can use some advise..sorry about the long drawn out post - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 01-11-2016, 05:25 AM
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can use some advise..sorry about the long drawn out post

there is a health and beauty product that I would really like to purchase but the darn thing tests on animals and there really is no alternative products that I am interested in using instead. Anyway, since I don't want to support animal testing I thought to try looking on ebay to see if anybody was trying to sell one that might be a bit damaged or outdated or something. I just figured that if I bought it this way I would not be directly supporting this product since I would be likely be purchasing it from someone that might just have an extra one they are trying to get rid of or perhaps a salvage store that sells unsold stock as opposed to buying it directly from a store so I have been deliberatly searching for items in the "used" or " not specified" status on ebay. I have found several items that come up when I search this way and I have noticed the expiration date is coming up soon on some of these items or at least quite a bit sooner than those freshly bought from the store. However, when I go to confirm with the seller whether these items are "unsold" stock they deny it everytime and instead they claim that they just bought the items fresh from the store. I have difficulty believing this due to the expiration dates being so much sooner with these items. I am thinking they dont want to admit this to me since they are probably thinking that I am like most others and would be more hesitant to buy items that are not fresh..of course though nothing could be further from the truth.
Anyway, the question that I have is...from what I have explained here does it sound like if I purchased this beauty product I would be supporting the animal testing industry? Do you think I am safe to purchase this despite what the seller has said?
Thanks so much in advance for any thoughts or suggestions on this..I really appreciate it=)
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#2 Old 01-11-2016, 05:44 AM
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there is a health and beauty product that I would really like to purchase but the darn thing tests on animals and there really is no alternative products that I am interested in using instead.

...

Anyway, the question that I have is...from what I have explained here does it sound like if I purchased this beauty product I would be supporting the animal testing industry? Do you think I am safe to purchase this despite what the seller has said?
Thanks so much in advance for any thoughts or suggestions on this..I really appreciate it=)
Yes, you would be supporting the animal testing industry by purchasing this product. A one time purchase might not create an ongoing demand if it is purchased used, but by if you continue to use it you will be adding to the market and supporting the company.

What is the product? I'm sure there is some kind of reasonable alternative.
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#3 Old 01-12-2016, 04:22 AM
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Thanks for the response Blue Gingham, so, do you mind elaborating a bit as to how you think this would support the industry if I ONLY buy them "used", "damaged" or "expired" or close to "expired" from a placed such as Ebay??

I also ask this because my roommate does a similar thing with other animal products as well. He will sometimes buy very outdated meat and milk from a salvage store..this store does not order anything, they get all their items from liquidation stores and places like that so no ordering is done..they just get boxes of items and they never know what is going to be in those boxes. In fact, I buy my dog meat based dog food from this store with the similar mindset that it is not adding to the supply and demand since nothing is "ordered" and all of these items are usually outdated, unsold stock, and/or damaged in some way.

My thinking has been that my ordering from Ebay like this would be similar to buying animal products from this salvage store?? I would think that none of this is supporting animal cruelty if this is the ONLY way I buy them, however, I am willing to rethink doing things this way if my thinking on this is wrong but I would first really need to understand how it would be wrong first??

Any elaboration you or anybody that agrees with you can give on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Last edited by Johnsally; 01-12-2016 at 04:37 AM.
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#4 Old 01-12-2016, 04:34 AM
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Also, I have read online that others that would otherwise claim to be veg friendly, do a similar type thing as a way to buy certain animal products as well. If you or anybody who thinks this somehow still supports the animal cruelty industries would care to explain exactly how it might benefit others that are also reading this.

Thanks again in advance=)
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#5 Old 01-12-2016, 04:44 AM
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Your roommate buys old and outdated meat and milk? Why?? 😱
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#6 Old 01-12-2016, 04:59 AM
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I would really look into an alternative, because, in my sense, when you buy something you encourage it, even if it's second hand or expired. Somehow you satisfy the demand for this product. There are a lot of alternatives for health and beauty product. And, even, sometimes a good alternative is to not using any, as we live in a consumers world that has convinced us that we need a whole lot of stuff to survive.
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#7 Old 01-12-2016, 05:07 AM
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Your roommate buys old and outdated meat and milk? Why?? 😱
actually he consumes it as gross as it sounds..lol. He also gives some of the meat to my dog too and my dog LOVES it. He has never had any issues with it so far. In fact, I used to dumpster dive for meat for my dog before a local small meat store closed down (yay!!) but I made good use of their discarded meat by giving it to my dog. My roommate would eat this meat too and he claimed to never have any issues with it either. The meat was usually just a few days passed the expiry date or in some cases was not expired at all. It is very sad to think of all that goes to waste in the world! It is one thing for an animal to have to die to feed someone but I think it is even more disgraceful for them to have to die to just wind up tossed in a dumpster! Talk about dying in vain.

