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  Topic Review (Newest First)
06-21-2008 07:33 AM
itsveggietime! I just reread my original post in this thread and was amazed to see that I somehow edited out half my post - the half where I actually commented on the video! I'll try to rmemer what I sad... hmmmm... I remember there is a part where excuses appear and when the first one comes up, it doesn't really seem like an excuse is being presented for looking at, but more like a statement of how the presenter feels! If the excuses were to be presented like: Excuse #1: blah, blah -It would be more obvious that you were disappating an excuse. There were some slides that went too fast, and I coudn't read all of them. Try reading them outloud and see if you finish, because if you already know what they say, you don't realize you are finishing them because your brain already knows, so you can't tell others aren't able to read them all before they change. Veg*n may be a better term to use, and it would open up the chance to discuss the difference, and explain vegetarianism as a first step. I know it was covered, health issues, but I'd like to see more info on that. Even people who have no compassion at all, don't care about animals, don't care about the planet, would like to live longer. Showing animal fat statistics relating to heart attacks, strokes, and colon cancer and talking that up a whole lot more, seems a good idea to me. I liked the music.

I recently put together a bunch of scriptures on God's perfect plan for how life on earth was SUPPOSED to go, and the fall from that perfect plan, if you are interested, I can copy and paste it for you.
06-21-2008 07:10 AM
arcane To the OP, it seems like you expected everyone to agree with you? As I'm finding your posts comming off as very defensive, especially to SomebodyElse. I could be readiny you wrong though. While many people don't see animals in the same way vegans do, it doesn't mean you/we should advocate for their continued abuse, torture and death.



While I know people who have given up meat and continue to eat dairy/eggs, I cannot fully support them. I let them know frequently that it's a step in the right direction, but I will never condone it for being okay. Everytime you eat dairy/eggs, use animal by products, etc, you are participating and condoning murder. Do I say that to their face? Sometimes (especially when they realize that I'm not giving them great pats on the back for stuffing their face with cheese). Yes I did break and eat cheese for a few weeks, and everytime I did it, I knew I was condoning murder. I'm sick at myself about it, and it's not a good way to live.



How to I bring up veganism with others? First I talk about the health aspects. Then I bring in the lives of dairy cows and hens. Use of animal products for our benifit (leather, fur, gelitan, things that you wouldn't think contianing animal products) Then finally if we get to this point, the slaughter of animals. Why? As too much information can cause a person to stick their fingers in their ears and turn away. But getting info on how healthy veganism can be (because of that massive myth that vegans are all malnurished) can show some light.
06-21-2008 06:28 AM
lilac wine
Quote:
Originally Posted by PneumaticJawz78 View Post

To be honest, I figure that marginally, there isn't a huge amount you can do whether you're fully veganized or not- and with vegetarianism, you're really getting to the root of the whole movement, the prevention of killing a ridiculously large amount of animals. Dairy and eggs might be at least MORE okay if there weren't so many animals suffering on behalf of them. But that's how the industry works.



Anyway. Ramble. It's all about what you're comfortable with. I was okay with vegetarianism for many years *Shrug*. Just have everything in moderation. And it definitely doesn't hurt to support areas with free-range chickens and well-treated cows (going local as opposed to buying from a chain is as good as you're going to get to knowing just what you're going to be putting on your plate, although I certainly know about the cost!!).



Hey, I agree with your first point that being vegan isn't really so hard- if you can do meatless, you can do vegan. What I disagree with, though, is vegetarianism (ovo lacto) getting to the root of the problem/preventing the killing of many animals. Being an omnivore who consumes plants, animal flesh and animal secretions (milk, eggs) OR being an omnivore who consumes plants and animal secretions (milk, eggs) but not flesh (i.e. being an ovo-lacto "vegetarian"), you still fund the mistreatment and slaughter of animals. Unless you go vegan/herbivore, you're still paying for animals to be killed. And, truly, in the "best" of farming situations ("free-range", local, "humane" and what have you), the things that happen to dairy and egg animals leading up to and including the ways they die are Anything But kind. Anything But something a person who really believes animals deserve compassion would have any business supporting. We're talking reproductive slavery, mutilations, forcibly tearing newborns and their mothers apart, mass killings of infant animals (via methods such as being ground alive, suffocated or stomped for all the male chicks at the hatchery before their sisters arrive- via being mailed in cardboard boxes no less- at these oh-so-"quaint" backyard egg farms (sometimes via feed stores) if they're "lucky" enough), etc, etc. to say nothing of the transport and slaughter process, which has the animals meeting a bloody blade on the kill floors of the same usda inspected slaughterhouses as every other (i.e. the "factory farmed") animal who are slaughtered -once they are no longer financial assets to the farmers, their lives are ended against the animals will. In fact the way the supposedly "best off", most "humanely raised" egg and dairy producing animals and their male counterparts are treated and disposed of would constitute felony animal cruelty in every U.S. state if done to a dog or cat. So, how can we condone it in the case of a chicken or a cow, especially if we have decided to be the ones to speak for and advocate for these beings who have no choice in the matter?



