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#1 Old 06-27-2016, 03:19 PM
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European Union

Just thought that I'd send my good wishes and support to all fellow VB UK members who may have been a bit traumatised by the recent EU vote and prior/subsequent events, whichever way you voted.

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#2 Old 06-29-2016, 12:04 AM
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And then England loses to Iceland in the knockout round of the European championships. Iceland!

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#3 Old 06-29-2016, 03:07 AM
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And then England loses to Iceland in the knockout round of the European championships. Iceland!
Bread and circuses, per the ancient saying.
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#4 Old 06-30-2016, 07:49 PM
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My condolences from Canada.

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#5 Old 06-30-2016, 09:29 PM
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I'm living in the US but from the UK, and I'm shocked and appalled. What has happened to my country? I used to say I was from England with pride (and it was mostly England that voted this way, so that's why I'm specifying) and now I can only hang my head in shame at all of the racism and xenophobia in the country I once called home.
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#6 Old 08-02-2016, 06:12 PM
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Not just England, Wales also voted to leave. Northern Ireland was split on this, as on so many things. Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain. A deeply depressing and embarassing time to be old, white, and English, because so many people who look like me (but who have far fewer degrees) voted to leave the EU. I should become a "Brefugee", and climb over Hadrian's Wall, back into Scotland where I did my first degree.

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06...voted-and-why/

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpo...aining-brexit/

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpo...s-brexit-vote/
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#7 Old 08-03-2016, 06:40 AM
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However gloomily things are currently perceived in the UK, I remind my compatriots of the following reason for us not to be too downhearted.

We do not have Donald Trump as our (potential) leader.


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#8 Old 08-09-2016, 07:15 PM
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We do not have Donald Trump as our (potential) leader.
But you do have Boris Johnson as chief diplomat. That's gotta count for something

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#9 Old 08-10-2016, 02:03 AM
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But you do have Boris Johnson as chief diplomat. That's gotta count for something
Yes but at least Boris doesn't have his finger anywhere near the nuclear button. Your chap potentially does....
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#10 Old 08-10-2016, 02:35 AM
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Yes but at least Boris doesn't have his finger anywhere near the nuclear button. Your chap potentially does....
Richard Nixon once said that people vote their fears. I dearly hope this is true come November.
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#11 Old 08-10-2016, 04:29 PM
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Yes but at least Boris doesn't have his finger anywhere near the nuclear button. Your chap potentially does....
That's a solid point you make there.

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#12 Old 08-29-2016, 01:59 PM
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Former (? I'm a yankee, so I'm not sure) UK Independence Party leader Nigel Ferage spoke at a Trump rally in Mississippi last week.

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#13 Old 08-29-2016, 04:05 PM
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Former (? I'm a yankee, so I'm not sure) UK Independence Party leader Nigel Ferage spoke at a Trump rally in Mississippi last week.
Yes, Nigel is now a former leader of UKIP. He resigned the same day that the referendum result was known. His party only has the grand total of one Member of Parliament, Douglas Carswell, who doesn't get on with Nigel...

This side of The Pond, the media treat Trump as a joke so nobody at all is surprised that he and Nigel are buds.
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#14 Old 11-22-2016, 04:39 PM
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As a Jew who has seen the UN vote AGAINST Jews repeatedly, I am relieved by the EU vote. The more anti-semetic countries that unify together, the closer we will be to "WWIII" when all nations come against Israel to eradicate Jews from the face of the earth. This will happen. I've been very quiet when I found out that many people here thought it was a "racist vote" to be against the unification process. I could only think about racist against who? Europeans or Jews? It was the European countries that all voted AGAINST Israel, as if killing off Jewish Israel, would stop the middle east war! It won't. Those same warriors are also against the entire Western Civilization.

I don't expect many people to agree with me. The media has lied so many times about the war in Israel. Missionaries and non-profits who treat all people regardless of race, have sent the truth overseas. David Cohen who used to work for CBS, was orderd to lie about Israel. He quit instead.

