It Starts With You Video - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 Old 03-13-2013, 11:11 PM
I ♥ Vegan Guys ◕‿◕
 
4everaspirit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,229

Just came across this and thought it would be worth sharing.  Some people may not appreciate this, thinking they are going about this the wrong way. I think these forms of activism are essential to the whole piece of the puzzle. Shouldn't be graphic,  but it contains showing of meat if that bothers people on here. Possible swearing.

 

 

I wish I had the guts. These guys are heroes to the animals more than I could ever be....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5wffvHafRY

vegan cyberpunk and Cato like this.

"Why should man expect his prayer for mercy to be heard by What is above him when he shows no mercy to what is under him?" ~Pierre Troubetzkoy
4everaspirit is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 Old 03-13-2013, 11:51 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
Ugh...this is so silly. This doesn't do anything but annoy people...they didn't change anybody's mind. Nothing.

I would add that Sprouts Market, the store they decided to disrupt, has a good selection of vegan products. Why they would pick this store to target is beyond me......its just really stupid.
logic is offline  
#3 Old 03-14-2013, 12:06 AM
I ♥ Vegan Guys ◕‿◕
 
4everaspirit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by logic View Post

Ugh...this is so silly. This doesn't do anything but annoy people...they didn't change anybody's mind. Nothing.

 

That wouldn't be logical to conclude....logic. How do you know that they didn't get anyone to think about this issue? Can you speak for everyone in the store suddenly? 

penny79 likes this.

"Why should man expect his prayer for mercy to be heard by What is above him when he shows no mercy to what is under him?" ~Pierre Troubetzkoy
4everaspirit is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#4 Old 03-14-2013, 01:04 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4everaspirit View Post

That wouldn't be logical to conclude....logic. How do you know that they didn't get anyone to think about this issue? Can you speak for everyone in the store suddenly? 
Because there were only a handful of people and nobody was really paying attention, they were just annoyed that they couldn't conduct their business. These people did this so they could post some video on you tube and they likely picked this store because Sprouts are more or less filled with yuppies....if they did this at a normal store they may had to deal with a serious confrontation.

Seriously, why would you protest in a store that is supportive of veg*n diets?!?! They not only have low priced produce, but offer a significant selection of vegetarian and vegan products. The only thing I can think of is the above, they knew they would be safe with their obnoxious "protest" at this store.

Regardless of whether they "reached" one of the few people in the meat area of the store, what they did was obnoxious and they were disrupting a store that is supportive of veg*n diets..... Only in the bay area.....
logic is offline  
#5 Old 03-14-2013, 01:19 AM
I ♥ Vegan Guys ◕‿◕
 
4everaspirit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by logic View Post


Because there were only a handful of people and nobody was really paying attention, they were just annoyed that they couldn't conduct their business. These people did this so they could post some video on you tube and they likely picked this store because Sprouts are more or less filled with yuppies....if they did this at a normal store they may had to deal with a serious confrontation.

Seriously, why would you protest in a store that is supportive of veg*n diets?!?! They not only have low priced produce, but offer a significant selection of vegetarian and vegan products. The only thing I can think of is the above, they knew they would be safe with their obnoxious "protest" at this store.

Regardless of whether they "reached" one of the few people in the meat area of the store, what they did was obnoxious and they were disrupting a store that is supportive of veg*n diets..... Only in the bay area.....

You didn't answer my question if you could speak for everyone in the store. You always think you know everything. You can't speak for everyone, logic. I know I have been in situations myself where something impacted me, I just didn't show it. All lot of people also pretend to not be impacted by something when it is right in front of them, in order to give off the notion that they weren't swayed. Society also trains people to defend the current system. 

 

I'm not really in the mood to argue with you logic. I have many times and it goes nowhere because you are so determined to defend your rationalizations to the grave, even if they may be illogical.

 

You can think of the video as you will. I expected no differently from you. And maybe on another note, instead of being so critical of others' and their activism, why don't you actually try to do some sort of advocacy for a change? Let me know how the reception goes for you and if I can't point out potential "flaws" in your approach. In fact no, I'd rather not. You'd say your approach is the best no matter what.