Anyway, I was always in the mindset that my buying meat based dog food or any animal products from this salvage store would be kind of similar to dumpster diving for it since it seems to be run similar to a thrift store. I also thought buying outdated or used items from Ebay would fall under the same category but I am very ready listen to a good explanation if my thinking is wrong??

Anyway, thanks for the response, no whey jose.=)
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#8 Old 01-12-2016, 10:51 AM
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Whilst I can understand your logic (i.e. not directly supporting the company that tests on animals) it still doesn't sit right with me. It would seem the same as buying a partially used pack of bacon, carton of milk etc. from someone because it's 'not directly supporting those industries'.

I guess it's up to you to decide whether you want to try this product enough to overlook the fact it was tested on animals.
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#9 Old 01-12-2016, 01:28 PM
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actually he consumes it as gross as it sounds..lol. He also gives some of the meat to my dog too and my dog LOVES it. He has never had any issues with it so far. In fact, I used to dumpster dive for meat for my dog before a local small meat store closed down (yay!!) but I made good use of their discarded meat by giving it to my dog. My roommate would eat this meat too and he claimed to never have any issues with it either. The meat was usually just a few days passed the expiry date or in some cases was not expired at all. It is very sad to think of all that goes to waste in the world! It is one thing for an animal to have to die to feed someone but I think it is even more disgraceful for them to have to die to just wind up tossed in a dumpster! Talk about dying in vain.

Anyway, I was always in the mindset that my buying meat based dog food or any animal products from this salvage store would be kind of similar to dumpster diving for it since it seems to be run similar to a thrift store. I also thought buying outdated or used items from Ebay would fall under the same category but I am very ready listen to a good explanation if my thinking is wrong??

Anyway, thanks for the response, no whey jose.=)
I mean, ethically, it really does seem a better way to feed carnivorous pets. My objection is primarily aesthetic. The thought of old, expired meat... ugh...

What is this product you want to buy, anyway? Are you certain there are no vegan alternatives? If it's something you truly need and there isn't a cruelty-free version of it, then I suppose you should buy it in the most ethical way possible. If it's just a fancy lotion or lipstick or something, you can probably find a better, vegan version elsewhere. Maybe if you tell us what it is, we could help.
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#10 Old 01-13-2016, 07:18 AM
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Purchasing discounted products is still purchasing animal tested products, and still benefits the company which did the animal testing. Sure they might not make the profit they would have liked, but just by buying that product - even at a deep discount - you're still being a market for their products.

I'm curious too - what product do you want/need so badly that you're this conflicted to buy???

It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore
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#11 Old 01-13-2016, 08:04 AM
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Does this company test on animals as a routine, or just to market in PROChina?
I recall some once vegan brands stepping over that line.
Since the People's Republic required animal testing, the companies were caught. They could stay vegan and not expand, or they could be vegan in composition and 99 percent of the company outlook, but meet this particular governmental hurdle.

I, and mostly alone on another forum, fell on the side of understanding the ethical quandary the company faced and supporting them.
I'm not useful support, since I don't buy make up.
From what I recall, they basically had the same line, paid for just enough testing to open the market.

Everyone will have their personal bar for new products.
Mine includes how workers are treated. Someone else will be 100 percent animal oriented, and another concerned with who sits on the board of directors/political support.
Find yours, and know when to be quiet about your compromises.

I am, however, curious about a product of such singularity that there isn't an option of quality.
Plus, if you don't use it now, so you need it, or want it? Not a judgement, just a question for you to find your own answer.
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#12 Old 01-20-2016, 10:35 AM
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thanks for the feedback everyone! Well..I am glad that some see my logic and point here. =)

Well as poorly worded as my original post was my initial reason for asking that was to determine if the seller on Ebay was lying to me regarding the condition of the product . I didn't actually think anybody would debate that buying items in these ways would be unethical.

I am guessing that all those that oppose this would probably also oppose my making use of items I find in the dumpster as well??

To me there is absolutely NO ethical issue with my using the dumpter dived items. However, I will admit that an argument can probably be made regarding my purchasing the items from Ebay as well as the salvage or thrift stores but not because of the same reasoning Poppy has given as I am not really sold on the argument that I would be supporting these companies at all at that point, but I do feel a bit funny that I am taking away an opportunity for the item to be purchased from someone else..therefore, causing the standard consumer to buy items directly from the store. To counteract this what I will do sometimes is give away vegan items (particularly food items) to meat eaters that are willing to eat veg food on Freecycle. So for example, if my friend buys a 32 oz box of expired hamburgers from this salvage store and my dog eats some I will donate 40 oz of veg burgers to a meateater on Freecycle. I usually try and go a step higher with what I give away. In my mind this kind of evens the score a little bit.