Hamas means chaos. They will always create chaos. Without the Jews to bang around, they will go after another race. The world insisted that Jews pull out of the Gaza strip. Guess what? The Gaza strip is a ghost town with no one there! VICE tv did an excellent short about this! They nailed it! People lost their jobs. What did the UN get out of this? Job well done! We kicked the Jews and we told them! UN also kicked the Palestinians who worked there. Whose right? The UN and the EU? No! I must support the acceptance of all races and all beliefs. I can not support blatant hate of one race in favour of everyone else.

And no, I will NOT comment further as I am not going to go there. Sorry! And yes, I do support England. I have English blood in me, and has always wanted to live there, and curtsy to the Queen. Thanks for understanding my take. And no, I won't comment further, but I do appreciate your opinions - including those that differ from mine. Thanks!
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#15 Old 11-22-2016, 05:21 PM
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It's not racist to be against the unification process but some people voted to leave the EU because of better control over our UK borders in order to reduce immigration. Some people might want less immigration because of less open minded attitudes if not actual racism at least some concerns about immigrants.
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#16 Old 11-22-2016, 10:34 PM
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The UN votes are not "against Jews." They are against Israel. Big difference. However, it's clear that you support Israel strongly, tpktyteroo. That's certainly your right, and I respect it. You can, I assume, respect my right to point out that Israel is currently occupying the West Bank and subjugating the Palestinian residents there, in violation of multiple UN resolutions. All of this, of course, is beyond the scope of veganism and vegetarianism--with, I guess one exception. Israel apparently has the highest percentage of vegans of any nation on Earth. So that's a good thing! But be aware, if you choose to wade into an issue like the Middle East on this Board, not everyone here is going to agree with your views.

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#17 Old 11-24-2016, 04:26 PM
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The UN votes are not "against Jews." They are against Israel. Big difference.
I think that the votes are reflective of a lot of antisemitism present at the UN. All the fighting and killing and misogyny throughout the world and especially in the Muslim/Arab countries but the only Jewish nation, namely Israel, bears the brunt of the "anti" votes at the UN. Not saying that Israel is perfect but I think that a lot of people with a lot of anti-Israel views need to take a long hard look at themselves and their reasons for being that way...

Lv

[I realise that the thread has gone off-topic so if the mods want to move any posts, I have no probs with that.]

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#18 Old 11-24-2016, 04:38 PM
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It should be noted that a considerable chunk of the pro-Isreal-regardless-of-anything faction in the US is decidedly anti-Jewish at it's core. I can't speak as to other countries, in fact I have good reason to guess that it's different elsewhere, but the politics of Isreal here are tied up with fringe elements of fundamentalist Christianity. Support for Isreal derives from 19th century ideas about the "end times" and the role a Jewish nation will play in the apocolyptic events preceding the return of Christ. As for Jews themselves, the idea is to convert them to Christianity, not to support them in their Jewish faith. Some even put a number on it - the conversion of X number of Jews, along with a war in the Middle East, will bring about the Second Coming (according to the end times theology hacks). I'd classify all this as complete bunk. Bad methodology breeding bad theology, but it's more common than anyone lets on. The only time I've seen this covered in the mainstream is after former president Bush (43) gave a paid speech to a group that seeks to convert Jews and the Jewish community (rightfully) objected.

Which brings us to the media. At the end of the day, corporate media is thoroughly CORPORATE media. The conspiracy addled right are far too lucrative a market to alienate too much. The right wing media marketing scam has taught the for profit media that much.

As an example take coverage of Brexit (which also steers the thread back on topic ). The dominant media narrative this side of the pond is "Brexit is not a big deal. The markets tanked initially, but they've recovered". What they're missing is that BREXIT HASN'T HAPPENED YET! No doubt some quarters have taken initial steps to prepare for disentanglinging with the EU, but until disentanglement actually occurs, we don't actually know whether Brexit is a big deal or not.

