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  Topic Review (Newest First)
09-24-2008 01:55 AM
IamJen Just a note: I deleted the crazy spammer lady's post earlier in this thread, and took out the posts that were responding to it as well.
09-23-2008 03:48 PM
jeneticallymodified
Quote:
Their 'leader', Iain Scott, considers himself a bit of a guru with special powers and (last I heard) is 'married' to at least two women who volunteer for the charity (Rebecca Lincoln Scott and Sarah Scott, who have both taken his name). His overseas volunteers work very long hours, unpaid, with no days off. All his 'volunteers' are expected to participate in very intensive (I would say invasive) workshop-style meetings.



i knew i smelled weirdness when i read that site, and that it wasn't coming from me.
09-23-2008 08:50 AM
GhostUser Milk production obviously involves cows first giving birth to calves. These babies are separated from their mothers and this can cause some degree of short-term distress. Out of the male calves, most will be “surplus to requirement” for the dairy industry and end up as part of the meat supply. Similarly, free-range egg production involves the need for some fertile eggs to be laid; again, the majority of the male chicks will be “surplus to requirement” and they are immediately killed. A vegan believes that a vegetarian who eats dairy products and/or free-range eggs is taking part in this animal cruelty. But is this necessarily true?



Erm yes it is true. That site is weird, I have never read any veggie forum be so dismissive of veganism especially for ethical/ cruelty reasons.



I just noticed it is an English site! I have never heard of it before.
09-23-2008 08:37 AM
Sevenseas
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewVegGirl View Post


If you want to check it out for yourself, you could read Iain Scott's book, Human Potential - wherein he talks about an extraterrestrial experience he believes he has had,

Something wrong with that? I have an extraterrestrial experience whenever I go to my garage to talk to Zegryb203.
09-23-2008 06:56 AM
*AHIMSA*
09-23-2008 06:10 AM
NewVegGirl Hi all



I'm new here but just wanted to chip in. I know the people behind that website and they have a very strong agenda aside from the vegetarianism.

Their 'leader', Iain Scott, considers himself a bit of a guru with special powers and (last I heard) is 'married' to at least two women who volunteer for the charity (Rebecca Lincoln Scott and Sarah Scott, who have both taken his name). His overseas volunteers work very long hours, unpaid, with no days off. All his 'volunteers' are expected to participate in very intensive (I would say invasive) workshop-style meetings.



If you want to check it out for yourself, you could read Iain Scott's book, Human Potential - wherein he talks about an extraterrestrial experience he believes he has had, which has made him enlightened, etc:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Human-Potent.../dp/1899131019



Or feel free to ask me personally if you have any questions.



Cheers

Newbie
08-19-2008 05:55 AM
avi I am so glad that helped you! I know eating out is SUPER tough when you are vegan. Ive had dining experiences that were super awkward where I just ordered a soda because I needed some sort of caloric intake haha. What usually works is ask for the house salad and then their list of dressing, or sneak in your own I do that to be absolutely sure.



rocky



Louisiana Drug Treatment
08-16-2008 12:54 PM
VeganAimee [QUOTE=Tom]



Im mostly concerned that, since it's obviously a pro-vegetarian site, it might have enough credibility to persuade people not to worry that much about animal treatment in the egg and dairy industries. Its tempting to discount evidence that ones lifestyle should change, if it looks like that change will be hard.



QUOTE]





That was my biggest concern about the site as well.

I grew up vegetarian and was vegetarian for 26 years.

I had no idea why I was vegetarian - I was just that way

because I grew up that way. Eating meat seemed gross, but dairy

was delicious. I didn't even realize until 2 months ago what animals were

going through etc... I immediately cut out all dairy/honey and am working to

become a full vegan in my everyday life.

If I had read that site my ignorance of animal suffering would have

continued on and I would still be a omelet loving vegetarian.

JMO of course, but I had no love for that leafy site.
08-16-2008 12:03 PM
Mr. Sun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

My dad, who as you know is a nuclear physicist, feels the same way about it.



*smacks Irizary in the back of the head*



Smart ass.
08-16-2008 06:16 AM
icreep heather
Quote:
Originally Posted by *AHIMSA* View Post

"Vegans all over her".......... VEGAN ORGY!!!







*gasp*



Doesn't sound like a bad time.



I don't see what the fuss is about!