I know in a perfect world it would be great if we can all be 100% vegan but I do find it difficult and especially when there is a companion animal involved. I am not a big believer in following veganism as if it were a religion based strictly on principle...to me, as long as what I am doing does not cause any further suffering then that is all that really matters in my opininion..it is tough enough to follow this way of life as it is. I am not really looking to make it any more difficult for myself.

Anyway, thanks again for the responses. Still open to any other thoughts on this if anybody has any they would like to share. Thanks again.

PS..to answer the other question..the product I am thinking to purchase on Ebay is the Canadian Preperation H but not for the reasons you would think. I want to purchase this because I have read that it is supposed to be very good for smoothing wrinkles and getting rid of bags around the eyes. Unlike the US version, the Canadian version is made with Biodyne and this is the ingredient that is supposed to work wonders. It is a secret that has been used by models for years. I have not found a vegan alternative at all. I know it is not a necessity in life but it is something I am very much interested in trying out. If there is a vegan alternative I would love to know about it.

Last edited by Johnsally; 01-20-2016 at 10:43 AM.
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#13 Old 01-20-2016, 02:46 PM
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But the Canadian Prep-H contains shark liver oil, doesn't it?
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#14 Old 01-20-2016, 04:46 PM
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If people admire the results that you achieve with this product, it wouldn't be a good idea to tell them about the product. This would be a type of advertising, which would serve to increase sales of this product (thus increasing the profits of the manufacturer and the animal-testing labs which serve it).

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Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
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#15 Old 01-20-2016, 07:51 PM
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Hi LadyFey,

Thanks for the response. Yes, unfortunately it does contain shark liver oil and I also think the the company that makes the product tests on animals. I am not certain of that but I am just assuming they do since it is a medicine so these are the reasons that I was trying to find an "off the market" way of purchasing it. i was hoping I might find someone on Ebay that had one with some kind of damage that they did not want or one that might be expired or close to it but I have not found any that fits this description on Ebay so far.

To me this is becoming the most challenging part of trying to live cruelty free...I am getting up there in age and would love to make use of all of the great cosmetic advances (like botox and things like that) but since they all test on animals I cant allow myself to use them. I might look better then ever if I did but would never be able to live with myself knowing that I chose vanity over the life of an animal so unfortunately I am missing out and I am stuck living in my rapidly aging skin and just being depressed about it. =(

David3,

Thanks for the response too. Yes, I agree that I would not tell anybody about it either if I ever have the opportunity to try it because like you said, I would not want to promote it.


My hope is they will stop this bloody animal testing soon ..of course for the animals but also for folks like myself.
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#16 Old 01-21-2016, 02:02 AM
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This probably won't mean much to you, but it's always been my opinion that women look more beautiful and elegant, and age more gracefully, without the application of various potions and creams.
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#17 Old 01-21-2016, 03:42 AM
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Also, I have read online that others that would otherwise claim to be veg friendly, do a similar type thing as a way to buy certain animal products as well. If you or anybody who thinks this somehow still supports the animal cruelty industries would care to explain exactly how it might benefit others that are also reading this.

Thanks again in advance=)
Hi all,

I think the decision to buy a second hand animal product is still contributing to animal cruelty, although my logic seem a bit different to everyone elses. To me, by buying that product there is one less second hand item to sell. Someone else who wants this product might have brought that second hand one, but since you have brought it, they cannot. So they will go and buy a new version of the product, which is still contributing to demand for that product, and therefore increase animal suffering and death.

Does that make sense? Would anyone else agree with my reasoning?
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#18 Old 01-21-2016, 12:49 PM
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Well as poorly worded as my original post was my initial reason for asking that was to determine if the seller on Ebay was lying to me regarding the condition of the product . I didn't actually think anybody would debate that buying items in these ways would be unethical.
Didn't you ask in the OP?

Just a thought:

If old stores* are regularly getting their stock from new stores*, why would the new store stop buying direct from the manufacturer if they know they can still unload their outdated stock on old stores to recoup some of their costs? Since the old store can still sell it, they're going to still buy it from the new store. Since the new store can unload it on the old store, the new store is still going to stock it.

Aren't you still aiding in a market for that product? You're just paying less for it.

*Old store - store selling the outdated products; new store - store selling the new products
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#19 Old 01-22-2016, 07:50 AM
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I'm so confused about this post.

1. If something has been tested on animals - it doesn't suddenly become animal friendly because you buy it second hand. Take the example of a fur coat - if you get one second hand it's still an animal pelt. You may not have contributed (directly) to the slaughter but if you are an ethical vegan or vegetarian surely this will still be an ethical issue?

2. As for dumpster diving - and eating food that is past it's sell by date (not it's use by date) isn't that a 'freegan' i.e. someone who is more concerned about the ethics and implications of food waste than about animal cruelty?

