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  Topic Review (Newest First)
05-02-2013 01:33 PM
Pirate Huntress

I don't believe it's unethical, but I don't do it myself

04-29-2013 06:19 PM
Vegman

i dont think it is ethical but i do think it can be done humanely, i have 2 bathtub worm farms that have been up and running for 3 years now, i have 3 more that i set up 18 months ago and i have 2 that will be finished within the month.

 

so in all i have 7 bathtub worm farms so fare, also each farm is larger than the average store bought set up.

03-26-2013 06:50 PM
nothingtosee

Yes, but I do think it's yucky.

06-01-2010 09:54 PM
Joan Kennedy
Quote:
Originally Posted by KrisMTL View Post

I have some friends that compost, you should see the ridiculous tools they use, and how thoughtless they are about the worms they take advantage of.



Kris, are your friends using a compost heap that earthworms have crawled into, or a vermiculture bin that's been intentionally stocked with red wrigglers? I think these deadly tools we're hearing about might be things that are used in the heaps. The worms are incidental to composting heaps and not, I think, what OP started the thread to ask about. Taking care not to harm naturally invading earthworms (worms at liberty to come and go!), would be a separate question if that is what they are. Are they indoors or outdoors?
06-01-2010 08:15 PM
KrisMTL
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovely_rita View Post

yikes! I don't even know what this IS. I must be composting differently than you, because I don't even know what an earth mixer shovel thingy is (not being sarcastic here or mocking you, just to clarify). I don't mix my compost. I've never composted without worms before (I've never composted before, period) so I don't know if there is a difference in how you do it.

I have some friends that compost, you should see the ridiculous tools they use, and how thoughtless they are about the worms they take advantage of.
06-01-2010 10:09 AM
SomebodyElse There are dozens of different ways to compost. It's very interesting, if you are into that sort of thing.
06-01-2010 06:06 AM
GoGoGoddess
Quote:
yikes! I don't even know what this IS. I must be composting differently than you, because I don't even know what an earth mixer shovel thingy is (not being sarcastic here or mocking you, just to clarify). I don't mix my compost. I've never composted without worms before (I've never composted before, period) so I don't know if there is a difference in how you do it.



I was thinking the same thing!
06-01-2010 05:21 AM
Sevenseas
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovely_rita View Post

Again, I feel I am going slightly off-topic. But I wouldn't assume that someone that is ok with vermiculture is necessarily "just" interested in animal welfare over animal rights in general. Maybe I'm being specieist; it's something to think about.

Yeah I was going to comment on that issue. There are various different interpretations of 'animal rights' (some of them quite ridiculous, when used by people who don't know any veg*ns or animal advocates).



I think that central to most AR views is the idea that fundamental interests, such as in life and avoiding suffering, cannot be sacrificed for human preferences (or for any general benefit). Such questions as whether to eat the eggs from rescued hens are more peripheral and a moral stance on them usually goes beyond a focus on mere interests and well-being, and into the status of animals in our culture. Or alternatively, it depends on what kind of interests of animals one thinks should be protected by rights. If, as suggested earlier, one such interest is self-determination, then that would probably make using worms unethical even under the interpretation of AR that focuses on interests.
05-31-2010 07:23 PM
lovely_rita Oh, but I do want to say - in terms of animal welfarists and animal rights - I'm definitely in the AR camp, believe it or not. I just finished reading the book "Eating Animals" and it talks a lot about animal welfarists - two examples in the book are: a vegetarian who runs a cattle ranch with her husband and a vegan who designs slaughterhouses! I'm not even kidding. I do not understand this line of thinking at all. I don't like the gray areas of "well, this is sometimes ok when.." and "well, as long as this, then this.." etc. I'm a very black/white thinker with most things, and I don't understand the "good life and an easy death" philosophy that people talked about so much in the book.



Again, I feel I am going slightly off-topic. But I wouldn't assume that someone that is ok with vermiculture is necessarily "just" interested in animal welfare over animal rights in general. Maybe I'm being specieist; it's something to think about.
05-31-2010 07:18 PM
lovely_rita
Quote:
and then be unsympathetic by slashing them in half with my little earth mixer shovel thingy while mixing up my compost.



yikes! I don't even know what this IS. I must be composting differently than you, because I don't even know what an earth mixer shovel thingy is (not being sarcastic here or mocking you, just to clarify). I don't mix my compost. I've never composted without worms before (I've never composted before, period) so I don't know if there is a difference in how you do it.



I just wanted to pop in and let you all know that I am still reading the thread, though I haven't responded to the more recent posts. To be honest, I'm having a rare emotionally turbulent day and while I appreciate a good discussion and I really do like hearing other people's opinions, I don't have the emotional energy to discuss it tonight. But I didn't want you guys to think I was getting scared and bowing out of the conversation.