:P



I kid..
08-16-2008 06:13 AM
Irizary
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiz View Post

Hrmm... just checked out the site. Even ignoring the who "anti-vegan" thing it's not exactly packed with information, is it? The "what can I eat" page pretty much only says "anything that isn't meat!". Duh? How about food groups, nutrition, recipes... you know, helpful stuff?



My dad, who as you know is a nuclear physicist, feels the same way about it.
08-16-2008 05:21 AM
Kiz Hrmm... just checked out the site. Even ignoring the who "anti-vegan" thing it's not exactly packed with information, is it? The "what can I eat" page pretty much only says "anything that isn't meat!". Duh? How about food groups, nutrition, recipes... you know, helpful stuff?
08-16-2008 04:55 AM
*AHIMSA* "Vegans all over her".......... VEGAN ORGY!!!
08-16-2008 03:57 AM
IamJen Wait, is it September already?
08-15-2008 03:10 PM
Tom ^^^Oh, okay. Thanks!
08-15-2008 03:01 PM
Sevenseas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom View Post

I read the first thread about humane dairy, where the thread initiator mentioned the 'lettuce' site. I went to that site but couldnt find any message board, so didnt see the thread where she said the vegans were all over her.

The thread initiator meant that first thread.. I.e. vegans were all over her on VB when she mentioned the lettuceleaf site.
08-15-2008 02:59 PM
Tom I read the first thread about humane dairy, where the thread initiator mentioned the 'lettuce' site. I went to that site but couldnt find any message board, so didnt see the thread where she said the vegans were all over her.



I found the 'lettuce' site rather disturbing. It started out pro-animal, and even the page discussing veganism began by acknowledging that there might be problems with how dairy animals are treated. Then there was this abrupt change of tone and a lot of noise about how cows dont really get that bent-out-of-shape when their calves are taken from them, etc... Their talk about surplus animals (cows or chicks who arent needed by dairy or egg producers) being eaten by zoo animals reminded me, unpleasantly, of statements Ive made about leather or about meat which is going to be thrown out.



Im mostly concerned that, since it's obviously a pro-vegetarian site, it might have enough credibility to persuade people not to worry that much about animal treatment in the egg and dairy industries. Its tempting to discount evidence that ones lifestyle should change, if it looks like that change will be hard.













(Hey... my 2000TH POST on VB!!!)



(To myself, sotto voce): Ummm... Tom... arent you supposed to be taking a break from the net?...
08-15-2008 02:20 PM
DNK Oh, absolutely, but I like to be aware of the situation, and consider stats to be a useful means of doing so, as flawed as they may be.
08-15-2008 02:14 PM
AutomaticMan Would it be that radical to suggest that statistics don't matter because even one nonhuman animal suffering for human pleasure is totally unacceptable?

Yes, I agree statistics can be a useful tool to capture people's interest, but they should not form the basis of our argument against animal exploitation.



I'm not referring to anybody here in particular, but I've encountered far too many animal activists attempting to back up their arguments against the consumption of animal products by reciting statistics, instead of explaining the rational theory behind veganism.
08-15-2008 02:05 PM
Mr. Sun
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNK View Post

My point.



...





Now, one can still say that this happens in some cases obviously, but then it isn't so much a critique on the industry as a whole as it is on specific operations. I am skimming a more stat-oriented book right now that claims that the operations under McDonalds and Wendy's, for example, have drastically improved their practices, moving to a 100% desensitizing rate before the cows reach the bleeding station, and a 95%+ rate of desensitization on the first attempt. In this instance, claiming that many of the cows are being horrifically tortured in their last moments isn't valid.





Ok, I get you. I'm not really interested in those stats because I approach the whole issue from an almost purely dog/pig comparison. That means it wouldn't matter to me if there was a "100% desensitizing rate before the cows reach the bleeding station" or not. When I present veg*nism to people I just point out the basic inconsistency of killing pigs for pleasure when they are opposed to killing dogs for pleasure, whether or not we can kill without causing pain or not.



But, whatever, if this approach works for you then that's good.



Quote:
I don't count, say, dying on the ride to the slaughterhouse dying of slaughter, or dying of a major infection at the farm either. It was word play, nothing more. Agreed that 99.99% of the cows don't make it past 5 or so, regardless of cause.



Ok. Yeah, pretty much all of them die. The dairy industry has blood/suffering/death on its hands.
08-15-2008 01:57 PM
DNK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Sun View Post

Not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring to the cows that die due to the suffering they've endured on the dairy farm or do you really believe that a good number of dairy cows live to be around 25 and then die of old age? I can't tell what you're trying to say.