Anyone interested, check out the new website www.humanemyth.org for more info, including many words from people who know the industry quite intimately either from having been family (animal) farmers themselves, or from rescuing the tortured victims of family farmers.



these links are also good resources:

http://www.peacefulprairie.org/freerange1.html

http://www.peacefulprairie.org/outre...nicDairy2.html
06-20-2008 04:06 PM
jenna
Quote:
is living vegetarian enough?



i think it can be enough for some people.

i don't think it's enough for the planet and the animals, though it certainly helps some.
06-20-2008 03:17 PM
Tweety Great video by the way.



I think for mainstream America getting them to "eat a plant based diet" is a good start....but the goal should be for us all to become vegans because overall vegan is better.



I think sending the message that you're not doing enough for the world if you're not vegan isn't necessarily going to win people over. Somehow giving the message that veganism is the ideal to strive for but starting with a "plant based diet" however someone defines that is the start and that everytime someone chooses to omit meat from a meal, it's the right choice.
06-20-2008 04:14 AM
Quinoa
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElArte View Post

I doubt my audience, not just my family, but people in general really care about animals, though. […] but it's hard to get people to care, especially when proposing such an "extreme" solution. […] but people in general just don't really care. […] What drives someone to learn more is the most important part, I think.

Confidence and affirmation that learning is possible and worth the effort seem just as important to me though.



I can relate to where you’re coming from with the resignation between the lines, as it can be very difficult to get through, and the indifference or apathy of some can be just as frustrating as fierce opposition by others.



Nevertheless I think that in order to find good ways to reach and teach people, one actually has to believe in them and in their desire and ability to learn and develop and grow, and that one should rather not presuppose that most “don’t care” anyway or that they would not be able to understand or internalise a concept.



I tend to view this similarly like SomebodyElse described above in post #30.

If I could open up to learn and understand about veganism*, so can others. It is no less likely that someone who seems a complete stranger to the idea now, could one day be there, than it once was likely that I ever would (indeed there was “no secret magic formula” which enabled me more to get there than anybody else, it was rather a question of getting the right "impulses" at the right time). Therefore, I personally tend to view “non-vegans” as not-yet-vegans. (Not saying that I think going vegan works the same way for everybody, or that I expect a majority actually will go vegan any time soon - but such considerations should not affect the cause or importance of spreading it anyway).



*here’s the Vegan Society’s definition which cannot be mentioned often enough...

Quote:
Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment.



Quote:
Originally Posted by PneumaticJawz78 View Post

And it definitely doesn't hurt to support areas with free-range chickens and well-treated cows

… depending on who the “doesn’t hurt” refers to!
06-19-2008 11:17 PM
PneumaticJawz78 I've always figured that if you've gone ovo-lacto veggie, then veganism will practically be a breeze.



To be honest, with the help of Silk Soymilk and other faux-milks out there (not to mention eNergy Egg Substitute for baking!!), it's really not too tricky. The hardest part is finding quick things to whip together that aren't too processed or expensive (for example- Amy's line of easy vegetarian/vegan meals is a favorite of mine, but they're QUITE expensive to get on a regular basis so they are certainly not standbys), and then finding the time to cook something at all. There are quickies, but I myself have trouble finding the time to cook and clean up afterwards.



To be honest, I figure that marginally, there isn't a huge amount you can do whether you're fully veganized or not- and with vegetarianism, you're really getting to the root of the whole movement, the prevention of killing a ridiculously large amount of animals. Dairy and eggs might be at least MORE okay if there weren't so many animals suffering on behalf of them. But that's how the industry works.



Anyway. Ramble. It's all about what you're comfortable with. I was okay with vegetarianism for many years *Shrug*. Just have everything in moderation. And it definitely doesn't hurt to support areas with free-range chickens and well-treated cows (going local as opposed to buying from a chain is as good as you're going to get to knowing just what you're going to be putting on your plate, although I certainly know about the cost!!).
06-19-2008 10:02 PM
ElArte
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefiddlerscall View Post

Personally I think any step is a good one. If your video would be able to convert far more people into vegetarianism than into veganism it might be a good start.