"Why should man expect his prayer for mercy to be heard by What is above him when he shows no mercy to what is under him?" ~Pierre Troubetzkoy
4everaspirit is offline  
#6 Old 03-14-2013, 10:04 AM
Impeach the gangster
 
Capstan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,052

Mod Post- Moving this thread to the Activist Discussion forum.


"There is more wisdom in the song of a bird, than in the speech of a philosopher...." -Oahspe
"The thing is, you cannot judge a race. Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time." -Buster Kilrain, The Killer Angels -Michael Shaara
"Anyone who doesn't believe in miracles isn't a realist." -Billy Wilder
Capstan is offline  
#7 Old 03-14-2013, 09:16 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4everaspirit View Post

You didn't answer my question if you could speak for everyone in the store.
Right....because my comment was not intended to be a statement of fact...it was tongue-in-cheek.

I have no interest in veganism, hence no interest in the advocacy of such. I was pointing out two things 1.) You don't get people to change their mind by being annoying, 2.) Disrupting a store that is supportive of veg*n diets and makes many veg*n foods available to folks....makes no sense. Though I realize that you may have not know about Sprouts, its only in the west.
logic is offline  
#8 Old 03-15-2013, 01:22 AM
I ♥ Vegan Guys ◕‿◕
 
4everaspirit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by logic View Post


Right....because my comment was not intended to be a statement of fact...it was tongue-in-cheek.

I have no interest in veganism, hence no interest in the advocacy of such. I was pointing out two things 1.) You don't get people to change their mind by being annoying, 2.) Disrupting a store that is supportive of veg*n diets and makes many veg*n foods available to folks....makes no sense. Though I realize that you may have not know about Sprouts, its only in the west.

w/e you say logic.................. sheep.gif


"Why should man expect his prayer for mercy to be heard by What is above him when he shows no mercy to what is under him?" ~Pierre Troubetzkoy
4everaspirit is offline  
#9 Old 03-15-2013, 04:00 AM
Not such a Beginner ;)
 
LedBoots's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by logic View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4everaspirit View Post

You didn't answer my question if you could speak for everyone in the store.
Right....because my comment was not intended to be a statement of fact...it was tongue-in-cheek.

I have no interest in veganism, hence no interest in the advocacy of such. I was pointing out two things 1.) You don't get people to change their mind by being annoying, 2.) Disrupting a store that is supportive of veg*n diets and makes many veg*n foods available to folks....makes no sense. Though I realize that you may have not know about Sprouts, its only in the west.
For someone who "has no interest in veganism", you sure comment on vegan issues a lot.
I'm sure that the people in the video were not hoping to just reach a couple of people in your favorite Sprouts store, but far more by putting the video on the web.

Why does 4everaspirit's activism seem to bother you so much? Is it because she eats mock meats?
penny79 and 4everaspirit like this.
LedBoots is offline  
#10 Old 03-15-2013, 12:28 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by LedBoots View Post

For someone who "has no interest in veganism", you sure comment on vegan issues a lot.
Not really, my posts are almost all about nutritional and health issues. I'm interested in plant-based diets and obviously there is some overlap with "vegan issues", but only on dietary matters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LedBoots View Post

I'm sure that the people in the video were not hoping to just reach a couple of people in your favorite Sprouts store, but far more by putting the video on the web.
Why does 4everaspirit's activism seem to bother you so much? Is it because she eats mock meats?
Right they wanted to make a video, but it was just so silly.. And then the store choice was just bizarre....

4everaspirit doesn't bother me,nor do her actions. But I do find most vegan activism to be native...at times even strange and I will comment on it here and there. In this case I just found the video to be rather lame....
logic is offline  
#11 Old 03-15-2013, 12:39 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
As a side note, the people in this video repeat lines about "Freeing animals" and that is just plain silly. When you don't eat meat a rancher doesn't open the gate and let a cow out to run free..... At best, assuming your actions actually effected aggregate meat production, the cow will simply not be born. No animals are being "freed" by vegan activism......its just something that sounds good.
logic is offline  
#12 Old 03-15-2013, 01:45 PM
Veggie Regular
 
vegan cyberpunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Probably some airport
Posts: 1,280

Fact is, this is gonna stay somewhere in the people's mind. You don't expect people to jump and say oh yeah you are so right. You just expect to plant a seed and hope that one day something will grow out of it.