I listen to the BBC World Service every night as I fall asleep, and they do a better job at covering Brexit (and most things) than American media. Based on their reporting, two areas look to be impacted significantly when the ties to Europe are severed: health care and energy. Look forward to paying more to get less.

--------------------

The idea that the populist nationalism that produced Brexit and the Trump administration will help Jews is absurd. Ask yourself "when has nationalism and conspiracy theory hurt Jews?" If it takes any time at all to come up with an answer ....

--------------------

For more on the fundamentalists and end timers, try googling "premillenial dispensationalism", "rapture theology", "end times theology", and "fundamentalst Christian eschatology". It's all quite disturbing.

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#19 Old 11-24-2016, 05:21 PM
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Hi Dave!

I went to a talk given by Buzz Aldrin in Israel many years ago. He was ok showing his lunar piccies but as soon as he started talking about 'finding God on the Moon, his (mainly Jewish) audience gradually and quietly left...

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#20 Old 11-25-2016, 08:45 AM
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Just thought that I'd send my good wishes and support to all fellow VB UK members who may have been a bit traumatised by the recent EU vote and prior/subsequent events, whichever way you voted.

Leedsveg
Don't get me started! Several councils where people voted to Leave the EU demanded that the UK government pays the EU subsidies that they currently receive. Seriously, you voted to leave the EU and now you want the rest of the UK to pay you the EU subsidies that you voted to lose? There is a village somewhere missing a perfectly good idiot.

Then Nigel Farage says "I want my country back" well Nigel your country doesn't want you back, please stay in America. And the tenuous link to these forums? Well the EU does provide some wildlife protection across 28 different countries as well as some animal rights protection across 28 different nations too. There is more to be done but 1 country protecting 1 species is good, 28 countries doing it simultaneously is much better.

And why did we vote to leave when we were on the winning side of 98% of EU votes? 98%! I'm lucky if I agree with 30% of what the UK parliament approves. And now the prediction is it's set to cost is £1,250 per household as well as bonfire of half the workers rights that the EU enforces. I for one like my rights!
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#21 Old 11-25-2016, 08:53 AM
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As a Jew who has seen the UN vote AGAINST Jews repeatedly, I am relieved by the EU vote. The more anti-semetic countries that unify together, the closer we will be to "WWIII" when all nations come against Israel to eradicate Jews from the face of the earth. This will happen. I've been very quiet when I found out that many people here thought it was a "racist vote" to be against the unification process. I could only think about racist against who? Europeans or Jews? It was the European countries that all voted AGAINST Israel, as if killing off Jewish Israel, would stop the middle east war! It won't. Those same warriors are also against the entire Western Civilization.

I don't expect many people to agree with me. The media has lied so many times about the war in Israel. Missionaries and non-profits who treat all people regardless of race, have sent the truth overseas. David Cohen who used to work for CBS, was orderd to lie about Israel. He quit instead.

Hamas means chaos. They will always create chaos. Without the Jews to bang around, they will go after another race. The world insisted that Jews pull out of the Gaza strip. Guess what? The Gaza strip is a ghost town with no one there! VICE tv did an excellent short about this! They nailed it! People lost their jobs. What did the UN get out of this? Job well done! We kicked the Jews and we told them! UN also kicked the Palestinians who worked there. Whose right? The UN and the EU? No! I must support the acceptance of all races and all beliefs. I can not support blatant hate of one race in favour of everyone else.