You could even have more than one video and alternate the focus and which you show depending on the target audience.



I think what you're doing is great though, the more aware people are of the suffering, the better!

Thanks for the message!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SomebodyElse View Post

No. While humans indulge in the luxury of taking their time to make their transition easy and comfortable for themselves, animals are still suffering. If you are dealing with people who care about animals, why give them the impression that its ok for the animals if they take their time? What real difference does it make to the animals you are still eating, even if you are only eating one tenth as many as you did a year ago? That is like saying I am benefiting all the people I don't murder by reducing the number of people I do murder.

I doubt my audience, not just my family, but people in general really care about animals, though. That is why in the video I include references of how our food consumption plays a role in other places in the world and affects millions of humans. Since the majority of humans believe in anthrocentrism I hope this will affect a few more people, but it's hard to get people to care, especially when proposing such an "extreme" solution. But, I understand what others have said and I will try the "incremental veganism" by not explaining every detail. I will state that living vegan is the endeavor to eiliminate animal and animal product consumption for the benefit of humans, animals, and their own personal health.

Quote:

I'm not trying to ignore how difficult it can be for people to change. But even if their were only one cow left in the world who was still suffering in order to produce milk for the last few people who refuse to stop drinking it, that cow is still suffering 100% of the time.



I just don't think of animals as numbers and percentages. They are individuals who suffer from abuse, and this suffering isn't to be measured by how few are experiencing it.



I am also very dubious about the tendency of most humans to look for any reason not to do as much as they possibly can. A bunch of vegetarians saying "every little bit helps" is just giving people permission to feel good about what they are not willing to give up, rather than conveying the sense of urgency that what we are doing is still not enough.

You're saying "all or nothing" and I agree. I will do my best to get that message without actually saying those exact words and discouraging people.



Are we as vegans doing enough?



Quote:
Originally Posted by sybaritik View Post

Yes. Veganism is not just a change in diet, it's a big change in lifestyle from meat eating, and there's a lot to learn. Many people drop out because they find the change too overwhelming.



In general, people are more likely to stick with veganism if they do a slow adjustment rather than make a sudden jump.







It's obviously not as ideal as veganism, but if someone can't cope as a vegan and the alternative is a possible return to meat-eating, it certainly is good enough

I don't want to say "take it slow" or "transition on a time that works for you" to anyone again because when I first became a vegetarian one of my friends was interested and I told her to "take it easy" and she said she would do it. She's taking it very easy today and still eats animals on occasion, though she has tried with my help to cut back all together. When I learned that poor and starving people are affected I told her this, too, but people in general just don't really care. Most people would rather donate to their church to save their souls mor ethan anything. That's part of the reason I'm making a fourth video about Christianity and animals, also my family is Catholic, too. It's sort of a guilt trip. Not that honest, but it's a last resort to appeal to them.



I really don't think there's that much to learn about strict vegetarianism. All it takes is an understanding of why it is necessary, a guide of healthy vegetearian foods, maybe a little more time to do shopping, and having a good time learning new recipes. Anyone cna learn that quickly enough and that will give them a good base to start vegan. What drives someone to learn more is the most important part, I think.
06-19-2008 05:48 PM
SomebodyElse I would like to address some of the points you raised, FitChick99, in a general way, however, since there are tons of people who think the same way. So what I am writing is not a personal criticism of you; its just my take on the ideas you expressed here, that are shared by many.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FitChick99 View Post

However, unfortunately most of us weren't raised vegans, and therefore have gotten accustomed to a lifestyle that included meat products.

Actually almost none of us were raised vegan. We have pretty much all grown up in the same culture, in very much the same way. There is no hardcore AR vegan here who hasn't gone through what everyone else goes through on the way to veganism. I personally would not dare expect anyone to experience what I have not experienced myself, in arriving at the point I am at today. There is nothing special about me; there is no quality I possess that makes it any easier for me than it is for anyone else, and I didn't start out with any secret magic formula that works for me, but no one else.



Quote:
Originally Posted by FitChick99 View Post

I think every little bit helps, as some people have said, and I'm disappointed to see that some people have an all or nothing approach.

I agree with what meatless said. My only motivation for advocating veganism is animal freedom. Animal freedom is an all or nothing concept, so I can't help but be less than enthusiastic about people who aren't willing to do everything they can, if they claim to be doing what they are doing because they care about animals.