 

Personally i find it very mild, i'v seen people use corpses, much more annoying, much more efficient. Such actions are also cheaper than leafletting at the doors of the shop. If you don't want to stay put on your couch, you act, to give the example of peta, they are clearly pissing of everybody, and making some anti veggie people, yet all in all nobody can deny that they are spreading information and knowledge with great success, which is the base for any change.

 

As for the free, it's pretty obvious that nobody expects the farmer to give them a kiss and a goodbye, the notion of freedom is simply the most adapted to a world of slavery.

4everaspirit likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
https://
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
https://www.autistici.org/en/index.html  https://riseup.net/en

https://pay.reddit.com/r/privacy/wiki/index

vegan cyberpunk is offline  
#13 Old 03-15-2013, 02:35 PM
 
jpaul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 422

Choosing Sprouts or a similar store for the action seems like a logical choice to me. The patrons there might tend to be a little more open to the idea of lessening their consumption of non humans, if not fully becoming vegan. As for the action itself, terrific for a short amount of time. More than likely caused most of the customers to more seriously consider the message than if the action had simply been people standing on the sidewalk just off the store property.

4everaspirit likes this.
jpaul is offline  
#14 Old 03-16-2013, 12:29 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegan cyberpunk View Post

As for the free, it's pretty obvious that nobody expects the farmer to give them a kiss and a goodbye, the notion of freedom is simply the most adapted to a world of slavery.
If nobody expects that, they do they routinely talk about animals being freed? No animals will be freed, at best, they will simply not exist. The animals will never have "freedom", that was taken away from them via thousands of years of selective breeding.

So yeah, talking about "freeing the animals" is childish at best.....
logic is offline  
#15 Old 03-16-2013, 12:44 AM
Not such a Beginner ;)
 
LedBoots's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by logic View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by vegan cyberpunk View Post

As for the free, it's pretty obvious that nobody expects the farmer to give them a kiss and a goodbye, the notion of freedom is simply the most adapted to a world of slavery.
If nobody expects that, they do they routinely talk about animals being freed? No animals will be freed, at best, they will simply not exist. The animals will never have "freedom", that was taken away from them via thousands of years of selective breeding.

So yeah, talking about "freeing the animals" is childish at best.....
I think when people talk about freeing animals, they are usually talking metaphorically. Throwing off the yoke of slavery, no longer living and dying for humans' dinners, you know. I don't think thaat is childish. I think it is kind.
Tom, Capstan and vegan cyberpunk like this.
LedBoots is offline  
#16 Old 03-16-2013, 12:53 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
But you aren't "throwing off the yoke of slavery", they've been enslaved genetically. All you can do is prevent them from living in the first place, extinction...

The motivation is likely to be "kind", but the ideas/language are childish.

Now, when you're talking about the enslavement of wild animals for circus shows, etc, that's a different story. The language makes sense in that case.
logic is offline  
#17 Old 03-16-2013, 01:12 AM
Impeach the gangster
 
Capstan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,052
Quote:
Originally Posted by logic View Post

But you aren't "throwing off the yoke of slavery", they've been enslaved genetically. All you can do is prevent them from living in the first place, extinction...

The motivation is likely to be "kind", but the ideas/language are childish.

Now, when you're talking about the enslavement of wild animals for circus shows, etc, that's a different story. The language makes sense in that case.

 

There's no reason why herds of domestic animals can't be managed back into a wild state. It's being done today with horses, buffalo and other species. The human race, unless it wants to live alone on earth, has an obligation-  to itself-  to do so. Surely you're not suggesting we have no options?

Tom likes this.

"There is more wisdom in the song of a bird, than in the speech of a philosopher...." -Oahspe
"The thing is, you cannot judge a race. Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time." -Buster Kilrain, The Killer Angels -Michael Shaara
"Anyone who doesn't believe in miracles isn't a realist." -Billy Wilder
Capstan is offline  
#18 Old 03-16-2013, 06:39 AM
 
ajswara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 207

I think domesticated animals can be freed as well in the sense that they can be liberated from industries of misery and exploitation and placed in sanctuaries or homes to be cared for.


“Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself.”
-Leo Tolstoy

ajswara is offline  
#19 Old 03-16-2013, 07:28 AM
Not such a Beginner ;)
 
LedBoots's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capstan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by logic View Post

But you aren't "throwing off the yoke of slavery", they've been enslaved genetically. All you can do is prevent them from living in the first place, extinction...

The motivation is likely to be "kind", but the ideas/language are childish.

Now, when you're talking about the enslavement of wild animals for circus shows, etc, that's a different story. The language makes sense in that case.

 

There's no reason why herds of domestic animals can't be managed back into a wild state. It's being done today with horses, buffalo and other species. The human race, unless it wants to live alone on earth, has an obligation-  to itself-  to do so. Surely you're not suggesting we have no options?

Exactly. Many people would rescue an animal or two and not breed them, so the numbers would quickly decrease. It is horrible what humans have bred these animals into, but I don't think it is *childish* to try to save them. Try humane.

Personally, I think it is childish when people say "how sad, all the cows and pigs and chickens will be extinct if we stop growing them in crammed factory farms, slaughtering them, and eating them."

And *many* people that are exposed to veganism and eat a plant-based diet for health or environment end up caring about the animals they no longer eat, or at least recognize how immoral and disgusting eating animals really is. Most health plant-based diet people that I have known do not try to put down AR activists. But there are always exceptions to every rule! smiley.gif
LedBoots is offline  
#20 Old 03-16-2013, 09:02 AM
Tom
Veggie Regular
 
Tom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 5,199
Quote:
Originally Posted by logic View Post


If nobody expects that, they do they routinely talk about animals being freed? No animals will be freed, at best, they will simply not exist. The animals will never have "freedom", that was taken away from them via thousands of years of selective breeding.

So yeah, talking about "freeing the animals" is childish at best.....

It is true that a boycott of the meat industry would ultimately prevent animals from being bred and processed by it in the first place. But as Capstan points out, domestic animals who aren;t currently able to survive on their own could be bred back into a wild-adapted state. Some breeds of cows, sheep, and chickens, for example, would be unable to care for themselves at first- they have been bred to have excessively large udders, unnaturally large amounts of wool, grow too quickly to be healthy, produce excessive eggs, etc. But some breeds do quite well- to the point that they can cause problems in areas where they are not native- pigs and goats, for example.

 

It's also worth mentioning that large herds of animals bred for human purposes may displace native animals. This is a problem in some parts of Africa and North America. For example, there have been conflcts when the native Bison in Yellowstone wander outside the park boundaries, and the local ranchers worry about their cows getting disease from the Bison (brucellosis, I think... gotta google a bit- BRB).

 

ETA: Yes. There has been concern about wild Bison being a reservoir for brucellosis which could infect herds of domestic cattle nearby, but there's some debate about whether this actually happens often.


Peasant (1963-1972) and Fluffy (1970s?-1982- I think of you as 'Ambrose' now)- Your spirits outshone some humans I have known. Be happy forever.
Tom is offline  
#21 Old 03-16-2013, 10:06 AM
Veggie Regular
 
etherea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Scotland
Posts: 263

Any form of civil unrest or protest is worth it if even one person other than the protestors thinks about the issue. As was stated in the video the majority of people are  unaware of conditions in factory farms because they only see the end product. Regarding the boycotting of the meat industry, even if that did lead to the stopping of farming on a large scale, this would not happen overnight. There would be a phasing out period.This in my opinion would allow for the gradual reinsertion into "normal life" for factory held animals.

Ewe Nanny likes this.

There is joy and beauty in everything around us, just take time to see it!

etherea is offline  
#22 Old 03-16-2013, 01:08 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capstan View Post

There's no reason why herds of domestic animals can't be managed back into a wild state. It's being done today with horses, buffalo and other species.
I'm not sure what you mean by "managed back", you can't take a domestic animal and transform it into a wild animal again because its been altered genetically. You'd have to change its genes, but that would only occur with selective breeding over many generations or with genetic engineering (not sure how that would work, because we really don't know the details of their wild ancestors). So are we talking about "re-engineering farms" were we selectively breed cows so they can subsist in the wild again? What would be point though? Domestic cows, pigs, etc all have wild counterparts that still exist in the wild.