One of the things I like about these boards is that it definitely makes you think, sometimes about things that never even occured to you before. For example, I have some caged animals at my house (a hamster and two rats) and while I love them dearly and am so glad to have them in my life, I don't think I will be getting any more caged pets after these ones pass away. I was aware of the pet shop issues, I was aware of breeding issues, was aware of things like that, but I guess I always thought "Hey, as long as I love them and care for them, all is good!" And I don't feel GUILTY for having these 3 particular pets and I will continue to love them and care for them until they die, but because of this forum, I have been challenged to question some long-held beliefs about different things, and I appreciate that.



Sorry to get kind of off-topic. I just want people to know that I don't come on here with the attitude of "This is what I think, so I must be right and no one else has any valid arguments in my mind!" EVERYTHING that I read on here gets absorbed and processed and I appreciate people sharing themselves and their opinions, regardless of whether we agree or not.



That's all. GOOD NIGHT! (This day is OVER, thank goodness.)
05-31-2010 01:01 PM
KrisMTL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchvegan View Post

The way I see it, here are a lot of vegans (like myself) who are animal rights advocates and then there are vegans who are animal welfarist. It seems to me, that vegans who are animal welfarists will have no problems with composting with worms "as long as they are treated well" whereas aniaml rights vegans will always view composting with worms (where the worm are bought and kept in a box in the house) as exploitation. Being an animal rights advocate, I view composting with worms as exploitation as the worms have been bred for a human purpose and are confined in an unnatural environment to serve human interests.



I love you.
05-31-2010 01:00 PM
KrisMTL I don't think composting with worms is ethical. I don't take advantage of bees for their honey. I don't kill spiders in my house on sight, I set them outside. I'm not going to take advantage of worms to help my compost, and then be unsympathetic by slashing them in half with my little earth mixer shovel thingy while mixing up my compost. Yes, they can heal, but no thanks, I'll pass.



I don't presently compost, but when I move in a month's time I will, and I will not be using worms.
05-31-2010 12:32 PM
HNV
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchvegan View Post

The way I see it, here are a lot of vegans (like myself) who are animal rights advocates and then there are vegans who are animal welfarist. It seems to me, that vegans who are animal welfarists will have no problems with composting with worms "as long as they are treated well" whereas aniaml rights vegans will always view composting with worms (where the worm are bought and kept in a box in the house) as exploitation. Being an animal rights advocate, I view composting with worms as exploitation as the worms have been bred for a human purpose and are confined in an unnatural environment to serve human interests.





+1
05-31-2010 12:26 PM
Calou The way I see it, here are a lot of vegans (like myself) who are animal rights advocates and then there are vegans who are animal welfarist. It seems to me, that vegans who are animal welfarists will have no problems with composting with worms "as long as they are treated well" whereas aniaml rights vegans will always view composting with worms (where the worm are bought and kept in a box in the house) as exploitation. Being an animal rights advocate, I view composting with worms as exploitation as the worms have been bred for a human purpose and are confined in an unnatural environment to serve human interests.
05-31-2010 11:30 AM
nogardsram
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFalafel View Post

I live in a box. My house is very box shaped, actually. Except for the pointy roof. The worms I had lived in a round wormery that had three separate floors or stages. They probably had more scaled square footage than I do. I honestly don't know anything about the breed of worms housed.



Do your worms have a day job too? Do they go on vacations and trips around the country? Do they drive their little worm cars or just take the worm subway into town when they need new clothes?



This is silly. I don't understand how people relate confining another creature to humans living in a house. I hear and read the same thing about zoos. It sounds like justification or rationalization rather than a conclusion based on actual reasoning.
05-31-2010 11:26 AM
nogardsram
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFalafel View Post

We had the wormery for several years. When I gave it away the worms were still in there munching away and the new owners are now taking care of them. We did not 'manage' the worms breeding we just kept putting the appropriate materials in which they consumed. We'd then harvest the compost at regular intervals after going through the special procedure to separate the worms from the compost to be harvested. I never saw any dead worms, we never had to buy any new worms either.



I've never seen Antartica, nor have I bought a ticket to travel there. Does that mean that it must not exist?



I honestly don't understand why that would be proof of anything, that you never saw a dead worm. What is the water content of a worm? Considering how fast vegetable matter breaks down in wormeries, how fast do you think a gooey mass of a dead worm will break down? I'd think in less than a day it would no longer be recognizable. How many juveniles did you see? Considering that you had one, I assume you read up on the lifespan of worms and could recognize an adult from a juvenile? If you ever saw a juvenile after the initial population stabilization, it would stand to reason that at least some worms have to be dying (else there would be no stabilization). What was the ratio of juvenile to adult worms in your wormery? How about worm cocoons, did you ever see those? What did you do with the worms after you decided you were 'done' with them?