I do tend to take any situation and think it all the way through to its logical conclusion, and that's how I made myself go vegan. I saw anything less than veganism as myself not wanting to be pushed outside of what was familiar and comfortable to me, and once I faced reality, and knew I was copping out for selfish reasons, I had to do what I knew was right. No matter how awkward and unfamiliar it is to get pushed out of your comfort zone, it can never compare to, for example, a calf being ripped out his comfort zone by being taken from his mother and pushed down a ramp into the hands of a grinning demon waiting to kill him because there are millions of human beings who feel more entitled to his mother's milk than he is.



And that's one of the issues addressed by veganism, that is ignored by even strict vegetariansim. The notion that we as humans are entitled to see animals as resources, and that therefore we are entitled to take our time in giving up this view, or even in not giving it up at all. That we are entitled to use the bodies of others, and can choose whether we will, or not.



It is not a choice. It is not an entitlement.





Quote:
Originally Posted by FitChick99 View Post

Some of your posts almost make it sound like I may as well just go eat steak every day then since I haven't commited to going totally vegan.

Well, this is just irrational. If you are doing what you are doing for the sake of animals, the opinions of vegans should have no bearing on it. Using the argument that other people don't think you are making any difference to justify what you want to do is just another cop out.



But I am not writing this because I want to condemn people for not doing as much as I think I am doing. That's not the point at all. I know when I am doing everything I can. All I want is for other people to really be honest with themselves about whether they are really doing all they can, or making excuses for why they won't go as far as they know they can. I can't know how far anyone else is able to go, and I don't want to. I just want people to be realistic about exactly what they are doing, or not doing, and maybe to look outside of their own comfort zones, and think about what its like for the animals for a change.



If a person claims to care about animals at all, anything less than veganism just doesn't make any sense.
06-19-2008 12:26 PM
meatless I don't see it as an all or nothing approach in terms of people needing to do all or nothing right this moment or it's worth nothing.



What IS all or nothing to me is the concept that animals are not ours to use and abuse, they are sentient beings who have their own interests and who should not be commodified, and that ultimately that should be the guiding concept for our actions. It's understandable that not everyone can live a perfectly vegan life at first, if ever. It took me a couple years to transition myself. I used to consume a diet very heavy in animal products, and I was raised on a farm in the country, so I certainly understand that it can be difficult to change one's actions... and our outlook.



Promoting the consumption of dairy and eggs vis a vis vegetarianism says that it's ok to use and abuse animals under some situations. I personally cannot endorse that.
06-19-2008 12:03 PM
FitChick99 Okay, I get that the ultimate goal would be for no animals to suffer and for everyone to lead a completely vegan lifestyle, and I agree and respect that. However, unfortunately most of us weren't raised vegans, and therefore have gotten accustomed to a lifestyle that included meat products. I'm a new vegetarian, and am trying hard to go as vegan as I can, at least in the dietary sense to start, but no, it's not happening overnight. Aside from all of the dairy I already had bought before I made the change to vegetarianism, finding a suitable vegan substitute has been a challenge on some things for me as well. I finally tried a soy yogurt I liked today, which now I will need to fit into my caloric intake for the day, as it is double the mount of calories compared to my dairy yogurt, with half the protein as well. So no cows are suffering by me eating the soy yogurt, but my nutritional intake has gotten worse--a choice I am trying to stick by for good, but it is not so easy for everyone.



I think every little bit helps, as some people have said, and I'm disappointed to see that some people have an all or nothing approach. I know, once you choose the lifestyle, nothing else seems to make sense, but some people do need the transition time. I am trying to avoid dairy and eggs as much as possible, and do feel guilty if I eat it, but I can't commit to never eating it again right now either. Some of your posts almost make it sound like I may as well just go eat steak every day then since I haven't commited to going totally vegan. And no, I don't take it as a personal attack, and I'm not trying to create drama. It's just that I really think that every little bit helps, and we should be happy to encourage people who are trying to either cut back, cut out, meat/dairy/eggs in hopes that we'll save even just a few animals that year.
06-19-2008 11:36 AM
sybaritik
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElArte View Post

I haev two questions. Do you agree that introducing vegetarian first before vegan is a better idea?



Yes. Veganism is not just a change in diet, it's a big change in lifestyle from meat eating, and there's a lot to learn. Many people drop out because they find the change too overwhelming.



In general, people are more likely to stick with veganism if they do a slow adjustment rather than make a sudden jump.



Quote:
Is vegetarian (non lacto/ovo) good enough?