And no, I will NOT comment further as I am not going to go there. Sorry! And yes, I do support England. I have English blood in me, and has always wanted to live there, and curtsy to the Queen. Thanks for understanding my take. And no, I won't comment further, but I do appreciate your opinions - including those that differ from mine. Thanks!
I live in the UK and I can honestly say I can't remember 1 anti semetic incident or even verbal insult I have ever seen in my whole life. I have seen racist insults several times against many different peoples but never against anyone who was Jewish to be honest. I know it can and does happen, there are reports in the press but it's certainly rare for anyone to be anti semetic in the UK. Sadly, it's not rare for other forms of causal racism but Jewish people are honestly welcome in the UK. I think the plight of many eastern Europeans might change in the UK sadly but I am really not expecting any change in general attitudes towards the Jewish community.
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#22 Old 11-26-2016, 03:21 AM
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I live in the UK and I can honestly say I can't remember 1 anti semetic incident or even verbal insult I have ever seen in my whole life. I have seen racist insults several times against many different peoples but never against anyone who was Jewish to be honest. I know it can and does happen, there are reports in the press but it's certainly rare for anyone to be anti semetic in the UK. Sadly, it's not rare for other forms of causal racism but Jewish people are honestly welcome in the UK. I think the plight of many eastern Europeans might change in the UK sadly but I am really not expecting any change in general attitudes towards the Jewish community.
I've been hearing little anti-semitic comments for the last 60 years and I'm not Jewish. I wish that antisemitism was rare but I don't think it is. It's not been described as "the oldest hatred" without reason.

Lv

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#23 Old 11-26-2016, 06:25 PM
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Israel won the West Bank fair and square in the 67 war from the previous "occupier", Jordan. A war, I might add, where every nation bordering Israel attacked. Further, and most importantly, every nation bordering Israel refuses to recognize Israel as a Jewish state and have done so since 1948, save Egypt. In fact, most Arab states, including the Hamas government openly state that Israel and its people should be destroyed.
If I lived in israel the very last thing I would want is to cede the land right next door to someone who wanted me and my children dead.
Giving West Bank over to Palestinians would be irrational and foolish if one expects nations to act with even the slightest self interest.

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#24 Old 11-26-2016, 07:31 PM
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This Israel stuff is ridiculous, imo. Israel is an ethno-nationalist state, like Turkey, Iran, Russia, or Saudi Arabia. Any country that ties nationality to ethnicity is a problem. Israel is just another one. It expressly calls itself a "Jewish state." Moreover, Arabs living inside Israel proper are treated as second class citizens, both on a de jure and de facto basis. Basically, it's a rather mild form of apartheid or Jim Crow.

As for the West Bank, Israel is colonizing it and occupying it in violation of international law. It is slowly sending in settlers to completely colonize it. It keeps the Palestlnians who live there confined to ghettos. Of course, the Palestinians in the West Bank, while controlled by Israel, have no right to vote in Israeli elections. This is occupation and colonization.

Worse, Israel has a strong lobby in the U.S., led by AIPAC, which keeps the U.S. taxpayer money flowing to Israel and the vetoes of U.N. resolutions coming. Any politician in the U.S. who dares to stand up for Palestinian rights or dignity, including Bernie Sanders, gets savaged by AIPAC. Moreover, anyone who criticizes Israel runs the risk of being accused of being anti-Semitic, because just like in the post above, Israel apologists conflate opposition to Israel's policies with anti-Semitism, which is a way of silencing Israel critics. The whole thing is a scam.

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#25 Old 11-27-2016, 07:30 AM
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Israel won the West Bank fair and square in the 67 war from the previous "occupier", Jordan. A war, I might add, where every nation bordering Israel attacked. Further, and most importantly, every nation bordering Israel refuses to recognize Israel as a Jewish state and have done so since 1948, save Egypt. In fact, most Arab states, including the Hamas government openly state that Israel and its people should be destroyed.
If I lived in israel the very last thing I would want is to cede the land right next door to someone who wanted me and my children dead.
Giving West Bank over to Palestinians would be irrational and foolish if one expects nations to act with even the slightest self interest.
Neighbouring Jordan recognises Israel. In fact both they and Egypt have offered to send help to Israel to fight the recent bush fires. Although nearly all the Arab/Islamic countries seem to be against Israel, a few such as Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States keep in contact with Israel knowing that they have more to fear from Islamic extremists.