--

So I just want to clarify. This notion of a stabilization that you and lovely_rita have brought up. Further the idea which has been brought up about worm boxes being pretty great places for worms to live.



The notion of population stabilization basically means that the birth rate is about the same as the death rate. There could be a very high birth rate, which would require a correspondingly high death rate, or a very low birth rate, corresponding to a very low death rate.



I am wondering if you and lovely_rita (and other who push this kind of idea) believe that as soon as there is some kind of quantity of worms (based on available resources) then the worms stop breeding so that only as the 'happy' worms die of a ripe old age and a life of vigorous eating and pooping, then they breed only to replace those dead ones. This is some kind of fantasy fairy tale.



Yes, the birth rate does go down as resources are consumed (as does with all life), I submit that it is in fact higher than the fairy tale already mentioned. Of course it's not at the other extreme, where the birth rate is as high as it was initially when the first few worms were placed in your wormery. It's somewhere in between, that in between will depend on how aggressive the worms are (which the red wriggler happens to be), how much their birth rate does fall, etc.



Since it is in fact higher than the fairy tale, this means there is stress and competition among the worms in the wormery. I suspect very few will live to that ripe old worm age, so I suspect that the majority of death will be due to not being able to compete with the younger and more aggressive worms. Basically in your artificial environment of no predators, hopefully no disease, climate controlled (if inside, I realize you did state yours was outside), the primary driving force for population control will be each other and food supply. So in effect you're starving the older and weaker ones. I wouldn't be surprised that the lifespan is much less what it would be in the wild due to the setup of the system.



After all you only need them to reach adulthood (which I believe is less than a year) and breed. From your eyes, considering the bodies break down so fast, you only see strong, vigorous, worms, just the kind that will be surviving at any given time.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFalafel View Post

Well the wormery we had wasn't secure or locked. It was also kept outside in the garden. It also had a hole in the bottom for drainage so in theory the worms could have escaped if they wanted to. But I guess they preferred the warmth and protection from predators of the wormery and being fed food rather than fending for themselves in the wild. Much like how a housecat lives.



Do you concern yourself or consider the introduction of non-native species? This is a by-product of a global vermiculture where people prefer red wrigglers.
05-31-2010 09:26 AM
MrFalafel
Quote:
Originally Posted by luvourmother View Post

More avoidance, nice! Is someone using you to eliminate waste and create poop for their own purposes? is your food and resources up to another to provide?



what if someone discovered that vegetarian poop is an excellent source of energy, and people bought, trade and sold vegetarians to keep for their poop, and we were kept in boxes and used to make poop. would u want to live as a vegetarian poop slave?

You are avoiding the simple fact that the worms could have left the wormery if they wanted to. They were not slaves. In fact, they had more freedom than a cat living in an apartment.
05-31-2010 09:22 AM
luvourmother
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFalafel View Post

I live in a box. My house is very box shaped, actually. Except for the pointy roof. The worms I had lived in a round wormery that had three separate floors or stages. They probably had more scaled square footage than I do. I honestly don't know anything about the breed of worms housed.



More avoidance, nice! Is someone using you to eliminate waste and create poop for their own purposes? is your food and resources up to another to provide?



what if someone discovered that vegetarian poop is an excellent source of energy, and people bought, trade and sold vegetarians to keep for their poop, and we were kept in boxes and used to make poop. would u want to live as a vegetarian poop slave?
05-31-2010 09:16 AM
MrFalafel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

If you didn't acquire that parakeet from a shelter or a place of abuse, then I think it's wrong that you "have" the parakeet, as you probably got the animal from a pet shop or the wild or something.



I see what you are saying. The worms were purchased from worm breeding facility. One could compare that to a chicken breeding or other animal breeding facility. But the difference is worms are not killed like chickens are. Nor are they selectively bred like dog and cat breeders to. They also do not require special subsistence (ie animal food) like dogs and cats do. They are grown and live out their full life cycle doing what they do naturally.
05-31-2010 09:01 AM
Sevenseas
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFalafel View Post

Now lets say I had a parakeet that I let loose into my backyard. And for some reason it decided to not fly away but to remain in my backyard feeding on the bird feeder. Is this exploitation or abuse?