It's obviously not as ideal as veganism, but if someone can't cope as a vegan and the alternative is a possible return to meat-eating, it certainly is good enough
06-19-2008 11:02 AM
meatless
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana View Post

Promoting vegetarianism is not a good idea. It does not question at all the idea that animals should not be used as commodities and as resources. All it does is to promote the idea that animal flesh should not be eaten. But how do you get then across to the person that the dairy products/eggs, etc. are also completely mixed up in the death-scene?



Promoting what is called Incremental Veganism is far better when it comes to nudging people towards veganism. Tell them to go vegan one day a week, then two days, then three days and so on. Or encourage them for one week to eat all the lunches vegan-style, then the next week, all their breakfasts and lunches. Then the following week all their meals.



06-19-2008 07:51 AM
Diana Promoting vegetarianism is not a good idea. It does not question at all the idea that animals should not be used as commodities and as resources. All it does is to promote the idea that animal flesh should not be eaten. But how do you get then across to the person that the dairy products/eggs, etc. are also completely mixed up in the death-scene?



Promoting what is called Incremental Veganism is far better when it comes to nudging people towards veganism. Tell them to go vegan one day a week, then two days, then three days and so on. Or encourage them for one week to eat all the lunches vegan-style, then the next week, all their breakfasts and lunches. Then the following week all their meals.
06-18-2008 04:46 PM
SomebodyElse
Quote:
Originally Posted by meatless View Post

Of course, reality dictates we have to be outwardly patient with people who are moving towards a vegan lifestyle so that they are successful getting there, but that doesn't mean that "anything goes" or that each and every action someone might take is equally good or meaningful.

I agree with you as well. There seems to be a fine line between making incremental changes without losing sight of the ultimate goal, and settling for stopping before you get there because what you are doing is better than nothing. Trying to encourage people to do more, without discouraging them by implying that what they are presently doing is not enough, is like walking a tightrope!
06-18-2008 01:18 PM
Bells
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomebodyElse View Post

No. While humans indulge in the luxury of taking their time to make their transition easy and comfortable for themselves, animals are still suffering. If you are dealing with people who care about animals, why give them the impression that its ok for the animals if they take their time? What real difference does it make to the animals you are still eating, even if you are only eating one tenth as many as you did a year ago? That is like saying I am benefiting all the people I don't murder by reducing the number of people I do murder.



I'm not trying to ignore how difficult it can be for people to change. But even if their were only one cow left in the world who was still suffering in order to produce milk for the last few people who refuse to stop drinking it, that cow is still suffering 100% of the time.



I just don't think of animals as numbers and percentages. They are individuals who suffer from abuse, and this suffering isn't to be measured by how few are experiencing it.



I am also very dubious about the tendency of most humans to look for any reason not to do as much as they possibly can. A bunch of vegetarians saying "every little bit helps" is just giving people permission to feel good about what they are not willing to give up, rather than conveying the sense of urgency that what we are doing is still not enough.



I have people in my family who might be willing to make a small reduction in their consumption of meat or dairy, but they would never give it up by choice. In certain instances, I think it's fine to say "every little bit helps," because eventually, those small reductions would lead to a lesser demand of animal products... It might not be as beneficial as veganism, but it's still a start.
06-18-2008 01:08 PM
meatless
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomebodyElse View Post

No. While humans indulge in the luxury of taking their time to make their transition easy and comfortable for themselves, animals are still suffering. If you are dealing with people who care about animals, why give them the impression that its ok for the animals if they take their time? What real difference does it make to the animals you are still eating, even if you are only eating one tenth as many as you did a year ago? That is like saying I am benefiting all the people I don't murder by reducing the number of people I do murder.



I'm not trying to ignore how difficult it can be for people to change. But even if their were only one cow left in the world who was still suffering in order to produce milk for the last few people who refuse to stop drinking it, that cow is still suffering 100% of the time.



I just don't think of animals as numbers and percentages. They are individuals who suffer from abuse, and this suffering isn't to be measured by how few are experiencing it.



I am also very dubious about the tendency of most humans to look for any reason not to do as much as they possibly can. A bunch of vegetarians saying "every little bit helps" is just giving people permission to feel good about what they are not willing to give up, rather than conveying the sense of urgency that what we are doing is still not enough.



I agree 100%.