3. There is very little research (actual scientific research not paid for by the companies selling this stuff) that these creams actually make any difference to your skin. If you look at the ingredients in most of the creams out there - they're pretty much the same. However if your aim is to look young (more than it is to live a moral or ethical life) then go for it. I just don't understand why you're trying to justify it on a veggie board?

4. Ebay sellers. You know you can't know what (exactly) you're going to get until it arrives on your doorstep. I'd be extremely wary of buying any sort of used cosmetic. Once someone has opened up a bottle/jar or whatever all sorts of microbes can get in - especially if they've put their hands in the creme. PSA Ladies : NEVER SHARE COSMETICS! The girls in the office all had pinkeye about a year ago due to mascara or eyeliner sharing.

5. for bags under the eyes - there are a number of rather less chemical home remedies you could try. If the bags are puffy you could try cucumber slices (chilled) or cold chamomile or green tea bags. I've heard that strawberries (also chilled) have the same effect as cucumber. Drink lots of water as the puffiness could be a sign that you are retaining water because you're dehydrated (I know counter intuitive). Aloe vera gel - cooled - will rehydrate the skin and sooth any irritation (as longs as you're not allergic to it). If the area under your eyes is really dark ... well that's got to do with the thinness of your skin and how tired you are (stay away from caffiene and try to get some extra zz's) - also if you're super pale you will look darker under your eyes. If you are very thin you may also have dark circles under your eyes as you don't have enough fat under your skin. Please also remember that models wear an absolute mega tonne of make up and tend to be heavily photoshopped these days.
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#20 Old 02-03-2016, 05:08 AM
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Elli...yes, I agree with this and like I already explained, that is why I give away veg food items to meateaters on Freecycle to make up for this.

Tailfin...that is why I said my original OP was poorly worded. I will have to give some thought to what you have explained regarding the second hand store still supporting animal cruelty industries but I think it is getting a bit convoluted now and overanalyzed. The bottom line is that it is very difficult to believe that, for example, the meat industry being able to survive very long if they are forced to have to take an 80% loss in profits because that is about what this store sells these expired items for (at least 80% off their market value). From what I understand the meat industry is in the business to make money NOT lose money therefore I cant imagine salvage stores helping them thrive.

Shallot...Wow! did not think my post was interesting enough to warrant such a long response back..this must have taken quite a while to put together..lol. Anyway, I appreciate your beauty tips maybe I will give them a try sometime. Well, I agree that dumpster diving is often done by those concerned with eliminating waste but it does serve the purpose of eliminating animal cruelty too. I am not really interested in why others do it, I do it to feed my dog and I am happy it does not support animal cruelty. You used the word "freegan" to describe it..you can call it or label it whatever you want. I did not post this in the vegan or vegetarian section for a reason and just for the record, I got the idea of dumpster diving for my dog from an animal rights group so apparently it is done by others for that reason too, but like I said, I could not care less why others do it. Judging by post #3 it is clear that you are not understanding this post so you were right when you said you were confused, I guess you are. But again, I appreciate the beauty tips.

I think it is best to bring this post to an end since I did not word it correctly and the majority are not understanding what I was asking and thanks also for reminding me of why it is best that I spend as little time in here as possible. I know there are good and helpful people on here but to be honest, there are far too many that are so argumentative and combative it really is quite tiring and the whole vegetarian with an attitude thing is getting old now..it really does give vegetarianism a bad name, in all honesty and sadly turns people off from the cause more than anything. It is really sad that these people are allowed to take over the forum like this and run everyone out of here like they do but again, thanks for the reminder.=( I guess this forum is meant just for a select few since that is all that it will ever really attract.

Last edited by Johnsally; 02-03-2016 at 05:32 AM.
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#21 Old 02-03-2016, 07:37 AM
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Tailfin...that is why I said my original OP was poorly worded. I will have to give some thought to what you have explained regarding the second hand store still supporting animal cruelty industries but I think it is getting a bit convoluted now and overanalyzed. The bottom line is that it is very difficult to believe that, for example, the meat industry being able to survive very long if they are forced to have to take an 80% loss in profits because that is about what this store sells these expired items for (at least 80% off their market value). From what I understand the meat industry is in the business to make money NOT lose money therefore I cant imagine salvage stores helping them thrive.
The industry would not take a loss on all products, just those that are not able to be sold to the public because of, say, an expired date. They would not reduce the price of products they could sell, just those they couldn't. Instead of taking a complete loss on the products they can't sell to the public, they sell to another store at a very low rate to at least recoup some costs (for instance, using your example, 20% is better than 0%). YMMV.

I wouldn't necessarily say overanalyzed, unless you only want to look a the surface of any given topic, which will provide a generalized, and potentially erroneous, viewpoint. Once you start getting into the details, you have to start analyzing every part of the process. Look at the product from 'cradle-to-grave'.
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