If you didn't acquire that parakeet from a shelter or a place of abuse, then I think it's wrong that you "have" the parakeet, as you probably got the animal from a pet shop or the wild or something.
05-31-2010 08:59 AM
MrFalafel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

But to me, having a (rescued) cat is okay because someone needs to care for the neglected cats waiting at shelters. I do not think the social practice of having companion animals is a good one. This same kind of reasoning cannot be applied to worms, which are like wild animals in this respect.



How about this: I have a backyard that is enclosed except for the top. I also have a bird feeder in the backyard. Wild birds come and go and use the bird feeder. When the bird feeder gets low, I add more birdseed. When I had the wormery, we just put one package of worms into the wormery and began feeding them. The worms could have escaped through the drainage pump or smuggled themselves out along with the compost used in the garden but they didn't. They chose to stay. Now lets say I had a parakeet that I let loose into my backyard. And for some reason it decided to not fly away but to remain in my backyard feeding on the bird feeder. Is this exploitation or abuse?
05-31-2010 08:55 AM
MrFalafel
Quote:
Originally Posted by luvourmother View Post

oh, were your worms the result of centuries of breeding and human intervention?

nice avoidance of the question concerning if you would like to be kept in a box



I live in a box. My house is very box shaped, actually. Except for the pointy roof. The worms I had lived in a round wormery that had three separate floors or stages. They probably had more scaled square footage than I do. I honestly don't know anything about the breed of worms housed.
05-31-2010 08:45 AM
Sevenseas
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFalafel View Post


To answer your post, I'm talking about cats and dogs and worms, not wild animals. I would think that keeping an elephant in an apartment would be cruel but a cat in that same apartment or some worms in a wormery would be OK.

But to me, having a (rescued) cat is okay because someone needs to care for the neglected cats waiting at shelters. I do not think the social practice of having companion animals is a good one. This same kind of reasoning cannot be applied to worms, which are like wild animals in this respect.
05-31-2010 08:45 AM
luvourmother
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFalafel View Post

Well the wormery we had wasn't secure or locked. It was also kept outside in the garden. It also had a hole in the bottom for drainage so in theory the worms could have escaped if they wanted to. But I guess they preferred the warmth and protection from predators of the wormery and being fed food rather than fending for themselves in the wild. Much like how a housecat lives.



oh, were your worms the result of centuries of breeding and human intervention?

nice avoidance of the question concerning if you would like to be kept in a box
05-31-2010 08:41 AM
MrFalafel
Quote:



I guess its too late to ask a mod to merge these two threads?



To answer your post, I'm talking about cats and dogs and worms, not wild animals. I would think that keeping an elephant in an apartment would be cruel but a cat in that same apartment or some worms in a wormery would be OK.
05-31-2010 08:38 AM
Sevenseas
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFalafel View Post

If you have a dog or cat or any other pet, a wormery is really just a different kind of companion animal.

https://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...=1#post2701395
05-31-2010 08:34 AM
MrFalafel
Quote:
Originally Posted by luvourmother View Post

i don't know how you came to that assumption? if the cat cannot defend itself or the outside presents dangers to the animals health staying inside is a better solution.



im against keeping un-altered cats, and not providing them with proper flea control etc.



very much unlike keeping worms in a box inside of a house...



Well the wormery we had wasn't secure or locked. It was also kept outside in the garden. It also had a hole in the bottom for drainage so in theory the worms could have escaped if they wanted to. But I guess they preferred the warmth and protection from predators of the wormery and being fed food rather than fending for themselves in the wild. Much like how a housecat lives.
05-31-2010 08:16 AM
luvourmother
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFalafel View Post

Sounds like you are against someone owning a pet cat that is not allowed out of the house.



i don't know how you came to that assumption? if the cat cannot defend itself or the outside presents dangers to the animals health staying inside is a better solution.



im against keeping un-altered cats, and not providing them with proper flea control etc.



very much unlike keeping worms in a box inside of a house...
05-31-2010 08:08 AM
MrFalafel
Quote:
Originally Posted by luvourmother View Post

Big difference between dog and cat companion animals and worms as companion animals, domestication. Worms will do just fine (if not better) on their own, dogs and cats will not....



Also like similar to the point nog. made, "do as to others as you would have them do unto you". Would you want to be kept in a box, be used and managed by another being? Sounds like prison huh?



Sounds like you are against someone owning a pet cat that is not allowed out of the house.
05-31-2010 08:04 AM
luvourmother
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFalafel View Post




I will stick to my analogy that having worms is the same as keeping a cat in a house or apartment.



Big difference between dog and cat companion animals and worms as companion animals, domestication. Worms will do just fine (if not better) on their own, dogs and cats will not....



Also like similar to the point nog. made, "do as to others as you would have them do unto you". Would you want to be kept in a box, be used and managed by another being? Sounds like prison huh?
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