Of course, reality dictates we have to be outwardly patient with people who are moving towards a vegan lifestyle so that they are successful getting there, but that doesn't mean that "anything goes" or that each and every action someone might take is equally good or meaningful.
06-18-2008 01:05 PM
sparrow48161 "Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little." -Edmund Burke
06-18-2008 01:02 PM
SomebodyElse
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElArte View Post

But it does help to an extent. In video 3, I quote an article from the USDA that says in 1996, the average person ate 191 lbs of meat. Isn't it evident that even a small reduction in meat consumption makes a difference to animals?

No. While humans indulge in the luxury of taking their time to make their transition easy and comfortable for themselves, animals are still suffering. If you are dealing with people who care about animals, why give them the impression that its ok for the animals if they take their time? What real difference does it make to the animals you are still eating, even if you are only eating one tenth as many as you did a year ago? That is like saying I am benefiting all the people I don't murder by reducing the number of people I do murder.



I'm not trying to ignore how difficult it can be for people to change. But even if their were only one cow left in the world who was still suffering in order to produce milk for the last few people who refuse to stop drinking it, that cow is still suffering 100% of the time.



I just don't think of animals as numbers and percentages. They are individuals who suffer from abuse, and this suffering isn't to be measured by how few are experiencing it.



I am also very dubious about the tendency of most humans to look for any reason not to do as much as they possibly can. A bunch of vegetarians saying "every little bit helps" is just giving people permission to feel good about what they are not willing to give up, rather than conveying the sense of urgency that what we are doing is still not enough.
06-18-2008 06:23 AM
itsveggietime! I think a good beginning is to introduce th idea of trying to cut down on the suffering we cause to animals, our planet and our own health, by the mindset that if a dead animal isn't in there, it isn't done yet. A mind that is open will automatically begin to question things on their own, and come to realizations. If I'd been presented with the long list of everything with a dead animal in it when I first thought to stop eating meat a few times a week (basically, animals are in everything), I'd just gave up and knew it was hopeless. But, little by little, I find products that take the place of this or that, and I find my way, without someone else strong-arming me. If were to have listened to a certain group of vegans when I first started on path, they would have stripped everything from my hands and life and left me standing there with naked and hungry. Most people can't funtion like that. It takes time to LEARN what the replacement things are. It also felt very useless when someone gave me a recipe and indicated it should use sustainable mayonaise,which I asked what t meant, thinking the mayonaise would fly apart and not take heat well. Her answer was too big and left me not knowing what she meant without searching. I thought, I can't trace every product across the globe
06-18-2008 06:17 AM
thalestral I also think any step is a good one, as it is the first step. Veganism is a journey rather than a destination in my view. To see it as a destination would have been very scary and off putting to me as an omnivore becoming vegetarian. I thought that veganism was hard, but vegetarianism was something achievable that I could do, that could make a difference.



After time as a vegetarian I realised that veganism was the next step for me, and I actually found it quite easy - certainly not the scary prospect it once was! I was vegetarian for a year before I went vegan, for some people they move on a lot quicker, others take more time. But we are all on the same journey and that is what is important
06-17-2008 11:59 PM
thefiddlerscall Personally I think any step is a good one. If your video would be able to convert far more people into vegetarianism than into veganism it might be a good start.

You could even have more than one video and alternate the focus and which you show depending on the target audience.



I think what you're doing is great though, the more aware people are of the suffering, the better!
06-17-2008 11:35 PM
ElArte
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingthegreen View Post




ElArte, as somebody who works in the journalism/PR field, I would highly recommend doing some kind of personal story/statement about your grandmother. That is more apt to sit with somebody and also give them a specific example on somebody actually doing what you hope they will do. If you have the ability, an interview would be especially impactful, asking her why she made the move and what it has meant to her. But if you need to stay with the slide theme, maybe have a few talking about her reasonings and what making the change has meant to her.

You are so right about that. My grandma does not speak the best English and is a bit shy of the camera, but she has become very passionate about veganism, so I will talk to her on the weekend when I se eher. I am graeftul that she has given me lots of hope and she is already an outstanding role model for the entire family.

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Also, on a more minor note, the slides where the top half shows and then the bottom half, you need to have more time in between - either that or just show the whole screen at once. Personally, I do not care for the solely-slide approach. Maybe have the same text, but pictures behind. Something to make it easier on the eye (or harder, depending on what your pictures are of).



Hope that helps.

I've been trying to "fix it" with pictures, but there's only so much I can do with Windows Movie Maker, but your ideas really does help. I will see if I can get all the words to appear at once. Thanks for the help.
06-17-2008 11:29 PM
ElArte
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomebodyElse View Post

No, I am not confused, but to me, veganism goes further than diet.







