee's honey?

 

Not everything on the FDA's Defect Levels Handbook list is processed. Veggies, spices and such are included too. They monitor all food quality, along with the USDA and a handful of labeling organization. 

 

I guess it depends on what intentional means in your own mind. Major food organizations, like the USDA and FDA allows some super whack stuff in food, intentionally because they say it can't be avoided. However, these organizations also call pink slime meat at schools, zero chemical testing in cosmetics and other crazy stuff "unavoidable" in order to avoid excessive costs - so who knows IF they could manage the food system better if they wanted to. I have a feeling they could. If you can try to change a system, but don't, to me, you're intentionally allowing the issue to continue. My guess is that you can't entirely clean up the food system, but you can always intentionally aim to make it better. 

 

The bee/honey issue seems much more intentional because it's very public, and I do think that yes, it's intentional. When major food organizations allow shady food policy to continue, it's not as public as the honey debate, therefore, I think easier for people to think it's unintentional, when really, maybe it could be fixed.

 

Personally, I think the FDA is very intentional in what they do (a minimum) in order to keep costs low. But that's just me. Maybe they're right and everything they do is unavoidable. I do think it's impossible to avoid animal /insect harm in this country if you eat food, so in that respect avoiding what you can easily avoid (honey, meat, eggs, etc) is a good plan. 

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