I don't count, say, dying on the ride to the slaughterhouse dying of slaughter, or dying of a major infection at the farm either. It was word play, nothing more. Agreed that 99.99% of the cows don't make it past 5 or so, regardless of cause.
08-15-2008 01:56 PM
DNK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Sun View Post

I think it would be good to have the hard numbers on the numbers of animals sent to slaughter from the dairy industry (which will include the male offspring) and from the egg industry. That number may make some hard and fast l/o vegetarians think.

My point. A lot of times people will respond to something along the lines of, "that's just anecdotal evidence, it's not like that really, those are just a few bad eggs," [I didn't intend for that to be a pun] and I really can't argue with them because I don't know what it's like generally due to lack of stats, so I generally am hesitant to even make the point. For all I know the industry (as unlikely as it may be) could have cleaned up its act in the past few years. If I can't really substantiate a claim, I can't really make it honestly.



Now, one can still say that this happens in some cases obviously, but then it isn't so much a critique on the industry as a whole as it is on specific operations. I am skimming a more stat-oriented book right now that claims that the operations under McDonalds and Wendy's, for example, have drastically improved their practices, moving to a 100% desensitizing rate before the cows reach the bleeding station, and a 95%+ rate of desensitization on the first attempt. In this instance, claiming that many of the cows are being horrifically tortured in their last moments isn't valid.



Well, not valid if you don't count the ride, the handling, and pretty much their entire lives up to that point. So, of course, the entire animal cruelty argument is not predicated on certain stats like disease rates, cripple rates, death rates pre-slaughter, and slaughterhouse "humane" QC methods, to name a few, but still they're points that could be quite persuading, if properly substantiated.



This hardly invalidates the larger argument, though. And my worry is that the few cases of stats I have are outliers. I think the major food chains, as odd as it may be, are holding themsevles to slightly higher standards of conduct (McD's did audit itself) for PR reasons than, say, a random Tyson plant. But if I don't have stats on said Tyson plants, and only stats on the more "respectable" McD's plants, I can't bring it up really.
08-15-2008 01:52 PM
Mr. Sun
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNK View Post

Well, my point was that a good number of the cows never make it to slaughter. No point in dragging that out anymore.



Not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring to the cows that die due to the suffering they've endured on the dairy farm or do you really believe that a good number of dairy cows live to be around 25 and then die of old age? I can't tell what you're trying to say.





Quote:

I was looking for a book, rather than a link. I have issues with internet sources for the most part. And a statistical book, although thanks for the suggestion. It's just that I have read and seen enough anecdotal stories on this with vague stats, and additional ones aren't going to add to my knowledge significantly at this point, I feel. And it would have to be a fairly recent book at that.



Yeah, the book I referred you to has no stats. It just looks at the dairy industry from an unbiased perspective and explains how all the cows (except that one solitary cow that the owners took pity on for some reason) end up at the slaughterhouse.
08-15-2008 01:27 PM
DNK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Sun View Post

Oh. With the smilie he used I thought he was indicating that this was common knowledge.







Ok. Well, if you are really interested I'd suggest you read that book I mentioned earlier PORTRAIT OF A BURGER AS A YOUNG CALF. But I get a feeling you're too lazy (lol) for that so you want a link that you can just click onto. Well, in case you don't get what you want: I read the book and in that large dairy farm there was only one dairy cow, that was spared in the history of that farm. All the rest went to slaughter.



Well, I have no stats for you. I hope someone does. I like stats too.

Well, my point was that a good number of the cows never make it to slaughter. No point in dragging that out anymore.



I was looking for a book, rather than a link. I have issues with internet sources for the most part. And a statistical book, although thanks for the suggestion. It's just that I have read and seen enough anecdotal stories on this with vague stats, and additional ones aren't going to add to my knowledge significantly at this point, I feel. And it would have to be a fairly recent book at that.
08-15-2008 10:27 AM
Mr. Sun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irizary View Post




There are over 10 BILLION land animals raised and slaughtered in the US alone each and every year. How many end up at Farm Sanctuary and other rescue orgs? Farmers - especially factory farmers - are not keeping these animals as pets. They're not going to pay for feed nor for care that they seldom even get while they're "productive." There might be numbers somewhere, but if I had to guess, I'd say maybe in the hundreds of farm animals out of 10 billion are saved each year in the US.