Reintroducing a wild animal into the wild is a lot different than trying to reintroduce a domestic animal that has been selectively breed for thousands of years for human use. Just because people exploit an animal doesn't mean that the animal has been domesticated, for example buffaloes aren't really domestic animals. The traditional societies that used them didn't domesticate them, they hunted them, and today's farming of buffalo is recent and very little genetic change has occurred as are result. Of course domestication isn't cut and dry, we've domesticated cats but many breeds can still exist without human aid (e.g., feral cats). But the domestication of cats more recent and was different in character, in particular their ability to hunt was an asset and selected on so we actually improved their ability to survive (especially in human environments) in some ways.

Regardless, as far as the animals people eat goes, there is really no sense in which they can be "freed". They were enslaved genetically many years ago.
logic is offline  
#23 Old 03-16-2013, 01:24 PM
 
jpaul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 422
Quote:
Originally Posted by logic View Post


I'm not sure what you mean by "managed back", you can't take a domestic animal and transform it into a wild animal again because its been altered genetically. You'd have to change its genes, but that would only occur with selective breeding over many generations or with genetic engineering (not sure how that would work, because we really don't know the details of their wild ancestors). So are we talking about "re-engineering farms" were we selectively breed cows so they can subsist in the wild again? What would be point though? Domestic cows, pigs, etc all have wild counterparts that still exist in the wild.

Reintroducing a wild animal into the wild is a lot different than trying to reintroduce a domestic animal that has been selectively breed for thousands of years for human use. Just because people exploit an animal doesn't mean that the animal has been domesticated, for example buffaloes aren't really domestic animals. The traditional societies that used them didn't domesticate them, they hunted them, and today's farming of buffalo is recent and very little genetic change has occurred as are result. Of course domestication isn't cut and dry, we've domesticated cats but many breeds can still exist without human aid (e.g., feral cats). But the domestication of cats more recent and was different in character, in particular their ability to hunt was an asset and selected on so we actually improved their ability to survive (especially in human environments) in some ways.

Regardless, as far as the animals people eat goes, there is really no sense in which they can be "freed". They were enslaved genetically many years ago.

 

To get back on topic, the action was intended to lessen the likelihood of future animal slavery and suffering. And it unquestionably did. The video has been seen by a lot of people and despite your protestations, not everyone shares your unenlightened view that animal rights actions are "obnoxious".

4everaspirit likes this.
jpaul is offline  
#24 Old 03-16-2013, 01:26 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by LedBoots View Post

Personally, I think it is childish when people say "how sad, all the cows and pigs and chickens will be extinct if we stop growing them in crammed factory farms, slaughtering them, and eating them."
Not sure if you're trying to refer to me or not, but I've never said it would be "sad" to let domesticated cows, pigs, etc to go extinct. Nor am I suggesting that people should keep consuming them to prevent them from going extinct. Instead, I'm pointing out that the language many AR folks use is childish and what we are really talking about is the extinction of these domestic animals. These animals should be extinct, whatever advantage they gave some people in the past clearly doesn't apply to modern civilizations with millions and millions of residents.

As a side note, the current level of meat consumption is actually rather new to civilization. Historically meat consumption was rather low in civilizations because it was such an inefficient (and hence costly) source of food, the only people with access to high meat diets were the upper class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom View Post

domestic animals who aren;t currently able to survive on their own could be bred back into a wild-adapted state. Some breeds of cows, sheep, and chickens, for example, would be unable to care for themselves at first- they have been bred to have excessively large udders, unnaturally large amounts of wool, grow too quickly to be healthy, produce excessive eggs, etc.
Yes, they could, but this would be a lengthy selectively breeding operation. We've been selectively breeding cattle for ~8,000 years, reversing that would take a long time. And as I mentioned in my other post, what is the point? You aren't "saving" any individual animals, you're just creating a new breed that can better survive in the wild. Why would artificially introducing a new breed into the wild be a good thing?

Extinction is the only thing that makes sense, but I guess talking about the need to make domestic cows, etc extinct doesn't sound as cheerful as "saving the animals".
logic is offline  
#25 Old 03-16-2013, 01:31 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpaul View Post

To get back on topic, the action was intended to lessen the likelihood of future animal slavery and suffering. And it unquestionably did. The video has been seen by a lot of people and despite your protestations, not everyone shares your unenlightened view that animal rights actions are "obnoxious".
The video hasn't been viewed much and if the comments are any indication, its mostly been viewed by people that are already in agreement. A lot of these things are just echo chambers, they aren't doing anything to get people outside the room thinking....