Mandatory Palestine of course covered the areas both east and west of the Jordan River. In the early 1920s, the eastern side of the River (Transjordan, later Jordan) was given semi-autonomy on the understanding that no Jews would be allowed to live there. When the British finally left the western side of the River in 1948, the UN plan was that the area was to be roughly split into two (the "Two States Solution") with the Jews having the western part and the Muslims having the eastern part. This was not accepted by the Muslim states and so following the Israeli Declaration of Independence, armies from Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq invaded. At the end of the war, the Jews/Israelis had control of a larger area than originally proposed but this is quite a common occurence following a war - think what happened after the Six Day War, also what happened after WWII where Poland lost 179,000 square km to Russia but gained 101,000 square km from Germany.

Before the Six Day War in 1967, the Egyptians and Jordanians were in control of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Nothing at all to stop a State of Palestine being established but of course the Muslim/Arab countries still wanted the whole region, including the land of Israel for such a state. After the Six Day War, the Egyptians and Jordanians had been forced out of Gaza and the West Bank but the residents of those areas still wanted to be part of the State of (Greater) Palestine which would mean the dissolution of the state of Israel. Israel is pretty unlikely ever to agree to this. We're talking about a very volatile region of the world folks, where groups such as Hamas, PLO, the Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah, ISIS etc are flourishing. To think there could be a Palestinian State that would not cause severe problems to its neighbour, Israel is extremely naive to say the least. Only in cloud cuckoo land and in online forums would people suggest someone having Hamas for their next door neighbour!

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#26 Old 11-27-2016, 09:40 AM
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leedsveg, as I said, I don't agree with your pro-Israel propaganda. Israel is a rogue, ethno-nationalist state, just like various other ethno-nationalist states around the world today (Russia, Turkey, and increasingly India and Poland). Like most ethno-nationalist states, it treats those who are not the preferred ethnicity as second class citizens. Moreover, it is increasingly becoming a right-wing authoritarian state under Netanyahu, with independent press, the judiciary, and the Israeli left being crushed and silenced. I fear that a similar fate might await my own nation, the U.S., when Trump enters office in January.

In any case, I don't know why we're having this discussion on a vegetarian/vegan forum. Others on here started the pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian stuff, and I responded by saying that not everyone here agrees. The reality is that, while most of us on here generally agree on vegan and vegetarian diets and lifestyles, there is no reason to believe that we would agree on the matter of Israel and the Palestinians.

As I said before, one area in which I do salute Israel is the prevalence of veganism there. Apparently it has the highest percentage of vegans of any nation, at 6%, and also has more vegetarians than most other nations. So, good for Israel in that respect!

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#27 Old 11-27-2016, 11:01 AM
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leedsveg, as I said, I don't agree with your pro-Israel propaganda. Israel is a rogue, ethno-nationalist state, just like various other ethno-nationalist states around the world today (Russia, Turkey, and increasingly India and Poland). Like most ethno-nationalist states, it treats those who are not the preferred ethnicity as second class citizens. Moreover, it is increasingly becoming a right-wing authoritarian state under Netanyahu, with independent press, the judiciary, and the Israeli left being crushed and silenced. I fear that a similar fate might await my own nation, the U.S., when Trump enters office in January.

In any case, I don't know why we're having this discussion on a vegetarian/vegan forum. Others on here started the pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian stuff, and I responded by saying that not everyone here agrees. The reality is that, while most of us on here generally agree on vegan and vegetarian diets and lifestyles, there is no reason to believe that we would agree on the matter of Israel and the Palestinians.

As I said before, one area in which I do salute Israel is the prevalence of veganism there. Apparently it has the highest percentage of vegans of any nation, at 6%, and also has more vegetarians than most other nations. So, good for Israel in that respect!
Hi Dilettante.

Yes, I can say that Israel is not a perfect state but unlike you, I choose not to ignore the particular circumstances of its founding. Antisemitism predates the establishment of the Israeli state by over a thousand years and that being the case, it was not too surprising that Jews who had mostly been in exile for nearly 2000 years, would want to return to their ancestral homeland. After all, they'd been saying "Next year in Jerusalem" for all those years every Passover. If there had been a state of Israel to flee to in the 1930s, maybe a few million less Jews from Europe would have been killed in the Holocaust?