I was simply addressing the idea that gradual transition is good enough, because it involves a supposedly helpful reduction in animal exploitation. If people are going veg to help animals, and taking their time to do it slowly, the animals still being exploited don't feel this reduction because they are still being exploited 100% of the time.

But it does help to an extent. In video 3, I quote an article from the USDA that says in 1996, the average person ate 191 lbs of meat. Isn't it evident that even a small reduction in meat consumption makes a difference to animals?

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In general, I think people need to quite focusing on the idea that, for example, since someone told them they can't call themselves vegan if they aren't avoiding things like stearic acid, they might as well just give up and be vegetarian. We need to think about what the real goal is, which is to reduce our deliberate consumption of animal sourced stuff as much as possible. Phrasing it in this way doesn't sound complicated or inconvenient to me, but then I am used to it by now, so maybe I have lost my perspective.

I agree with you and I will define vegan that way as. You said it well.

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Originally Posted by fyvel View Post

I also agree that veganism is the ultimate goal. I think that the way to approach it is to say that the idea is to have as little of a negative impact on animals as possible in your day to day life, and that nobody is perfect but we all do what we can.

You say it very well, too...thanks for sharing.



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Originally Posted by Quinoa View Post

So you mean strictly vegetarian (or what some, incl. myself before I knew better, would call "dietary vegan). Note though that many people might understand going vegetarian as replacing steak with cheese pizza, because the more common definition or connotation of vegetarian still is that of lacto/ovo vegetarian (not to mention the "semi-" and "pesca-/pollo-" variants). Like SomebodyElse said veganism on the other hand is more than a diet.

Agreeing with LucidAnne that every bit helps and no vegan is perfect, I would still choose to consistently say go vegan in a video like yours, instead of circling around promoting a (even strictly) vegetarian diet, because if the ultimate goal is veganism, it should be mentioned as such from the beginning.

Yeah a lot of people do think of it that way and I suppose by saying "Go vegetarian" and "don't consume milk and dairy" I am trying to give people a different look at vegetarianism, but I agree it is more consistent and important to stick with the vegan message and make it "less daunting" as LucidAnne said.



Making these videos with friends was fun at first, but now when I have time I just read over and over at what I wrote and trying to fidn out what is necessary and unnecessary. It is vey rhard, but I'm not giving up. Talking to a friend who likes movies he said editing usually takes the longest when they are making and told me not to give up.





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Originally Posted by Wednesday_12 View Post


So maybe you could get your friends to be vegetarian with 'Vegan days'?

Oneof my friends said, "I respect what you do" and he shows it by not eating meat around me, so I think that will work for him, but most of my friends just say...I eat what I want to eat, it's my right...or something like that.
06-17-2008 11:01 PM
lovingthegreen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinoa View Post

Personally, I often wished I had been introduced to veganism from an ethical/AR perspective much sooner, instead of getting there on a roundabout way via dietary vegetarianism etc. - but that's just me.



I completely understand what you're saying. I am happy I found VB early on in my conversion as I went from full omni to 99% vegan in about three weeks and have been that way for a few months with no leanings toward ever going back and with a definite goal of making it 100% at some point (well as 100% as is possible). Personally, I view that any discomfort I go through is nothing compared to what the animals endure.



Point being, I think it is really important to inform people of everything and then hopefully something will sink in and their diet will change for the better. Something is better than nothing and something is a step on the way to everything.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinoa View Post

Any chance of including that story or a personal statement by her in your video?



ElArte, as somebody who works in the journalism/PR field, I would highly recommend doing some kind of personal story/statement about your grandmother. That is more apt to sit with somebody and also give them a specific example on somebody actually doing what you hope they will do. If you have the ability, an interview would be especially impactful, asking her why she made the move and what it has meant to her. But if you need to stay with the slide theme, maybe have a few talking about her reasonings and what making the change has meant to her.



Also, on a more minor note, the slides where the top half shows and then the bottom half, you need to have more time in between - either that or just show the whole screen at once. Personally, I do not care for the solely-slide approach. Maybe have the same text, but pictures behind. Something to make it easier on the eye (or harder, depending on what your pictures are of).



Hope that helps.
06-17-2008 07:03 PM
Fyvel
Quote:
Originally Posted by LucidAnne View Post

i agree that while every bit helps, better isnt good enough in the eyes of the animals. I do think that helping your friends to question their impact is great. Nobody, no vegan, is perfect, so showing them that may let them see veganism as less daunting. For some people,a slower transitionis easier and more practical...but i do think the ultimate goal is veganism.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Wednesday_12 View Post

For me personally, I don't think that Vegetarianism is enough. But if people feel that veganism is too difficult than vegetarianism is better than nothing.