I think what DNK is looking for is the number of dairy cows and egg laying hens that are killed. I think some people (leafy website) assume there is no real ethical issue here because l/o vegetarians just drink the milk. But they need to realize that essentially every single cow goes to slaughter. And essentially every single egg laying hen goes to slaughter. I think it would be good to have the hard numbers on the numbers of animals sent to slaughter from the dairy industry (which will include the male offspring) and from the egg industry. That number may make some hard and fast l/o vegetarians think.



We should also note that the animals that end up at farm sanctuaries are not there at the decision of the animal exploitation industries -- they get there because of some veg*ns who actually care about animals.
08-15-2008 08:58 AM
AutomaticMan
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinnesshero View Post

most of this isnt about the sites that seven posted but a leafy green site.



I know, I know. I just wanted to say something constructive and move the discussion in a positive direction, instead of voicing my overwhelming negative opinion of the speciesistic untruths and oppressive propaganda on that particular anti-animal website.
08-15-2008 01:49 AM
Irizary
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Sun View Post

Ok. Well, if you are really interested I'd suggest you read that book I mentioned earlier PORTRAIT OF A BURGER AS A YOUNG CALF. But I get a feeling you're too lazy (lol) for that so you want a link that you can just click onto. Well, in case you don't get what you want: I read the book and in that large dairy farm there was only one dairy cow, that was spared in the history of that farm. All the rest went to slaughter.



So "how many are/aren't sent to slaughter?" is the question? ALL with the exception of so few that the number is not meaningful, are sent to slaughter.



There are over 10 BILLION land animals raised and slaughtered in the US alone each and every year. How many end up at Farm Sanctuary and other rescue orgs? Farmers - especially factory farmers - are not keeping these animals as pets. They're not going to pay for feed nor for care that they seldom even get while they're "productive." There might be numbers somewhere, but if I had to guess, I'd say maybe in the hundreds of farm animals out of 10 billion are saved each year in the US.



It's a very odd question, if you think about the numbers (10 billion) and the type of farming (factory) that land animals most typically receive. These animals aren't kept around on farms for fun or companionship or out of charity - they're profit only.



Quote:
That link I gave you said "One day they're productive animals and the next day they're hamburger.'' If they weren't all going to slaughter what do you think they would do with the ones who stick around on the farm? Dairy cattle go to slaughter at around age 8 and they'll live to 25 if they aren't killed. They'd have to feed them for about 17 years for nothing. And the cows had to meet a certain level of milk production to stay alive -- the cost of feed has to be paid for in milk and if the cow doesn't pay she's sent away.



8 years is only on the "better" farms (like the "humane" ones), not how the majority are kept. It's 3 or 4 years on most.



Quote:
In a healthy environment, cows would live in excess of twenty-five years, but on modern dairies, they are slaughtered and made into ground beef after just three or four years.

http://www.farmsanctuary.org/issues/...farming/dairy/
08-15-2008 01:03 AM
Mr. Sun
Quote:
Originally Posted by treyb View Post

i got the impression they were questioning if *each and every* one actually goes



Oh. With the smilie he used I thought he was indicating that this was common knowledge.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DNK View Post

Eight of my ten multiple personalities agree with treyb.



Ok. Well, if you are really interested I'd suggest you read that book I mentioned earlier PORTRAIT OF A BURGER AS A YOUNG CALF. But I get a feeling you're too lazy (lol) for that so you want a link that you can just click onto. Well, in case you don't get what you want: I read the book and in that large dairy farm there was only one dairy cow, that was spared in the history of that farm. All the rest went to slaughter.



That link I gave you said "One day they're productive animals and the next day they're hamburger.'' If they weren't all going to slaughter what do you think they would do with the ones who stick around on the farm? Dairy cattle go to slaughter at around age 8 and they'll live to 25 if they aren't killed. They'd have to feed them for about 17 years for nothing. And the cows had to meet a certain level of milk production to stay alive -- the cost of feed has to be paid for in milk and if the cow doesn't pay she's sent away.





Quote:

And, yes, I would like to see the actual statistics, regardless of what it matters. Curious mind(s) and all, you know.



Well, I have no stats for you. I hope someone does. I like stats too.



Quote:

(I'm a "he" if you're wondering)



Me too.
08-14-2008 11:33 PM
DNK Eight of my ten multiple personalities agree with treyb.



And, yes, I would like to see the actual statistics, regardless of what it matters. Curious mind(s) and all, you know.



(I'm a "he" if you're wondering)
08-14-2008 11:02 PM
LetoTheTyrant i got the impression they were questioning if *each and every* one actually goes
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