Yes its sad that the non-Jewish citizens in the Jewish homeland feel to be second-class citizens, although they can of course join the army, join the police force, vote in parliamentary elections and elect whoever they want to represent them, be it a Jew or a Muslim etc. Unlike you though, I cannot pretend that in many countries in the Arab/Muslim world, things are not much, much worse. What do you think your fate would be if you came out as a Jew say, or a Christian, or an atheist in Saudi Arabia, Libya, Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia? And how many synagogues, churches or even women drivers do you think there are in those countries? Where are their independent press and judiciary? So why do you ignore what is happening in many other countries and only focus
on what is happening in the world's only Jewish state? Don't people in even worse circumstances in other countries deserve your compassion? Some might begin to think that pleading special compassion for Palestinians is really just a means of espousing hatred towards Israeli Jews.

Your saying that I'm coming out with pro-Israel propaganda does not necessarily make it so. I'm simply trying to understand the reasons for your particular anti-Israel bias.

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#28 Old 11-27-2016, 03:22 PM
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Your saying that I'm coming out with pro-Israel propaganda does not necessarily make it so. I'm simply trying to understand the reasons for your particular anti-Israel bias

Ah, the veiled accusations of anti-Semitism have arrived. It was only a matter of time. It's what always happens when anyone criticizes Israel. I can criticize the U.S., Turkey, Russia, any other nation. But criticize Israel and you apologists for that particular rogue, right-wing, ethno-nationalist state accuse its critics of anti-Semitism, either expressly or with the type of veiled insinuation you used against me just now. The tactic has gotten old, and it doesn't faze me in the least.

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#29 Old 11-27-2016, 03:54 PM
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What do you think your fate would be if you came out as a Jew say, or a Christian, or an atheist in Saudi Arabia, Libya, Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia? And how many synagogues, churches or even women drivers do you think there are in those countries? Where are their independent press and judiciary? So why do you ignore what is happening in many other countries and only focus on what is happening in the world's only Jewish state?

The reason I'm not talking about those other countries in this thread, quite obviously, is that one of the commenters, tpkyteroo luebeck, started all of this by stating pro-Israel propaganda in which you later joined. Nobody here has stated pro-Saudi, pro-Yemen, Pro-Libya etc. propaganda. Moreover, the reason I am more concerned about Israel than those other countries is not anti-Semitism, as you are obliquely insinuating, but because Israel is much more powerful, has nuclear weapons, and most importantly because Israel exerts a huge amount of influence in my own country, the United States, particularly through the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), which is probably the most powerful lobbying organization in Washington and has a lot of influence in both the Democratic and Republican Parties. Saudi Arabia, Libya, and Yemen? Not so much. So again, if you'd like to stick with the issues, that's fine. If you're going to use veiled allegations of anti-Semitism to disparage my (accurate) criticisms of Israel, it's just not going to work, with all due respect.

Last edited by Dilettante; 11-27-2016 at 05:32 PM.
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#30 Old 11-28-2016, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Dilettante View Post
Your saying that I'm coming out with pro-Israel propaganda does not necessarily make it so. I'm simply trying to understand the reasons for your particular anti-Israel bias

Ah, the veiled accusations of anti-Semitism have arrived. It was only a matter of time. It's what always happens when anyone criticizes Israel. I can criticize the U.S., Turkey, Russia, any other nation. But criticize Israel and you apologists for that particular rogue, right-wing, ethno-nationalist state accuse its critics of anti-Semitism, either expressly or with the type of veiled insinuation you used against me just now. The tactic has gotten old, and it doesn't faze me in the least.
I made a post then noticed that you had made a further post so I've cancelled mine that I just posted.

Last edited by leedsveg; 11-28-2016 at 05:20 AM.
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