I also agree that veganism is the ultimate goal. I think that the way to approach it is to say that the idea is to have as little of a negative impact on animals as possible in your day to day life, and that nobody is perfect but we all do what we can. Implying that nothing less than vegan is worth doing is self defeating, IMO. People may be willing to reduce their meat intake, but not go vegetarian - but after they reduce their intake they may eventually go vegetarian and then vegan when they realize it's not all that bad.



I don't think very many vegans went from omni to vegan overnight. Yes, these people exist, but they're few and far between. Most of us took a gradual route. My job involves helping people make dietary/lifestyle changes, and most people have the most success with making small gradual changes over time than making changes overnight (though some people thrive on the latter, they are the exception rather than the rule)
06-17-2008 01:35 AM
Wednesday_12 For me personally, I don't think that Vegetarianism is enough. But if people feel that veganism is too difficult than vegetarianism is better than nothing.



A lot of people, like my family, are very into their meat- so refuse to even become vegetarian- so I try to encourage 'Vegan days'- where the family has at least one vegetarian or vegan day a week. I'll cook at least once a week for them, so that there are days where we don't have meat or animal products (at least at dinner). Although this is not ideal, it is still better than nothing. My family have started using vegan margarine on a regular basis though and buying vegan dressings for our salads!



So maybe you could get your friends to be vegetarian with 'Vegan days'?
06-17-2008 12:00 AM
Quinoa
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElArte View Post

What I meant by "non lacto/ovo" is vegetarianism without consuming dairy or eggs.

So you mean strictly vegetarian (or what some, incl. myself before I knew better, would call "dietary vegan). Note though that many people might understand going vegetarian as replacing steak with cheese pizza, because the more common definition or connotation of vegetarian still is that of lacto/ovo vegetarian (not to mention the "semi-" and "pesca-/pollo-" variants). Like SomebodyElse said veganism on the other hand is more than a diet.

Agreeing with LucidAnne that every bit helps and no vegan is perfect, I would still choose to consistently say go vegan in a video like yours, instead of circling around promoting a (even strictly) vegetarian diet, because if the ultimate goal is veganism, it should be mentioned as such from the beginning.

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Did you skip through the video because it was boring, too long? I made the "slides" long so my grandma and grandpa and other slow readers have time to take it all in. Were they too long for you?

Too long for me (at the time I saw your thread), yes seeing a time over 3 min under the screen alone can keep me from watching a youtube video. But thats just me and doesnt serve as a general rule.

If the addressees are mainly people you know well like real life family and friends I think its fine if the videos are a little longer, as these people are more inclined to take the time and watch and listen than total strangers, and it certainly is thoughtful of you to adjust the slides to your readers needs.

Its always a good idea (very hard I know, but worth trying) though to make the message short and memorable (and to leave out a few details for the sake of getting across the main points first).
06-16-2008 10:28 PM
SomebodyElse
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElArte View Post

My apologies for causing confusion to you and anyone else, perhaps including "SomebodyElse". What I meant by "non lacto/ovo" is vegetarianism without consuming dairy or eggs.

No, I am not confused, but to me, veganism goes further than diet.





Quote:
Originally Posted by ElArte View Post

I'm not sure what you mean by your words I bolded. Do you mean "they" as a collective or individual? Why would "they" not feel the difference?

I was simply addressing the idea that gradual transition is good enough, because it involves a supposedly helpful reduction in animal exploitation. If people are going veg to help animals, and taking their time to do it slowly, the animals still being exploited don't feel this reduction because they are still being exploited 100% of the time.



In general, I think people need to quite focusing on the idea that, for example, since someone told them they can't call themselves vegan if they aren't avoiding things like stearic acid, they might as well just give up and be vegetarian. We need to think about what the real goal is, which is to reduce our deliberate consumption of animal sourced stuff as much as possible. Phrasing it in this way doesn't sound complicated or inconvenient to me, but then I am used to it by now, so maybe I have lost my perspective.
06-16-2008 10:22 PM
Brandon
Quote:
Originally Posted by LucidAnne View Post

i agree that while every bit helps, better isnt good enough in the eyes of the animals. I do think that helping your friends to question their impact is great. Nobody, no vegan, is perfect, so showing them that may let them see veganism as less daunting. For some people,a slower transitionis easier and more practical...but i do think the ultimate goal is veganism.



Agree. Completely.



Nice post, LucidAnne.
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