Also, I said what these particular people did was obnoxious, not that all animal rights activism is obnoxious.
logic is offline  
#26 Old 03-16-2013, 02:41 PM
Impeach the gangster
 
Capstan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,052

If arguing that freeing genetically altered animals is childish, then arguing that slavery cannot be undone is infantile, because your assertions are based on nothing. You haven't a particle of evidence to present. In the case of cows, all they need to survive is food and water. There is plenty of grassland where they can dwell. You seem to be of the opinion that evolution- natural selection-  requires thousands of years to be accomplished. What utter nonsense! Genetic change occurs virtually overnight, in response to alterations in the environment; otherwise, it wouldn't work at all! Within a few short generations, these animals could be living independently again. A brief program of monitoring and assisting these animals would allow them to return to the natural environment.The belief that evolution requires extreme periods of time is a common misconception. You also seem to be of the opinion that what science has artificially altered is not subject to natural selection, that what the hand of man has done is immune from the effects of nature, yet there is no evidence to support this, and frankly, it's a rather ridiculous assumption to make. If you're right, it's too bad, but your opposition to this idea is grounded in an incorrect understanding of nature, and an assumptive overconfidence in science. What's your real opposition? No profitability?


"There is more wisdom in the song of a bird, than in the speech of a philosopher...." -Oahspe
"The thing is, you cannot judge a race. Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time." -Buster Kilrain, The Killer Angels -Michael Shaara
"Anyone who doesn't believe in miracles isn't a realist." -Billy Wilder
Capstan is offline  
#27 Old 03-16-2013, 10:34 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capstan View Post

In the case of cows, all they need to survive is food and water. There is plenty of grassland where they can dwell.
This is fantastical thinking. Yes, an individual cow only needs food and water for its body to survive, but a population of cows requires a lot more. Not to mention that the cow has to actually be able to acquire the food, a difficult task for your typical cow found on factory farms. These cows are breed to be huge and fat as a result and they'd find it nearly impossible to acquire sufficient food. As for plenty of grassland, not even close. If you tried to grass fed all the cows in factory farms it would be an environmental disaster, cows are hard on the environment. I believe Howard Lyman (author of Mad Cowboy) addresses these issues in detail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capstan View Post

You seem to be of the opinion that evolution- natural selection-  requires thousands of years to be accomplished. What utter nonsense! Genetic change occurs virtually overnight, in response to alterations in the environment; otherwise, it wouldn't work at all! Within a few short generations, these animals could be living independently again.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, natural selection is always acting on a species. In terms of the so called "rate of evolution", that is a matter of how many generations it takes for a particular genetic shift to occur. Though you do see cases of relatively rapid changes in a species gene frequency, we are talking about numerous generations. The only time you'll see gene frequency change faster is if there is a great disaster that wipes out a good deal of the population, namely the founder effect. But usually it takes much longer.

With human aid domestic cows could be selectively breed to live wild again, but what would be the point? And how would that save animals that currently find themselves in factory farms? What about the environmental impact? Also there is no reason to believe that natural selection would transform domestic animals back into "wild animals" at the very least the animal needs to be able to survive in the wild...otherwise natural section would wipe it out in a single generation. The cows on factory farms can't survive in the wild.

I'm also unclear about why you're asking me about my real opposition...and profit. My position is as stated and I'm not sure how profit fits in.....
Blobbenstein likes this.
logic is offline  
#28 Old 03-18-2013, 04:00 PM
Tom
Veggie Regular
 
Tom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 5,199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom View Post

It is true that a boycott of the meat industry would ultimately prevent animals from being bred and processed by it in the first place. But as Capstan points out, domestic animals who aren;t currently able to survive on their own could be bred back into a wild-adapted state. Some breeds of cows, sheep, and chickens, for example, would be unable to care for themselves at first- they have been bred to have excessively large udders, unnaturally large amounts of wool, grow too quickly to be healthy, produce excessive eggs, etc. But some breeds do quite well- to the point that they can cause problems in areas where they are not native- pigs and goats, for example.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by logic View Post

Yes, they could, but this would be a lengthy selectively breeding operation. We've been selectively breeding cattle for ~8,000 years, reversing that would take a long time. And as I mentioned in my other post, what is the point? You aren't "saving" any individual animals, you're just creating a new breed that can better survive in the wild. Why would artificially introducing a new breed into the wild be a good thing?

Extinction is the only thing that makes sense, but I guess talking about the need to make domestic cows, etc extinct doesn't sound as cheerful as "saving the animals".

(bold emphasis mine) As I understand it, the domestic ox, Bos taurus, did exist as a wild species- the now-extinct Aurochs of Europe. The wild ancestors/relatives of our domestic cattle no longer exist. If domestic cattle went extinct, it would be a different matter than if, say, domestic cats, rabbits, and pigs went extinct- the Eurasian wildcat, Felis sylvestris, of whom domestic cats are a subspecies, still exists in the wild, and so does the wild European rabbit, from whom our domestic rabbits were bred centuries ago. I'm pretty sure that the present-day wild boar of Eastern Europe is the same species as our domestic pig, except that farmed pigs can more easily revert to the wild state than some of our other farm animal species. Dogs are quite closely related to wolves- I think they're still considered to be the same species.

 

So, this is my argument: the extinction of some domestic animals would amount to the extinction of a species. I'd rather see those species rehabilitated to a natural state. And I think that for cattle, at least, there is still a selection of breeds which are hardy and self-reliant enough that something reasonably close to their wild ancestors could be developed from them, without too much difficulty.

 

Don't get me wrong- I would miss "pet" cats, dogs, and rabbits if they no longer existed. They're AMAZING ANIMALS. But the wild variety of those species would still exist- for themselves.


Peasant (1963-1972) and Fluffy (1970s?-1982- I think of you as 'Ambrose' now)- Your spirits outshone some humans I have known. Be happy forever.
Tom is offline  
#29 Old 03-18-2013, 08:22 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom View Post

I'm pretty sure that the present-day wild boar of Eastern Europe is the same species as our domestic pig, except that farmed pigs can more easily revert to the wild state than some of our other farm animal species. Dogs are quite closely related to wolves- I think they're still considered to be the same species.
The domestic pig is concerned to be a distinct species and likewise for dogs and wolves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom View Post

So, this is my argument: the extinction of some domestic animals would amount to the extinction of a species. I'd rather see those species rehabilitated to a natural state. And I think that for cattle, at least, there is still a selection of breeds which are hardy and self-reliant enough that something reasonably close to their wild ancestors could be developed from them, without too much difficulty.
And what exactly does "rehabilitation to a natural state" mean? You can't reverse engineer domestication, instead you can try to create a new breed that can better survive in the wild. But I'll ask again, what is the point? Why would be introducing a foreign spices into an environment be desirable? How does it help the animals that find themselves in factory farms?

My point here is that talking about "saving animals" is an euphemism. Not only are the animals used for meat production domesticated and hence altered in ways that make survival in the wild difficult, but the animals on factory farms are so damaged psychologically (retardation, etc) that they couldn't be reintroduced even if their genes were amenable to such a thing. Also, even if you were able to create a new breed that could survive in the wild it would be a new breed and the old breed would be extinct, so we're talking about extinction.
logic is offline  
#30 Old 03-19-2013, 05:05 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 774

How is it stupid? They saw something they consider wrong and they protested. The store is selling products of cruelty. If the people were annoyed, good. It’s a good way to get attention. You don’t know it didn’t change anyone’s mind. I consider it noble and would be moved by such an action.

 

Our goal is to end suffering. We could still keep some of these animals in large sanctuaries around the world and ensure they are likely to have pleasant lives with minimal intrusions while breeding far less than there currently are. That will result in a world with much less suffering. And that is our goal.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by logic View Post

Ugh...this is so silly. This doesn't do anything but annoy people...they didn't change anybody's mind. Nothing.

I would add that Sprouts Market, the store they decided to disrupt, has a good selection of vegan products. Why they would pick this store to target is beyond me......its just really stupid.
vegan cyberpunk likes this.
Cato is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off